CDC Weighs in on vaccines vs immunity from infection

[TitanTiger 20,510]

CDC finds immunity from vaccines is more consistent than from infection, but both last at least six months

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has weighed in for the first time in a detailed science report released with little fanfare Friday evening. Reviewing scores of research studies and its own unpublished data, the agency found that both infection-induced and vaccine-induced immunity are durable for at least six months — but that vaccines are more consistent in their protection and offer a huge boost in antibodies for people previously infected.

In comparing the two types of immunity, scientists said research shows vaccination provides a “higher, more robust, and more consistent level of immunity to protect people from COVID-19 than infection alone.”

Coronavirus infections can cause severe disease or no symptoms at all, and the CDC found that antibody levels vary widely from one individual to another after an infection. The report also notes that there is no test authorized by the Food and Drug Administration that would enable doctors and the public to reliably measure an individual’s protection from disease. And although higher levels of neutralizing antibodies generally signal higher protection, scientists don’t know precisely what level of antibodies will protect an individual.

The CDC’s bottom line: Given what’s known and not known about immunity, people who have been infected with the virus should still get vaccinated. More than 45 million people in the United States have had confirmed coronavirus infections, and tens of millions more — the exact number is unknown — have had undocumented cases.

The science brief echoes another study, released by the CDC earlier Friday, that the agency said showed a higher level of protection from vaccines than from previous infection alone. That study said vaccinated patients hospitalized with covid-like symptoms were less likely to test positive for the virus than those who had recovered months earlier from a coronavirus infection. In other words, the patients vaccinated against the coronavirus were more likely to have some illness other than covid.

Unvaccinated people were 11 times more likely to die of covid-19, CDC report finds

Immunity from a prior infection has been a vexing issue for the Biden administration as it continues to push vaccinations as the key to ending the pandemic. Some Republican members of Congress have seized on what they term “natural immunity” to push back against the vaccine mandates favored by the White House.

Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) and Rep. Diana Harshbarger (R-Tenn.) have put forward legislation to take such immunity into account. Harshbarger’s Natural Immunity is Real Act would require federal agencies to “acknowledge, accept, agree to truthfully present, and incorporate, the consideration of natural immunity as it pertains to COVID-19 with respect to the individuals subject to the applicable regulations.”

The two lawmakers and co-sponsors of the legislation have argued that the Biden administration must “follow the science” showing that people who have recovered from covid-19, the disease caused by the virus, have durable immunity.

“Now more than ever, we need to pursue every scientific measure — such as natural immunity — that can help mitigate the pandemic without threatening people’s jobs, our economy, or denying Americans access to everyday life activities based on COVID-19 vaccination status,” Harshbarger said in a news release last month announcing the bill.

But the act does not offer any suggestion for how agencies would confirm immunity from prior infections or incorporate such immunity into a vaccine policy.

“The politics are as complicated as the science,” Andrew T. Pavia, a professor of pediatrics and infectious diseases at the University of Utah, said in an email Monday. He said of the new CDC science review, “I think there is a tension between conveying the scientific gray areas and the need to combat the ‘natural infection is better’ misinformation that has taken hold. I think the review threads that needle well.”

In the brief, CDC scientists evaluated more than 90 peer-reviewed studies and preprint publications to understand the level of protection against covid-19 in people who have immunity from prior infection and those with immunity from vaccines. For people who have been infected, multiple studies have shown that vaccination provides a boost in the immune response and further reduces the risk of a repeat infection.

“Although there appears to be varying evidence regarding the relative protection that occurs after surviving COVID-19 as compared with completing vaccination, there is substantial immunologic and increasing epidemiologic evidence that vaccination following infection further increases protection against subsequent illness among those who have been previously infected,” the CDC science brief said.

To complicate the issue further, some strong supporters of vaccinations have said vaccine policies could contemplate a kind of hybrid immunity, generated by a combination of infection and perhaps just one vaccine dose. In some countries, a person who has recovered from covid-19 is considered fully vaccinated after just one dose of a vaccine.

“I think with more data, we might consider one infection equivalent to one immunizing event that could count as one of the two or three doses that people need of their vaccine,” Pavia said in a phone interview.

David Rubin, a pediatrician and director of PolicyLab at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, said he counsels his patients and family members who have had covid infections that they could get by with just one shot of vaccine instead of two to bolster their immunity.

“Consider that a dose of the vaccine,” Rubin said, referring to a coronavirus infection. “If you’ve had it, get at least one dose of the vaccine.”

As of September, France, Germany, Italy and Spain are among more than a dozen countries that recommend that people without underlying health conditions who have already been infected receive one dose of a vaccine if it comes in a two-shot regimen.

But for most countries and the United States, the definition of fully vaccinated does not incorporate previous infection. The White House strategy for ending the pandemic relies heavily on vaccinating as many people as possible, including those who have already had covid-19 or tested positive for the virus.

William Schaffner, an infectious-disease doctor at Vanderbilt University School of Medicine who is a liaison member to the CDC’s panel of independent vaccine advisers, said policies have to be simple enough for officials to implement and for people to understand. He invokes the “KISS” rule: “Keep it simple, stupid.”

And the simple fact is that vaccines improve antibody levels whether a person has been infected or not, Schaffner said.

But some experts argue there needs to be clearer guidance from the CDC on vaccine policy when it comes to people with prior infection because of real-world decisions facing employers.

At the two hospital systems where Pavia works, health-care workers are required to be vaccinated. But officials are grappling with the appropriate requirement for someone who was infected recently, such as in the last three months. Those individuals will have some degree of protection that lasts at last 90 days, Pavia said. But they will need to get vaccinated eventually, he said.

“Do we defer the point at which they have to show proof of vaccination? That’s the ongoing discussion that we’re having,” he said.

“We would like clear guidance from CDC on how to handle previous infection in planning the timing of infection for people who have to be vaccinated,” Pavia said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/11/01/what-works-better-vaccines-or-natural-immunity/

[jj3jordan 2,060]

I guess that is as close to an admission as you’ll ever get from them.

[bigbird 60,580]

[alexava 6,973]

3 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

I guess that is as close to an admission as you’ll ever get from them.

It’s sifted through, bullsheyt to support the stance they have decided to defend at all cost. 

[AUDub 11,182]

I really need to go get my booster. I'm past due. Wife has gotten hers. 

15 minutes ago, alexava said:

It’s sifted through, bullsheyt to support the stance they have decided to defend at all cost. 

And you're a bit of a moron. 

[CoffeeTiger 5,169]

43 minutes ago, alexava said:

It’s sifted through, bullsheyt to support the stance they have decided to defend at all cost. 

It must be exhausting to believe everything the government tells you is some grand disinformation conspiracy meant to hide the real truth. 

[I_M4_AU 7,983]

5 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

And although higher levels of neutralizing antibodies generally signal higher protection, scientists don’t know precisely what level of antibodies will protect an individual.

And there you have it.  If the CDC (Biden) can’t determine what level of antibodies you have, then they can’t determine if you are safe or not.  Makes perfect sense.

5 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

To complicate the issue further, some strong supporters of vaccinations have said vaccine policies could contemplate a kind of hybrid immunity, generated by a combination of infection and perhaps just one vaccine dose.

OK, now there is no excuse for people that have had Covid not to get just one shot for full immunity and keep getting vaccinated every six months for as long as the CDC determines it in the best interest of American’s health.

The timing couldn’t be any better.  The CDC comes out with this report just in time for the Administration to double down on American workers that are not vaccinated and OSHA is about to come out with its rules of engagement concerning unvaccinated workers.

The Department of Labor on Monday said that the Biden administration's vaccinate mandate for businesses, which is being developed by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), will be published soon.

“On November 1, the Office of Management and Budget completed its regulatory review of the emergency temporary standard. The Federal Register will publish the emergency temporary standard in the coming days,” a Labor Department spokesperson said in a statement.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/579504-health-care?utm_source=thehill&utm_medium=widgets&utm_campaign=es_recommended_content

Bottom line:  its a personal choice to get vaccinated.

@CoffeeTiger I used to follow every rule as if my life depended on it.  Now, if the rule is sufficiently political, I have a jaundice view of these things.

No more 🐑 for me and I’m vaccinated.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

6 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

And there you have it.  If the CDC (Biden) can’t determine what level of antibodies you have, then they can’t determine if you are safe or not.  Makes perfect sense.

Dummy.  This is true of every vaccine in history.  They measure and get an average but, yes, protection can vary from individual to individual based on each person's immune system.  Severely immunocompromised people benefit from the vaccine but will not get as robust the protection that people with healthy, normally functioning immune systems will get.  Stop acting like this is some smoking gun.  All you're doing is broadcasting your ignorance.

 

6 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

OK, now there is no excuse for people that have had Covid not to get just one shot for full immunity and keep getting vaccinated every six months for as long as the CDC determines it in the best interest of American’s health.

The timing couldn’t be any better.  The CDC comes out with this report just in time for the Administration to double down on American workers that are not vaccinated and OSHA is about to come out with its rules of engagement concerning unvaccinated workers.

The Department of Labor on Monday said that the Biden administration's vaccinate mandate for businesses, which is being developed by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), will be published soon.

“On November 1, the Office of Management and Budget completed its regulatory review of the emergency temporary standard. The Federal Register will publish the emergency temporary standard in the coming days,” a Labor Department spokesperson said in a statement.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/579504-health-care?utm_source=thehill&utm_medium=widgets&utm_campaign=es_recommended_content

Bottom line:  its a personal choice to get vaccinated.

@CoffeeTiger I used to follow every rule as if my life depended on it.  Now, if the rule is sufficiently political, I have a jaundice view of these things.

No more 🐑 for me and I’m vaccinated.

You sound like a nut.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

21 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

It must be exhausting to believe everything the government tells you is some grand disinformation conspiracy meant to hide the real truth. 

It's like an entire swath of the right end of the political spectrum secretly went and got a lobotomy.  It's like talking to flat earthers.

[I_M4_AU 7,983]

36 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

This is true of every vaccine in history.

I’m sure this is true, however, this is the first time the US Government threatened its citizens with their livelihood if they don’t get vaccinated.  People who have severely immunocompromised systems should protect themselves, no argument here.  Covid has been a particularly deadly virus, but we have learned to live with it, cases and deaths are decreasing and until a new variant appears it looks like we are going in the right direction.  So why double down on control of your citizens?

You don’t find it curious that the CDC came out with its findings after the two Senators introduced a bill trying to have people get credit for natural immunity?  You don’t find it curious that OSHA will release its guidelines for the Covid mandate in the coming days when there have been disruptions in service in a couple of areas in the country?

I don’t understand the fascination with compliance to a doddering old fool.

Edited November 2, 2021 by I_M4_AU

[TitanTiger 20,510]

32 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I’m sure this is true, however, this is the first time the US Government threatened its citizens with their livelihood if they don’t get vaccinated.  

Not the federal government nationwide, but various states have.  And the Supreme Court has upheld that power.  Which is why Biden's executive order could only mandate it for federal employees (and private companies can opt for regular testing).

Also, thethe US military.  And that's on top of basically all states having vaccine mandates for school children and college students.

https://www.governing.com/now/the-long-history-of-mandated-vaccines-in-the-united-states

 

Quote

People who have severely immunocompromised systems should protect themselves, no argument here.  Covid has been a particularly deadly virus, but we have learned to live with it, cases and deaths are decreasing and until a new variant appears it looks like we are going in the right direction.  So why double down on control of your citizens?

It's only "control" to people who are buying into nut farm conspiracies.

 

Quote

You don’t find it curious that the CDC came out with its findings after the two Senators introduced a bill trying to have people get credit for natural immunity?  You don’t find it curious that OSHA will release its guidelines for the Covid mandate in the coming days when there have been disruptions in service in a couple of areas in the country?

They didn't just "come out" with it.  Normals actually have to take time to study scientific research on this stuff.  The scientists and experts reviewed over 90 peer-reviewed studies and preprints to draw these conclusions.  That's not light weekend reading.  You yokels think everything should move at the speed of hair-on-fire wackos on Fox and Newsmax.  That's not how responsible people operate.

[I_M4_AU 7,983]

8 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Not the federal government nationwide, but various states have.

The federal government is about to go nationwide with the OSHA guidelines about to come out.  Of course, that’s only for corporations with over 100 people, but that is over 100 million citizens.  I understand that mandates have been in place for a long time, but they have not come with such a drastic consequence.

 

10 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

federal employees.

And contractors such as all the airlines.

15 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

It's only "control" to people who are buying into nut farm conspiracies.

What would you call it when your threatening people that their livelihood will be the consequence for not complying?

17 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

They didn't just "come out" with it.  Normals actually have to take time to study scientific research on this stuff.  The scientists and experts reviewed over 90 peer-reviewed studies and preprints to draw these conclusions.  That's not light weekend reading.  You yokels think everything should move at the speed of hair-on-fire wackos on Fox and Newsmax.  That's not how responsible people operate.

This article from PBS was in March 25th of this year and echo a lot of what the CDC has stated in your article.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-you-should-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-even-if-youve-already-had-the-coronavirus

I would think that the CDC has been looking into natural immunity for a while and not just over a weekend, in fact its been almost 7 months.  Curious isn’t it?

[TitanTiger 20,510]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

The federal government is about to go nationwide with the OSHA guidelines about to come out.  Of course, that’s only for corporations with over 100 people, but that is over 100 million citizens.  I understand that mandates have been in place for a long time, but they have not come with such a drastic consequence.

And contractors such as all the airlines.

What would you call it when your threatening people that their livelihood will be the consequence for not complying?

They aren't threatened with their livelihood.  They can get tested frequently if they persist in disbelieving science and buying into quackery.  Unless their employer says they have to be vaccinated, which in that case, sorry but that's a condition of working for a company just like a dress code or other requirements.

 

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

This article from PBS was in March 25th of this year and echo a lot of what the CDC has stated in your article.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-you-should-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-even-if-youve-already-had-the-coronavirus

I would think that the CDC has been looking into natural immunity for a while and not just over a weekend, in fact its been almost 7 months.  Curious isn’t it?

No, not really.  They were speaking more from past experience with previous vaccines and diseases in the early days of this discussion.  The CDC's guidance is after they've had time to review 90 peer-reviewed studies.  It's great that the studies confirmed what we already suspected, but you still do the studies and review them in aggregate to make definitive statements.

[I_M4_AU 7,983]

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

They aren't threatened with their livelihood.  They can get tested frequently if they persist in disbelieving science and buying into quackery.  Unless their employer says they have to be vaccinated, which in that case, sorry but that's a condition of working for a company just like a dress code or other requirements.

Below is the OSHA fines for non compliance to the vaccine mandate ;

https://www.osha.gov/penalties

Basically, $13,653 for each occurrence and $136,532 for willful or repeat offenders.

Congress is contemplating an increase in fines:

The increased fines on employers could run as high as $70,000 for serious infractions, and $700,000 for willful or repeated violations—almost three-quarters of a million dollars for each fine. If enacted into law, vax enforcement could bankrupt non-compliant companies even more quickly than the $14,000 OSHA fine anticipated under Biden’s announced mandate.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/09/28/bidens-vax-mandate-to-be-enforced-by-fining-companies-70000-to-700000/?sh=23de9bd01c0d

Basically, corporations have no choice but to add the vaccine as a condition for working for the company.  The companies are willing participants just to avoid fines.  No one will hire an employee that hasn’t been vaccinated for fear of bankruptcy.  A company doesn’t get fined for a dress code violation in that amount.  The employees know this and feel like they are being extorted.

Call it what you will, but they very well could loose their livelihood by making a medical choice we should all hold dear.  

[TitanTiger 20,510]

10 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Below is the OSHA fines for non compliance to the vaccine mandate ;

https://www.osha.gov/penalties

Basically, $13,653 for each occurrence and $136,532 for willful or repeat offenders.

That's not how it works.  Those are maximum penalties for serious violators.  The minimum penalties range from $0 to $9750.

And again, these are penalties for non-compliance.  Compliance is not just being vaccinated.  You can do the weekly testing and be in compliance as well.  Non-compliance means you're doing neither - not requiring vaccinations AND not doing weekly testing.

 

Quote

Congress is contemplating an increase in fines:

The increased fines on employers could run as high as $70,000 for serious infractions, and $700,000 for willful or repeated violations—almost three-quarters of a million dollars for each fine. If enacted into law, vax enforcement could bankrupt non-compliant companies even more quickly than the $14,000 OSHA fine anticipated under Biden’s announced mandate.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/09/28/bidens-vax-mandate-to-be-enforced-by-fining-companies-70000-to-700000/?sh=23de9bd01c0d

Basically, corporations have no choice but to add the vaccine as a condition for working for the company.  The companies are willing participants just to avoid fines.  No one will hire an employee that hasn’t been vaccinated for fear of bankruptcy.  A company doesn’t get fined for a dress code violation in that amount.  The employees know this and feel like they are being extorted.

Call it what you will, but they very well could loose their livelihood by making a medical choice we should all hold dear.  

No, they have the choice to make the vaccine a condition or to require weekly testing.  If you don't mind getting a cotton swab stuck up each nostril once a week, no one's going bankrupt or losing their livelihood.

[I_M4_AU 7,983]

28 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

And again, these are penalties for non-compliance.  Compliance is not just being vaccinated.  You can do the weekly testing and be in compliance as well.  Non-compliance means you're doing neither - not requiring vaccinations AND not doing weekly testing.

I would venture to guess most corporations do not want to go through the expense of testing individuals (or may even charge the employee to be tested) and would rather just require the vaccination.  There has been hospitals in New York and North Carolina that have fired their staff and bypassed the requirement to have these people tested.  United Airlines has done the same thing.  That is their choice, but it would not have happened if OHSA was not involved.

Government makes the rules and the corporations decide how they want to implement them to best serve their stockholders.  Employees are not stockholders for the most part.

[alexava 6,973]

Two doctors told me I don’t need the vaccine one told me not to get it. All the hospital workers I know Doctors, nurses, administrators can tell you the breakdown of Covid patients, in ICU, on Ventilators and deaths between vaccinated and unvaccinated. When you ask about those same patients about how many were unvaxed and reinfected, they either don’t know or say none of them. The cdc, fda has avoided this as much as possible. I don’t get why so many people feel they have to defend it.  If you have not had Covid, get vaccinated. If you have, do what you want to do, but you don’t need it. 

[TitanTiger 20,510]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

I would venture to guess most corporations do not want to go through the expense of testing individuals (or may even charge the employee to be tested) and would rather just require the vaccination.  There has been hospitals in New York and North Carolina that have fired their staff and bypassed the requirement to have these people tested.  United Airlines has done the same thing.  That is their choice, but it would not have happened if OHSA was not involved

Government makes the rules and the corporations decide how they want to implement them to best serve their stockholders.  Employees are not stockholders for the most part.

There are a lot of things required by OSHA that many/most corporations don't want to pay for, but it's the cost of doing business.  And some give incentives for employees to get vaccinated like bonuses, extra vacation time, etc.  Or they'll simply pass the cost of the testing on to the employee. It'll depend on the specific company and industry as to whether they just "encourage" vs "require." 

[I_M4_AU 7,983]

8 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

There are a lot of things required by OSHA that many/most corporations don't want to pay for, but it's the cost of doing business.  And some give incentives for employees to get vaccinated like bonuses, extra vacation time, etc.  Or they'll simply pass the cost of the testing on to the employee. It'll depend on the specific company and industry as to whether they just "encourage" vs "require." 

This is true, but OHSA has never had a vaccine requirement before and, even though this particular virus has been aggressive, it seems to be becoming an endemic for all intent and purpose.  I just don’t understand the harness of the mandate.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

8 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

This is true, but OHSA has never had a vaccine requirement before and, even though this particular virus has been aggressive, it seems to be becoming an endemic for all intent and purpose.  I just don’t understand the harness of the mandate.

If that turns out to be the case, then perhaps they can ease off on it.  But I can understand not taking chances and us seeing another surge in December and January like we did last year when we thought *maybe* the worst was behind us.  Until they have better indicators that we aren't going to have another one, this is where they're going to stay.

[ShocksMyBrain 9,368]

3 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

It's like an entire swath of the right end of the political spectrum secretly went and got a lobotomy.  It's like talking to flat earthers.

Thanks Obama. 

[TitanTiger 20,510]

3 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

It's like an entire swath of the right end of the political spectrum secretly went and got a lobotomy.  It's like talking to flat earthers.

Exhibit A:

https://news.yahoo.com/why-qanon-believers-think-jfk-183333654.html

The Venn diagram of these folks and those who peddle nonsensical conspiracies about COVID vaccines is practically a circle.

[AU9377 5,035]

13 hours ago, alexava said:

It’s sifted through, bullsheyt to support the stance they have decided to defend at all cost. 

Have you ever thought that you just might be wrong about this?

[AU9377 5,035]

8 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

This is true, but OHSA has never had a vaccine requirement before and, even though this particular virus has been aggressive, it seems to be becoming an endemic for all intent and purpose.  I just don’t understand the harness of the mandate.

During any kind of previous outbreaks, the vast majority of the public was eager to get vaccinated. Schools routinely didn't even get parental consent before dispensing polio preventing vaccines to their students.  There were counties across the U.S. that vaccinated more than 100,000 people per day.  There was no social media and therefore much fewer nonsensical conspiracy theories and a lot more trust in the family doctor.

[DKW 86 7,440]

I think everyone that can should get vaccinated. I am. My whole family is vaccinated.

But still do I buy everything the CDC Says? UUUUHHHH no. Neither does Jon Stewart.