Minimum wage increase to $15.

[Grumps 3,704]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cfos-watch-for-a-possible-minimum-wage-hike-under-biden-11605177001

Is this a good thing or a bad thing or just a thing?

[DKW 86 7,423]

Yes....

 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

It’s good, until McDonalds replaces you with a self serve kiosk and you lose your job. 

[AUFriction 1,179]

In my opinion, it is a bad idea. The minimum wage is arguably too low, but making that quick of a hike is going to just cause problems.

Problem 1- Businesses with a lot of employees under that amount would immediately reduce the staff. You all ever go into walmart? (I try not to.) Every time I go in there, they have 50 check out lanes, and only like 3 will be open. That will be the way things work with almost every place that employs people at minimum wage. So sure, a few people will get a raise, and a lot of others will likely be laid off. 

Problem 2- There are entry level white collar-ish jobs that pay right around that. (This will show my age a bit.) When I was in grad school with a finished Master's degree and finishing up my PhD, I took my first "real" non-academic job with a county department as an entry analyst. I made about $23 an hour. I took this position since the last minimum wage hike. Everyone I worked with had at least a Master's degree. Is it really fair for someone working at McDonalds to make the same as or that close to people in post-college kinds of positions? It becomes a harder sell to get people into college, and there's already expected to be a shortage of talent for college required positions within the next 10-15 years. 

Problem 3- Increased cost of living. Where companies can't cut employees, they will just raise the price on items to cover the pay increases, which will ironically probably lead to $15 not being an acceptable wage anymore either. 

Problem 4- Minimums are better set by localities anyway. In Alabama, the minimum wage is the federal minimum... $7.25. In New York City, the minimum wage is right now $15. To the untrained eye, it may look like Alabama is not doing enough. But you have to account for cost of living. New York is a much more expensive city. If you convert Alabama's minimum wage to New York's, the equivalent in New York is about $20 an hour. So, given the cost of living in both places, Alabama is actually doing better than New York is. If the federal minimum wage is raised to $15, it will create a burden on businesses in Alabama, where the cost of living is very low. Meanwhile, New York, that needs a minimum wage hike more than we do, won't have to do anything at all. 

So, ultimately, I think it is a bad plan. I don't think that because I somehow think giving minimum wage employees more money is a bad thing. I just don't see it really working the way they intend it to. They'd be better off raising it a little at a time. That will stop some of the knee jerk reactions, and will perhaps encourage state legislatures in states with higher costs of living to consider passing small raises of their own. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

This is one that Hillary had right four years ago.  We're past due to raise the national minimum wage (it's been over 20 years), but an immediate jump to $15 is way too much on businesses.  I think she suggested something like $10 or $11 which makes perfect sense to me.

[aubiefifty 16,791]

i am one of these guys that think even burger workers deserve a big raise as well. all i hear on the right is it is a starter job. pay them a decent wage regardless. those guys stood tall during the pandemic and they were there to feed me when i literally had little or nothing to eat in the house. they claimed those guys "had" to work and did not get to sit home getting an unemployment check and many risked feeding us when they had kids at home they could pass covid to. maybe essential is the word i am looking for. my thoughts on paying fasst food workers has never gone over well with the right and some on the left.

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

i am one of these guys that think even burger workers deserve a big raise as well. all i hear on the right is it is a starter job. pay them a decent wage regardless. those guys stood tall during the pandemic and they were there to feed me when i literally had little or nothing to eat in the house. they claimed those guys "had" to work and did not get to sit home getting an unemployment check and many risked feeding us when they had kids at home they could pass covid to. maybe essential is the word i am looking for. my thoughts on paying fasst food workers has never gone over well with the right and some on the left.

If you're working full time, you should be able to afford rent, transportation, utilities and groceries, period. 

Now, changes probably need to be made elsewhere in addition to just raising minimum wage, but that's where it needs to start. 

Meanwhile, Amazon's revenue jumps 200% and almost none of that is passed on to the low earning employees who have shown up to work all this year. 

There will be systemic change one way or another. Until then, put money in pockets so people can live. 

[DKW 86 7,423]

I have never understood why some take such glee in snearing down at someone else. 

I was working a second job at an Auto Parts Store while my daughter was in college. Now, in the past i have owned my own shops and ran very large service centers. There is just not a lot of money in it. There is nothing wrong with the job. Nothing wrong with anyone that is acting like an adult and paying their bills. I was listed in Management and Titled a "Parts Pro" settled warranties, did training, met with Commercial Sales Accounts, and was expected to be 1-2 in Sales in the Store, even as a part timer.

But no, I had a guy, one of the biggest BS artists I have ever met, that had a perfectly totally inappropriate relationship with his teenage daughter refer to to me as a "clerk." Nevermind that I had a Masters Degree, something he did not. Nevermind that I was working for a Fortune 500 company in IT. Nevermind that I was running my own Computer Services business too. All this he knew. But I was addressed as a  "clerk." He and his buddies decided that since I had a second job at at an Auto Parts store i was nothing but a "clerk." You know what? Even if that was my primary job, it is still an honorable way to make a living. I remember when working at Sears was considered a great job. When owning your own business was considered a great job. When doing productive work was considered to be a good job. 

BTW, the guy wrote for the local Bargain Hunter and had an OTR Sales job, NTTAWWT. But I was a "clerk" and clerks are an abhorrent species apparently in his eyes. The guy and his friends had a grand ole time trying to run me down for being a "clerk." 

[ValleyTiger 2,894]

16 hours ago, AUFriction said:

In my opinion, it is a bad idea. The minimum wage is arguably too low, but making that quick of a hike is going to just cause problems.

Problem 1- Businesses with a lot of employees under that amount would immediately reduce the staff. You all ever go into walmart? (I try not to.) Every time I go in there, they have 50 check out lanes, and only like 3 will be open. That will be the way things work with almost every place that employs people at minimum wage. So sure, a few people will get a raise, and a lot of others will likely be laid off. 

Problem 2- There are entry level white collar-ish jobs that pay right around that. (This will show my age a bit.) When I was in grad school with a finished Master's degree and finishing up my PhD, I took my first "real" non-academic job with a county department as an entry analyst. I made about $23 an hour. I took this position since the last minimum wage hike. Everyone I worked with had at least a Master's degree. Is it really fair for someone working at McDonalds to make the same as or that close to people in post-college kinds of positions? It becomes a harder sell to get people into college, and there's already expected to be a shortage of talent for college required positions within the next 10-15 years. 

Problem 3- Increased cost of living. Where companies can't cut employees, they will just raise the price on items to cover the pay increases, which will ironically probably lead to $15 not being an acceptable wage anymore either. 

Problem 4- Minimums are better set by localities anyway. In Alabama, the minimum wage is the federal minimum... $7.25. In New York City, the minimum wage is right now $15. To the untrained eye, it may look like Alabama is not doing enough. But you have to account for cost of living. New York is a much more expensive city. If you convert Alabama's minimum wage to New York's, the equivalent in New York is about $20 an hour. So, given the cost of living in both places, Alabama is actually doing better than New York is. If the federal minimum wage is raised to $15, it will create a burden on businesses in Alabama, where the cost of living is very low. Meanwhile, New York, that needs a minimum wage hike more than we do, won't have to do anything at all. 

So, ultimately, I think it is a bad plan. I don't think that because I somehow think giving minimum wage employees more money is a bad thing. I just don't see it really working the way they intend it to. They'd be better off raising it a little at a time. That will stop some of the knee jerk reactions, and will perhaps encourage state legislatures in states with higher costs of living to consider passing small raises of their own. 

[CleCoTiger 1,957]

It's a good thing. Raising the minimum wage to something close to what it ought to be when adjusted for inflation will help working class people at all levels. And contra the doom and gloomers, increases in the minimum wage have never led to large increases in inflation. Believe it or not, corporations have options other than raising prices. For example, reining in executive pay and also settling for a little less profit. So...yay!

[aubiefifty 16,791]

On 11/18/2020 at 9:30 PM, wdefromtx said:

It’s good, until McDonalds replaces you with a self serve kiosk and you lose your job. 

i have a musician friend i took to walmart to buy a new microwave since he and his wife are poor and struggle{she was thrown through the windshield of a car} and he only has five percent vision in one eye. covid has killed any chance of making extra money, anyway this was in oxford alabama last saturday. they had two lines open with real cashiers and the self check out stuff. there were over a hundred people in line waiting to check out. and this is during a spike in covid. i will never give them my business again. this is pure greed and they could care less. i am still mad.

[alexava 6,973]

@Grumpsi don’t do much politics lately. But scrolled a little today and saw this thread. Ironically a man I have been paying very much attention to for the past several months actually passed away today. If you are not familiar with him he is amazing. 

 

[TitanTiger 20,482]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:12 AM, McLoofus said:

If you're working full time, you should be able to afford rent, transportation, utilities and groceries, period. 

Now, changes probably need to be made elsewhere in addition to just raising minimum wage, but that's where it needs to start. 

Meanwhile, Amazon's revenue jumps 200% and almost none of that is passed on to the low earning employees who have shown up to work all this year. 

There will be systemic change one way or another. Until then, put money in pockets so people can live. 

All of this.  A full time job should afford you the ability to actually live - and I'd add clothing to your list.  It may not afford you the kind of home, car, and food you'd like to have.  You might not get to have an iPhone 12 Pro Max or get to eat out in a nicer restaurant.  You may shop for your clothes at Walmart and thrift stores instead of fancier places.  But it should allow you to do at least these bare minimum of things.

[alexava 6,973]

4 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

All of this.  A full time job should afford you the ability to actually live - and I'd add clothing to your list.  It may not afford you the kind of home, car, and food you'd like to have.  You might not get to have an iPhone 12 Pro Max or get to eat out in a nicer restaurant.  You may shop for your clothes at Walmart and thrift stores instead of fancier places.  But it should allow you to do at least these bare minimum of things.

“Should “ is the key word in your last sentence. As Dr. Williams explained, there’s a difference between intentions and results.  I’m listening to both sides on these issues now. 

[TitanTiger 20,482]

4 minutes ago, alexava said:

“Should “ is the key word in your last sentence. As Dr. Williams explained, there’s a difference between intentions and results.  I’m listening to both sides on these issues now. 

No one is talking about someone squandering money here.  What we're saying is that the pay for a full time position ought to be enough to meet basic needs - food, clothing, shelter, utilities, transportation.  Right now, there are a whole lot of full time jobs out there that don't even come close even if you are frugal and that's not how it ought to be.

[McLoofus 35,182]

So we want to talk about "should" and "intentions" when it comes to people that work their asses off but still can't make ends meet but we don't want to talk about it when it comes to the theory of trickle down and corporate tax breaks. Sounds about right. 

By the way, a couple of the things we can do to soften the blow on businesses and not go straight to $15 would be to fund child care and expand public transit. It would be great if folks would talk about these types of things instead of just shooting down raising the minimum wage. 

[alexava 6,973]

8 hours ago, McLoofus said:

So we want to talk about "should" and "intentions" when it comes to people that work their asses off but still can't make ends meet but we don't want to talk about it when it comes to the theory of trickle down and corporate tax breaks. Sounds about right. 

By the way, a couple of the things we can do to soften the blow on businesses and not go straight to $15 would be to fund child care and expand public transit. It would be great if folks would talk about these types of things instead of just shooting down raising the minimum wage. 

There are small businesses where the owners don’t even always make 15 an hour. Yet people voluntarily work for them for barely over half that.
    My wish “intentions “would  be for every job to provide a living. The reality  “ result “ is it would kill the small businesses. Playing right into the hands of big business and China. 
     I prefer to incentivize the bigger business to pay better and keep jobs in the country. Trump could have tied this to the tax cuts he implemented.  
      Either way 7.25 is way too low.  15$ is just not a logical mark for most of the country. 

[Grumps 3,704]

20 hours ago, alexava said:

@Grumpsi don’t do much politics lately. But scrolled a little today and saw this thread. Ironically a man I have been paying very much attention to for the past several months actually passed away today. If you are not familiar with him he is amazing. 

 

Very interesting! Thanks for the post!

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 hours ago, alexava said:

There are small businesses where the owners don’t even always make 15 an hour. Yet people voluntarily work for them for barely over half that.
    My wish “intentions “would  be for every job to provide a living. The reality  “ result “ is it would kill the small businesses. Playing right into the hands of big business and China. 
     I prefer to incentivize the bigger business to pay better and keep jobs in the country. Trump could have tied this to the tax cuts he implemented.  
      Either way 7.25 is way too low.  15$ is just not a logical mark for most of the country. 

Your last point is so important.   $15 an hour is way too much for large swaths of the U.S.  Obviously cities/suburbs have a higher cost of living, but I'm not sure the argument can be made in good faith that minimum wage should be $15 for someone living in New York City vs someone living in Opp, AL.

The standard federal wage needs to go up to about $10-$11.  If a city/municipality wants to go higher, they can.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

8 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

Your last point is so important.   $15 an hour is way too much for large swaths of the U.S.  Obviously cities/suburbs have a higher cost of living, but I'm not sure the argument can be made in good faith that minimum wage should be $15 for someone living in New York City vs someone living in Opp, AL.

The standard federal wage needs to go up to about $10-$11.  If a city/municipality wants to go higher, they can.

How come we don't do a minimum wage that's tied to some sort of cost of living index?  $15 an hour in Iowa Falls, IA is going to go a whole lot farther than $15 an hour in San Francisco.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

How come we don't do a minimum wage that's tied to some sort of cost of living index?  $15 an hour in Iowa Falls, IA is going to go a whole lot farther than $15 an hour in San Francisco.

I don't think we'd ever come to that consensus.  It's why I think the easiest thing to do would be to raise the national standard to something reasonable and let local municipalities implement a higher threshold if they want, like NYC or Seattle have already done.

[McLoofus 35,182]

19 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

I don't think we'd ever come to that consensus.  It's why I think the easiest thing to do would be to raise the national standard to something reasonable and let local municipalities implement a higher threshold if they want, like NYC or Seattle have already done.

That seems like a great place to start. 

Is it a thing to set up mandatory 5-yr (or 6, if better for accommodating congressional terms) reviews, similar to an annual job performance review? Basically build in a plug and play process so they have set parameters off of which they can go by and simply choose the percentage of the "raise", if any? Is something like this already in place and just not being exercised? 

[alexava 6,973]

2 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

I don't think we'd ever come to that consensus.  It's why I think the easiest thing to do would be to raise the national standard to something reasonable and let local municipalities implement a higher threshold if they want, like NYC or Seattle have already done.

A quarter pounder with cheese combo was like 11 dollars in Seattle.  I still don’t think an employee at McDonald’s can live on 15$ an hour in that area. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 hours ago, McLoofus said:

That seems like a great place to start. 

Is it a thing to set up mandatory 5-yr (or 6, if better for accommodating congressional terms) reviews, similar to an annual job performance review? Basically build in a plug and play process so they have set parameters off of which they can go by and simply choose the percentage of the "raise", if any? Is something like this already in place and just not being exercised? 

Not that I'm aware of.  That would be too logical and our government isn't set up for that.

[bigbird 60,525]

2 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

I don't think we'd ever come to that consensus.  It's why I think the easiest thing to do would be to raise the national standard to something reasonable and let local municipalities implement a higher threshold if they want, like NYC or Seattle have already done.

Exactly. IMO, this should be a state issue.  Wages in Wyoming shouldn't be the same as California. Dealing with this Federally puts unnecessary stress and strain on the local level.  While the thought of increasing the minimum wage sounds great, there will be a lot of unforseen and substantial consequences.