CDC Weighs in on vaccines vs immunity from infection

[I_M4_AU 8,130]

58 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

1) I have said repeatedly that everyone should get vaxxed. 

2) I have shared my nephews experience at St Vincents.

The NYT Article above is proving that Antibodies are just as effective if not more effective than vaxxing. essentially the Swedish Method of rushing to Herd Immunity. 

I think you last point about the Swedish Method (the Great Barrington Declaration) is the point we should be taking away here.  The vaccine is a great way of protecting the vulnerable, but it is a given.  

Another question would be; why did *the science* use the media to discredit the Great Barrington Declaration as a viable way to treat the virus?  Ron DeSantis used this method in Florida and never closed down.

Thanks to the NIH and Dr Fauci (the man who would be king) the Great Barrington Declaration was never considered as a viable way to get through this pandemic with as little disruption as possible.  Why anyone would listen to such arrogance from one man is beyond me.

The 1918 flu ended 2 and 1/2 years after it’s beginning with out the technology and vaccines we have today, only relying on natural immunity to gain the required herd immunity.

[SLAG-91 1,496]

If nothing else, and I'll preface this by reiterating my stance against this vaccine mandate...

If a business is going to impose a mandate for this vaccapeutic (very glad mine hasn't...if a business chooses to do it and people/employees vote with their feet, thereby leaving them in the lurch, so be it), then an exemption category for the previously infected needs to be included. Hell, even BSC Germany acknowledges prior infection as equivalent ("vaccinated and recovered").

[alexava 6,974]

This new update has nothing to do with vaccinations vs nothing. I don’t know how it goes so long, (2 pages)with the establishment apologists comparing the two. The new discovery (actually admission) is that natural immunity is superior to vaccine immunity. Making across the board mandates absolutely impractical and pointless. Give it a few months and the cdc will finally admit that adverse effects from vaccines are far more likely for those who already had the virus. 

[alexava 6,974]

History of Natural Immunity:

•Past ~2500 years:
scientific fact

•January 2020 - January 2022:
vilified as a conspiracy theory

•January 20, 2022:
hailed a new political discovery

[SLAG-91 1,496]

Yes, I'm going to keep piling on. Fight me. The flatout refusal of organizations to acknowledge natural immunity has been capricious and vindictive...pretty much dereliction of duty.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-high-cost-of-disparaging-natural-immunity-to-covid-vaccine-mandates-protests-fire-rehire-employment-11643214336?mod=opinion_lead_pos5

[alexava 6,974]

1 hour ago, SLAG-91 said:

Yes, I'm going to keep piling on. Fight me. The flatout refusal of organizations to acknowledge natural immunity has been capricious and vindictive...pretty much dereliction of duty.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-high-cost-of-disparaging-natural-immunity-to-covid-vaccine-mandates-protests-fire-rehire-employment-11643214336?mod=opinion_lead_pos5

There’s going to be a lot of dead bodies on that hill. 

[EverettSanders 1]

Perhaps the question is a little off-top...Is there anyone who has been vaccinated with pfizer (two doses)? What booster dose did you do? Thanks.

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 hours ago, EverettSanders said:

Perhaps the question is a little off-top...Is there anyone who has been vaccinated with pfizer (two doses)? What booster dose did you do? Thanks.

I am triple pfizer. No adverse effects other than feeling a little groggy the first day after the first poke.

[I_M4_AU 8,130]

COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) — Denmark’s government said Wednesday it will scrap most pandemic restrictions next week, even as neighboring Sweden extended its own measures for another fortnight.

Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen said that as of Feb. 1 Danes will enjoy free access to restaurants, cafes, museums and nightclubs, while mask use will cease to be mandatory.

“We say goodbye to the restrictions and welcome the life we knew before” the pandemic, Frederiksen said. “As of Feb. 1, Denmark will be open.”

Denmark currently requires face masks on public transportation, in shops, for standing clients in restaurant indoor areas, and for people entering hospitals, health care facilities and retirement homes. As of Feb. 1, the government will only recommend mask use in hospitals, health care facilities and homes for the elderly.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-business-sweden-public-health-8650596378aa96b985665d3cf8a979b3

Is the CDC capable of self reflection?  Will Fauci (the man who would be king) allow it?

[TitanTiger 20,568]

On 1/21/2022 at 12:45 PM, I_M4_AU said:

I think you last point about the Swedish Method (the Great Barrington Declaration) is the point we should be taking away here.  The vaccine is a great way of protecting the vulnerable, but it is a given.  

Another question would be; why did *the science* use the media to discredit the Great Barrington Declaration as a viable way to treat the virus?  Ron DeSantis used this method in Florida and never closed down.

Thanks to the NIH and Dr Fauci (the man who would be king) the Great Barrington Declaration was never considered as a viable way to get through this pandemic with as little disruption as possible.  Why anyone would listen to such arrogance from one man is beyond me.

The 1918 flu ended 2 and 1/2 years after it’s beginning with out the technology and vaccines we have today, only relying on natural immunity to gain the required herd immunity.

And killed 50 million people worldwide in the process.

[TitanTiger 20,568]

On 1/21/2022 at 5:46 PM, alexava said:

This new update has nothing to do with vaccinations vs nothing. I don’t know how it goes so long, (2 pages)with the establishment apologists comparing the two. The new discovery (actually admission) is that natural immunity is superior to vaccine immunity. Making across the board mandates absolutely impractical and pointless. Give it a few months and the cdc will finally admit that adverse effects from vaccines are far more likely for those who already had the virus. 

Except none of that is true.

[TitanTiger 20,568]

On 1/27/2022 at 3:36 AM, EverettSanders said:

Perhaps the question is a little off-top...Is there anyone who has been vaccinated with pfizer (two doses)? What booster dose did you do? Thanks.

Pfizer for all three.  Third shot was similar to the second one, but not quite as bad.  I had aches and chills, super tired, for about 12 hours or so the day after I got it.  Felt much better by bedtime and like nothing had happened the next morning.

[I_M4_AU 8,130]

50 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

And killed 50 million people worldwide in the process.

The point being the Spanish flu ended in about 2 and 1/2 years.  With the vaccine being available this time and protecting the vulnerable, as Florida did, we should be close to the coronavirus being endemic with a lot less lives lost.

[TitanTiger 20,568]

35 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

The point being the Spanish flu ended in about 2 and 1/2 years.  With the vaccine being available this time and protecting the vulnerable, as Florida did, we should be close to the coronavirus being endemic with a lot less lives lost.

Point being, that's a high human cost to pay in deference to "natural immunity."  Of course any pandemic can end quicker if you just roll the dice, let everyone get exposed to it, and take whatever it dishes out the best you can.  But that's not the best way to get through one of these things, is it?

[McLoofus 35,182]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Point being, that's a high human cost to pay in deference to "natural immunity."  Of course any pandemic can end quicker if you just roll the dice, let everyone get exposed to it, and take whatever it dishes out the best you can.  But that's not the best way to get through one of these things, is it?

Absolutely insane that they present the natural immunity argument as though there's zero cost associated with it. 

FFS. Two years of this s*** and these people haven't processed a single new piece of data. 

[TitanTiger 20,568]

2 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Absolutely insane that they present the natural immunity argument as though there's zero cost associated with it. 

FFS. Two years of this s*** and these people haven't processed a single new piece of data. 

Even the modified "let the healthy low-risk people get it and protect the vulnerable" is wild.  As if there isn't tons of interaction between these two groups.  You've got workers in hospitals and nursing homes who are young and healthy but around vulnerable patients all day.  You have multigenerational households, children who are primary caregivers for elderly parents, and the list goes on.  It's wishful thinking.

[TitanTiger 20,568]

Not to mention, it's not like Florida is some beacon of lower COVID deaths.  As of yesterday, Florida ranked 18th in the nation in COVID deaths per capita at 300 per 100,000 population.  Of the top 20 in COVID deaths per capita, based on 2020 election results, eleven of them are what you'd call solidly "red" states, four of them could be considered "purple" or swing states (AZ, MI, PA, GA).  Only 5 of the top 20 are "blue" states (NJ, NY, MA, RI, and NM)

COVID Deaths Per 100,000 Population:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/

 

It doesn't seem to me like the strategy of supposed "low-risk" people doing what they want and not getting vaccinated in great numbers is producing great results.

[McLoofus 35,182]

6 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

You've got workers in hospitals and nursing homes who are young and healthy but around vulnerable patients all day.  

Multiple times now we've had home health offices practically crippled by understaffing due to unvaccinated, COVID-positive nurses. These are people who not only endanger themselves in patients' homes- environments over which they have far less control than in a clinical setting- but also in turn endanger all of their highly vulnerable patients. 

But hey, it's a personal decision. No matter than you're going to cough all over your kid and then send them to school with my kid. Who cares that we literally just got informed today that my kid has to quarantine a minimum of 5 days because he was in close contact with your little two legged petrie dish. It's a personal decision.

To be fair, two years in and I'm still not sure if it's the stupidity or the selfishness that bothers me more. So I guess we're all still trying to figure some things out. 

[I_M4_AU 8,130]

31 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Point being, that's a high human cost to pay in deference to "natural immunity."  Of course any pandemic can end quicker if you just roll the dice, let everyone get exposed to it, and take whatever it dishes out the best you can.  But that's not the best way to get through one of these things, is it?

If zero deaths are the goal the Great Barrington Declaration is not the way to go, but a zero death goal is unattainable.

34 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Even the modified "let the healthy low-risk people get it and protect the vulnerable" is wild.  As if there isn't tons of interaction between these two groups.  You've got workers in hospitals and nursing homes who are young and healthy but around vulnerable patients all day.  You have multigenerational households, children who are primary caregivers for elderly parents, and the list goes on.  It's wishful thinking.

Protecting the vulnerable would include being mindful of your interactions with a person that is vulnerable, would it not?  I have used the peanut allergy analogy before, but if you know you are or a person has a peanut allergy you would use caution around them and they would protect themselves from a person that may not know you have that allergy.

What is wishful thinking is the vaccines were 90+ effective against the spread of the virus and thinking everybody would get the vaccine.  Where are the therapeutics from Pfizer and why aren’t they widely available?

30 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Florida is some beacon of lower COVID deaths.  

Florida is an example of how to live with COVID without wrecking your economy.  It’s not all about the death count.  IMO.

[TitanTiger 20,568]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

If zero deaths are the goal the Great Barrington Declaration is not the way to go, but a zero death goal is unattainable.

But no one was suggesting zero deaths.  It's all a management of risk, but the GBD is not the way to go not because it fails to attain "zero deaths" but because the death rates that would result are too high.

 

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

Protecting the vulnerable would include being mindful of your interactions with a person that is vulnerable, would it not?  I have used the peanut allergy analogy before, but if you know you are or a person has a peanut allergy you would use caution around them and they would protect themselves from a person that may not know you have that allergy.

We couldn't get ******* nurses and other healthcare workers who work with vulnerable populations to agree to be vaccinated and they and the groups fought tooth and nail to prevent their employers from mandating vaccinations.  And you think we're a population prone to being "mindful?"  Have you slept through the last two years?

 

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

What is wishful thinking is the vaccines were 90+ effective against the spread of the virus and thinking everybody would get the vaccine.  Where are the therapeutics from Pfizer and why aren’t they widely available?

They were 90+% effective at contracting and spreading the virus initially.  The variants have since lowered that number.  But yes, it is wishful thinking to believe that Americans who bought into things like QAnon and "Stop the Steal" and all the other conspiracy bull**** over the previous 5 years would opt for the best defense against COVID outside of literally living in a cave.   

The therapeutics literally just got approved a month ago and are in the stage of ramping up production.  You can't just crank stuff out on a dime.

 

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

Florida is an example of how to live with COVID without wrecking your economy.  It’s not all about the death count.  IMO.

The death rate is pretty damn important given the finality of death and all.

The point was that Florida hasn't done anything except just say "**** it" and let the chips fall.  And their results (nor the other states like them who pursued similar strategies) don't indicate it's a great way to manage things in a pandemic.  And before you lurch to another one of your strawman extremes, not I'm not proposing the polar opposite where we all hide in our homes for six months and don't see anyone.  But this GBD strategy isn't workable.

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

16 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

The point was that Florida hasn't done anything except just say "**** it" and let the chips fall.  And their results (nor the other states like them who pursued similar strategies) don't indicate it's a great way to manage things in a pandemic.

Florida had monoclonal antibody treatment sites set up but the FDA has now revoked the emergency use of the treatment forcing Florida to shut down the sites. The argument for doing so is because the treatments aren't effective against omicron. Yet the same argument somehow isn't made against the vaccines even though they're also not effective against omicron. 

Israel has been ahead of the U.S. in vaccination rate and also rolling out boosters. They just put out a study showing a 4th shot/booster is still less effective against omicron. 

https://www.yahoo.com/now/1-israeli-study-shows-4th-163835474.html

[ShocksMyBrain 9,394]

On 1/27/2022 at 3:36 AM, EverettSanders said:

Perhaps the question is a little off-top...Is there anyone who has been vaccinated with pfizer (two doses)? What booster dose did you do? Thanks.

Pfizer x3. Booster gave me a sore arm. 

[TitanTiger 20,568]

6 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Florida had monoclonal antibody treatment sites set up but the FDA has now revoked the emergency use of the treatment forcing Florida to shut down the sites. The argument for doing so is because the treatments aren't effective against omicron. Yet the same argument somehow isn't made against the vaccines even though they're also not effective against omicron. 

Israel has been ahead of the U.S. in vaccination rate and also rolling out boosters. They just put out a study showing a 4th shot/booster is still less effective against omicron. 

https://www.yahoo.com/now/1-israeli-study-shows-4th-163835474.html

What are you taking about?  The monoclonal antibodies don’t work to reduce symptoms and help people get better with Omicron. The vaccines actually still do help with those things. The only thing that’s reduced significantly in effectiveness is preventing infection to begin with. 

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

53 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

What are you taking about?  The monoclonal antibodies don’t work to reduce symptoms and help people get better with Omicron. The vaccines actually still do help with those things. The only thing that’s reduced significantly in effectiveness is preventing infection to begin with. 

The vaccines do help some to reduce symptoms with Omicron sure, but It's still a lot less effective for Omicron than it is the other variants. The Omicron variant is by far the most vaccine resistant of all the variants. As Israel is reporting, even a 4th shot is still not effective at preventing infection.

[TitanTiger 20,568]

26 minutes ago, Auburnfan91 said:

The vaccines do help some to reduce symptoms with Omicron sure, but It's still a lot less effective for Omicron than it is the other variants. The Omicron variant is by far the most vaccine resistant of all the variants. As Israel is reporting, even a 4th shot is still not effective at preventing infection.

You’re still conflating two different things and not making the point you think you are.