Russia vs Ukraine

[TexasTiger 12,964]

29 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

I don't believe that means much.  Sure, sanctions are always "effective" in that manner.   Will they really change anything or, will the people of the sanctioned country suffer while their leadership and elites remain in power?

We’ll see. It reduces Russia’s conventional military threat.

[AUFAN78 3,912]

https://warontherocks.com/2022/03/the-russian-sanctions-regime-and-the-risk-of-catastrophic-success/

[homersapien 11,393]

13 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

He's not alone in thinking the U.S. has helped create this situation in Ukraine. Several academics and others who aren't rabidly anti-Russia agree with him.

This war didn't start 2 weeks ago. It started 8 years ago in 2014. The U.S. has been supporting the war in the Donbas region of Ukraine since 2014. It's just now become a full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine. The U.S. media want you to think this all started 2 weeks ago because of Russia invading.

Russia is responsible for invading Ukraine. They're wrong for doing that but the U.S. has played a large part in escalating the conflict. The U.S. backed a coup that overthrew the neutral Ukraine government. The U.S. hand picked an anti-Russia government in Ukraine. That's a fact. No amount of attacking the messenger or source is going to change it.

There was a leaked phone call in February 2014 between then Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discussing who the U.S. wanted to run the Ukraine government.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Also, the Ukrainian government has literal neo-Nazi's as part of their armed forces. The Azov Batallion is a paramilitary organization that NATO countries literally helped train.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/allegations-of-canadian-troops-training-neo-nazis-and-war-criminals-sparks-military-review

The idea that this is a fight between good guys(Ukraine) vs bad guys(Russia) is wrong. In my view and a lot of others views that oppose U.S. involvement, there are no good guys in this conflict. Both sides have bad actors.

The anti-war voices are being shouted down and accused of being pro-Putin for opposing the U.S.'s involvement.

Instead of trying to come to an agreement with Russia that Ukraine remain neutral and not join NATO which would end the war, that path seems to be completely disregarded. The U.S. would rather more Ukrainians suffer in this war than agree to the terms that Russia wants in order to end it. The U.S. appears to be trending toward a Syria style war in Ukraine. They're going to keep sending weapons and arming rebels in Ukraine to keep Russia bogged down in Ukraine for as long as possible. The U.S. doesn't want to end the war.

We are in a dangerous climate. We need cooler heads to prevail.

Putin doesn't want a "neutral" Ukraine.  He wants it to become a part of Russia.

[McLoofus 35,182]

12 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

I don't believe that means much.  Sure, sanctions are always "effective" in that manner.   Will they really change anything or, will the people of the sanctioned country suffer while their leadership and elites remain in power?

That is 100% what is going to happen. 

The questions to me are:

1) Does that turn public sentiment against the war effort, or is Putin able to spin that into "the West are the oppressors and we are the oppressed"? I know that he's already successfully spun it that way for the Russian equivalent of the Fox News crowd, but is there a meaningful "undecided" element in their citizenry? It's clear that younger people in Russia generally don't approve of any of it, but that brings me to my second question which is...

2) Does public sentiment matter in Russia? I really have no idea.

[autigeremt 6,652]

On 3/7/2022 at 10:23 AM, homersapien said:

Yeah, Trump intended to have Zelensky publicly announce an investigation into Biden's son and used weapons as the bait. 

This was clearly a quid pro quo using U.S. foreign policy for Trump's personal political benefit.

The Bidens and Trump used quid pro quo in regards to Ukraine. Hunter had no business being over there.....BUT! The political class always get their way. 

[icanthearyou 4,463]

37 minutes ago, autigeremt said:

The Bidens and Trump used quid pro quo in regards to Ukraine. Hunter had no business being over there.....BUT! The political class always get their way. 

No, not at all equivalent. 

[TexasTiger 12,964]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

That is 100% what is going to happen. 

The questions to me are:

1) Does that turn public sentiment against the war effort, or is Putin able to spin that into "the West are the oppressors and we are the oppressed"? I know that he's already successfully spun it that way for the Russian equivalent of the Fox News crowd, but is there a meaningful "undecided" element in their citizenry? It's clear that younger people in Russia generally don't approve of any of it, but that brings me to my second question which is...

2) Does public sentiment matter in Russia? I really have no idea.

Only matters if they can’t contain it. They will brutally try.

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Only matters if they can’t contain it. They will brutally try.

Indeed. News out of Ukraine this morning confirms that latter part.

It was wrong for folks to underestimate Putin. I personally was wrong to think that this was all theater or a bluff. He was hoping for things to happen the easy way. They didn't, so he's just now turning up the volume. They're crossing over into full blown terrorism. 

[TexasTiger 12,964]

44 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Indeed. News out of Ukraine this morning confirms that latter part.

It was wrong for folks to underestimate Putin. I personally was wrong to think that this was all theater or a bluff. He was hoping for things to happen the easy way. They didn't, so he's just now turning up the volume. They're crossing over into full blown terrorism. 

Done crossed. One of history’s worst humans. Isolated himself from honest feedback and assessments and thought this would be over in a weekend.

[McLoofus 35,182]

9 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Isolated himself from honest feedback and assessments

So that's not a good tendency for a leader, who knew

[TexasTiger 12,964]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

So that's not a good tendency for a leader, who knew

The pandemic has only exacerbated his inclinations.

[autigeremt 6,652]

The Russians are making some mistakes in their brutality. Bombing a maternity ward and a children's hospital will only increase the rhetoric and put pressure on a no-fly zone which is NOT what I think we should be doing. 

[I_M4_AU 7,874]

WHAT WOULD AMERICANS DO?
As the world witnesses what is happening to Ukraine, Americans were asked what they would do if they were in the same position as Ukrainians are now: stay and fight or leave the country? A majority (55 percent) say they would stay and fight, while 38 percent say they would leave the country. Republicans say 68 – 25 percent and independents say 57 – 36 percent they would stay and fight, while Democrats say 52 – 40 percent they would leave the country.

https://poll.qu.edu/images/polling/us/us03072022_ujca44.pdf

 

[autigeremt 6,652]

3 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

WHAT WOULD AMERICANS DO?
As the world witnesses what is happening to Ukraine, Americans were asked what they would do if they were in the same position as Ukrainians are now: stay and fight or leave the country? A majority (55 percent) say they would stay and fight, while 38 percent say they would leave the country. Republicans say 68 – 25 percent and independents say 57 – 36 percent they would stay and fight, while Democrats say 52 – 40 percent they would leave the country.

https://poll.qu.edu/images/polling/us/us03072022_ujca44.pdf

 

Hmmm 

[CoffeeTiger 5,135]

15 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

WHAT WOULD AMERICANS DO?
As the world witnesses what is happening to Ukraine, Americans were asked what they would do if they were in the same position as Ukrainians are now: stay and fight or leave the country? A majority (55 percent) say they would stay and fight, while 38 percent say they would leave the country. Republicans say 68 – 25 percent and independents say 57 – 36 percent they would stay and fight, while Democrats say 52 – 40 percent they would leave the country.

https://poll.qu.edu/images/polling/us/us03072022_ujca44.pdf

 

 

Either means that Republicans are more brave and patriotic or that Democrats are more genuine and honest in what they would actually do. 

 

Keep in mind the last time the world saw Republicans, they were attacking our nations capitol...not defending it. 

 

Edit: @auburn41 No rebuttal? I notice you always 'dislike' my posts, but you never say anything or make an argument of your own. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by CoffeeTiger

[jj3jordan 2,056]

1 hour ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

Either means that Republicans are more brave and patriotic or that Democrats are more genuine and honest in what they would actually do. 

 

Keep in mind the last time the world saw Republicans, they were attacking our nations capitol...not defending it. 

 

Edit: @auburn41 No rebuttal? I notice you always 'dislike' my posts, but you never say anything or make an argument of your own. 

So republicans are lying about being willing to stay and fight? No. It is not that complicated. Republicans love this country way more than democrats.  It simply means that yes, Republicans actually are more brave and patriotic.  Not sure where democrats would go, probably nowhere, just let whomever was invading us rule them. They would rather have a socialist communist style government any way, so welcome to Amerika.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

8 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

So republicans are lying about being willing to stay and fight? No. It is not that complicated. Republicans love this country way more than democrats.  It simply means that yes, Republicans actually are more brave and patriotic.  Not sure where democrats would go, probably nowhere, just let whomever was invading us rule them. They would rather have a socialist communist style government any way, so welcome to Amerika.

Sadly, this is a very good representation of the average level of understanding of politics, government, economics.  Shockingly, it cannot be attributed to ignorance because it is shared by a significant number of educated people.

 

[homersapien 11,393]

23 hours ago, autigeremt said:

The Russians are making some mistakes in their brutality. Bombing a maternity ward and a children's hospital will only increase the rhetoric and put pressure on a no-fly zone which is NOT what I think we should be doing. 

It will also make it increasingly unlikely that Ukraine could ever be absorbed into Russia without a "forever" war as part of the deal.

I think he totally miscalculated this. This has the potential to be the end of Putin.  What will be interesting is what happens to Russia politically if/when that happens?  Can they possibly move toward a more democratic, Europe-oriented country, which (I think) is what most Russians would prefer.

Edited March 10, 2022 by homersapien

[I_M4_AU 7,874]

2 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

Either means that Republicans are more brave and patriotic or that Democrats are more genuine and honest in what they would actually do. 

 

Keep in mind the last time the world saw Republicans, they were attacking our nations capitol...not defending it. 

 

Edit: @auburn41 No rebuttal? I notice you always 'dislike' my posts, but you never say anything or make an argument of your own. 

The January 6th reference is typical.  You and most of your colleagues (comrades) agree that January 6th was the darkest day in American history.   Well, this poll shows me Dems are afraid of their own shadow and, without overwhelming fire power, would wilt in their beliefs if confronted.  Well done.

If the rioters on January 6th actually had a plan that involved overtaking the Capitol, it would have happened.  I believe the rioters are being dealt with aggressively, if this happened in NYC they all would be let go without bail.

About @auburn41, people on here have endured @icanthearyou’s emoji talk for years. The least you can do is suck it up a time or two before whining about it.

[I_M4_AU 7,874]

50 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Sadly, this is a very good representation of the average level of understanding of politics, government, economics.  Shockingly, it cannot be attributed to ignorance because it is shared by a significant number of educated people.

 

Is this your word version of a 🤦‍♀️?

[homersapien 11,393]

On 3/9/2022 at 9:46 AM, autigeremt said:

The Bidens and Trump used quid pro quo in regards to Ukraine. Hunter had no business being over there.....BUT! The political class always get their way. 

What did Biden do to "repay" the Ukrainian company for hiring Hunter?

Biden Sr. had no involvement on what Hunter did.  At least I have seen zero evidence for it.

Sure, it looked bad and at the time, I held Biden Sr. responsible for that (assuming he could have prevented it), which is exactly why I voted for Amy Klobuchar in the Primary.

[homersapien 11,393]

29 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

The January 6th reference is typical.  You and most of your colleagues (comrades) agree that January 6th was the darkest day in American history.   Well, this poll shows me Dems are afraid of their own shadow and, without overwhelming fire power, would wilt in their beliefs if confronted.  Well done.

If the rioters on January 6th actually had a plan that involved overtaking the Capitol, it would have happened.  I believe the rioters are being dealt with aggressively, if this happened in NYC they all would be let go without bail.

About @auburn41, people on here have endured @icanthearyou’s emoji talk for years. The least you can do is suck it up a time or two before whining about it.

Please don't clutter up this (good) thread with such BS. 

Take it to the "Trash talk" thread if you really want to push this nonsense.

Edited March 10, 2022 by homersapien

[CoffeeTiger 5,135]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

The January 6th reference is typical.  You and most of your colleagues (comrades) agree that January 6th was the darkest day in American history.   Well, this poll shows me Dems are afraid of their own shadow and, without overwhelming fire power, would wilt in their beliefs if confronted.  Well done.

 

This poll regarding a completely made up scenario that has close to a 0% chance of happening proves that Republicans are more brave and patriotic. 

 

yeah...like I said...some people will interpret it that way like you have. That's fine...

 

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

If the rioters on January 6th actually had a plan that involved overtaking the Capitol, it would have happened.  I believe the rioters are being dealt with aggressively, if this happened in NYC they all would be let go without bail.

 

uh.huh....Just because the Republican rioters were a group of bumbling idiots doesn't excuse their actions or intentions and motivations. Showing Republicans that there isn't any consequences for their anti-Democratic/anti-government shenanigans isn't how you stop future events of this nature from happening. 

 

 

[AUFAN78 3,912]

1 hour ago, icanthearyou said:

Sadly, this is a very good representation of the average level of understanding of politics, government, economics.  Shockingly, it cannot be attributed to ignorance because it is shared by a significant number of educated people.

 

Good to see you right in there playing along daily. 

[I_M4_AU 7,874]

19 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Please don't clutter up this (good) thread with your partisan BS. 

Take it to the "Trash talk" thread if you really want to push this nonsense.

You’re right.  I should have ignored the whataboutism of the partisan poster and not responded.  I’ll try harder.