Just Asking About Abortion

[jj3jordan 2,056]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Depends on how one defines "baby".  A fetus is not a baby.  It is only a potential baby.

The idea that a brand new diploid cell is literally a person with equivalent rights as the woman is a religious belief. 

On the other hand, the idea that a woman has the autonomy to make decisions about that potential baby - at least up to a point - based on her personal circumstances is a matter of believing in her inherent natural rights as an individual.

A religious belief should never trump a woman's inherent natural rights in this country, as our constitution clearly indicates.

Not according to your leader Joe Biden. Check with him. He called them babies. And it is not a religious belief. It is just a baby. Helpless. Dependent on the mother. A product of the act specifically designed to produce exactly that. Give him or her a chance. Adoption. Why is that so bad?

 

[I_M4_AU 7,857]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

states who are controlled by the religious right will make their own rules.

States that are controlled by liberals will make up their own rules also.  That is what state’s rights are all about.

Do we have equal rights now as Americans?  I can not have a conceal carry permit in NYC and the right to bare arms is in the Constitution.

[homersapien 11,388]

15 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

States that are controlled by liberals will make up their own rules also.  That is what state’s rights are all about.

Do we have equal rights now as Americans?  I can not have a conceal carry permit in NYC and the right to bare arms is in the Constitution.

No, not exactly equal in all respects, such as the example you present.  Likewise, South Carolina grants you the "right" to forgo a helmet while riding a motorcycle (if you are stupid enough to do so); a right which you may not enjoy in adjacent states.

But aside from the issue of what exactly might violate the second amendment ("well regulated militia"),  I would personally never equate the right of autonomy to one's own body to the right to carry a gun. 

Some rights - such as basic personal freedom - are more elemental than others. (Just ask those Harley riders that insist they have the personal freedom not to wear a helmet. )

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by homersapien

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Just give the Republicans what they want. 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/minnesota-gop-candidate-once-said-205345060.html

[Didba 5,256]

On 9/3/2022 at 10:17 AM, TitanTiger said:

I would say no, but not because its incest.  It's because at her age, it isn't safe for her to carry a child to term and deliver it.  Most girls that age haven't had their pelvic bone spread and develop enough to properly deliver a child.  Her permanent health and her life are at serious risk.

 

I always say this: this is the edgiest of edge cases.  Less than 3% of abortions happen for rape, incest and the health/life of the mother combined. I don't think you make broad abortion policy based on outliers.  On top of that, I don't think it's the child's fault that the circumstances of their creation are what they are.  Abortion in this case does nothing to actually bring justice to the situation.  It doesn't punish the rapist(s), it doesn't undo the trauma and horror of the rape for the victim.  It just kills an innocent third party.

From a pragmatic standpoint, if I could save 97% or more of babies with a rape/incest/life of mother exception, I'd take it.  But it's not really the best approach to the situation.

 

I don't think this is a valid reason to kill a preborn child.  Sex may not be ONLY about procreation, but making new people is part of what it's for.  We need to get out of this modern mentality that it's normal to divorce the two completely.  If you're going to engage in sexual activity, you have to be willing to take responsibility for its natural outcomes.

 

Without question, a mother's life is just as valuable as the unborn child's.  If a pregnancy or delivery is going to kill or permanently and seriously damage the mother's health, ending the pregnancy should be legal.  However, the most humane way of doing this should be employed.  This thing of chemically burning or tearing a child limb from limb with forceps and/or vacuums is macabre.  This is a human being we're dealing with and they deserve all the dignity and care that anyone else receives.

 

This is a difficult situation.  I've watched couples walk through situations like this.  What I've seen are the mothers give birth and then hold their child and love them so they could feel human touch in their final moments.  Then they buried them and had the dignity of a funeral.

There are also some implicit assumptions in this question I have a problem with - like whether or not we treat a human being like a human being is contingent on how much it costs.  There are also some ableist assumptions here - that the only lives worth living and giving end of life care for are those who are healthy.

 

This is wrong and needs to change.  Being pro-life has to be bigger than just being pro-birth.  If you want a truly pro-life society then you need to find ways to order it toward human flourishing, especially the flourishing of mothers and children.  You have to address the reasons most women see abortion as a valid or desirable option.

 

 

Great post, and even the one where you say the reason isn’t good enough typically that type of situation is what plan B or other early use abortion pills.  
 

but also my wife and I are in this boat. We don’t want kids and may not ever want kids. We use multiple forms of BC but we wouldn’t know if they failed for months since the shot does away with the menstrual cycle. 

it’s something that is a terrible situation for the parents who do not want to be parents and know for a fact they don’t want to be parents. I guess the real answer is a vasectomy but doctors literally refuse to do that operation for men under 35 without kids. Same with women.  
 

[Didba 5,256]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:49 PM, jj3jordan said:

Well since you brought it up, in Biblical times marriage and babies occurred at very you ages. 13? IDK but not far off.  Ask the baby.  High school girl? Yes  28 y/o? Yes married woman? Yes  Every state allows medical doctors to intervene in this situation Tim Tebow says hi. 28 y/o kid squirter? Yes. All states have support systems. And all have adoption. The conglomeration of your situations covers only a tiny portion of the abortion cases. The vast majority are flat out abortions of convenience with a fully healthy baby. 
 

It is not that hard to understand that babies deserve a chance to live. Give the baby a choice. Every pro abortion advocate has already been born. Lucky for them.

Such a narrow minded perspective. 

[Didba 5,256]

On 9/5/2022 at 7:02 AM, aubiefifty said:

i know exactly what i have seen and i stand by it.what you are promoting is child abuse. there are legit reasons for kids not to have a child. many doctors would disagree with you and pardon me if i take their advice over yours. besides if a man gets a child pregnant that makes him a ped. what if the baby is a female? in most cases you are basically putting the baby at risk of being molested. peds are the gift that keep on giving. and i will side with the child that is already born and breathing in this case anyway than a baby that has not been born yet.and i will never agree the female is pregnant as soon as she is ejaculated in. god makes them carry to term for months for a reason. you eant to stand up for child abuse you go right ahead. and you punish the rapist and not the parents for not wanting to put their child through that crap.

50, I appreciate you, you are an old dude that gets it. Toking one for you now, bud. 

[Didba 5,256]

On 9/5/2022 at 10:36 AM, jj3jordan said:

Are you pretending liberal activists have not worked their way into the judiciary, school systems, and universities?  I had one in 1974 at Auburn. Absolute liberal lunatic. In conservative Alabama. Your reply indicates you agree but just can’t write it down. Disengenuichy. Good call sign for you. 

Every time I read one of your posts it makes me so happy to know that every day there are less and less people that think like you do in this country. 

[Didba 5,256]

On 9/6/2022 at 3:48 PM, I_M4_AU said:

States that are controlled by liberals will make up their own rules also.  That is what state’s rights are all about.

Do we have equal rights now as Americans?  I can not have a conceal carry permit in NYC and the right to bare arms is in the Constitution.

Right to bear arms is not a fundamental right receiving due process protection

[icanthearyou 4,463]

This is going to be the classic, "dog catches car".  Now what?

 

[1716AU 730]

On 9/3/2022 at 12:49 AM, jj3jordan said:

Well since you brought it up, in Biblical times marriage and babies occurred at very you ages. 13? IDK but not far off.  Ask the baby.  High school girl? Yes  28 y/o? Yes married woman? Yes  Every state allows medical doctors to intervene in this situation Tim Tebow says hi. 28 y/o kid squirter? Yes. All states have support systems. And all have adoption. The conglomeration of your situations covers only a tiny portion of the abortion cases. The vast majority are flat out abortions of convenience with a fully healthy baby. 
 

It is not that hard to understand that babies deserve a chance to live. Give the baby a choice. Every pro abortion advocate has already been born. Lucky for them.

That's the stupidest post I have read in quite a while.  And I Have to chat with Alabamians every other day.

Geeze, that is just batshit stupid.

[jj3jordan 2,056]

7 minutes ago, 1716AU said:

That's the stupidest post I have read in quite a while.  And I Have to chat with Alabamians every other day.

Geeze, that is just batshit stupid.

Not surprised you find the truth stupid. Fits you well.

[CoffeeTiger 5,133]

On 9/5/2022 at 8:03 AM, jj3jordan said:

. Who you need to side with are the ones that will punish the pedophile, remove them from the equation, permanently. Not the side that excuses pedophiles, releases them from jail, explains their perversity as just another sexual lifestyle which is “normal” for them. In case you need help you should be on the Republican side. That’s where you belong based on your life history rant.  Democrats have enabled exactly what happened to your family for decades by excusing perverts, evil liberal judges, legislation supporting all kinds of unnatural abnormal sexual behavior and weirdo professors and teachers hell bent on destroying the nuclear family…the family you wanted all your life.

https://apnews.com/article/religion-lawsuits-utah-sexual-abuse-by-clergy-government-and-politics-9f1607f4d308248ebf12dc32f70376ec

While you rant about Democrats enabling pedophiles, here in the real world we have actual proof of Churches and GOP lawmakers conspiring to hide child sex abuse from police and allowing it to continue for years without action. 

There have been several such cases recently, bit In this particular case a Mormon Bishop contacted the Mormon Church sex abuse hotline (in the Mormon Church they require that all members contact the church about sex abuse crimes to get permission from a Church lawyer on if they can go to police or authorities or not.) telling them that a man had confessed to molesting his own daughter. The person the Bishop talked to was a Mormon Church attorney and a GOP State lawmaker who informed the Bishop to NOT report the abuse to authorities because it would 'open him up to being sued' and was protected under clergy/privacy privilege.

 

The abuse was not reported or stopped...The abuser had another child he also abused for years. 

 

The abused children are now suing the Mormon Church and the Church is fighting tooth and nail to keep its records and policies on handling sex abuse secret and non-public. 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by CoffeeTiger

[homersapien 11,388]

On 9/7/2022 at 9:55 PM, Didba said:

it’s something that is a terrible situation for the parents who do not want to be parents and know for a fact they don’t want to be parents. I guess the real answer is a vasectomy but doctors literally refuse to do that operation for men under 35 without kids. Same with women.  
 

I think I was under 35 when I got mine (in the mid 80's) so I'd keep shopping for a doctor if I were you.  It was performed in his office clinic, not a hospital.

Also, they can be reversed with varying degrees of success.  And maybe if you freeze some sperm?

Edited September 9, 2022 by homersapien

[jj3jordan 2,056]

3 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

https://apnews.com/article/religion-lawsuits-utah-sexual-abuse-by-clergy-government-and-politics-9f1607f4d308248ebf12dc32f70376ec

While you rant about Democrats enabling pedophiles, here in the real world we have actual proof of Churches and GOP lawmakers conspiring to hide child sex abuse from police and allowing it to continue for years without action. 

There have been several such cases recently, bit In this particular case a Mormon Bishop contacted the Mormon Church sex abuse hotline (in the Mormon Church they require that all members contact the church about sex abuse crimes to get permission from a Church lawyer on if they can go to police or authorities or not.) telling them that a man had confessed to molesting his own daughter. The person the Bishop talked to was a Mormon Church attorney and a GOP State lawmaker who informed the Bishop to NOT report the abuse to authorities because it would 'open him up to being sued' and was protected under clergy/privacy privilege.

 

The abuse was not reported or stopped...The abuser had another child he also abused for years. 

 

The abused children are now suing the Mormon Church and the Church is fighting tooth and nail to keep its records and policies on handling sex abuse secret and non-public. 

 

 

Sounds like you have an issue with Mormons. A lot of people do.  Sorry you don't think democrats enabling pedophiles is the real world but it is.  If you are a pervert, you are on the wrong side regardless of your political or religious persuasion.

[Didba 5,256]

9 hours ago, homersapien said:

I think I was under 35 when I got mine (in the mid 80's) so I'd keep shopping for a doctor if I were you.  It was performed in his office clinic, not a hospital.

Also, they can be reversed with varying degrees of success.  And maybe if you freeze some sperm?

True, there are options

[icanthearyou 4,463]

16 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Sorry you don't think democrats enabling pedophiles is the real world but it is.

This is an absolute lie.

[jj3jordan 2,056]

5 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

This is an absolute lie.

Bob Menendez says hi.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

3 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Bob Menendez says hi.

I think he is a horrible human being.  However, he does not define the democratic party any more than Dennis Hastert defines the republican party.

So, you are lying.

[aubiefifty 16,807]

On 9/4/2022 at 11:30 PM, jj3jordan said:

Irreparable harm to that child is being sliced into pieces and sucked into a sink. Looking into a mirror is not.

most christians i know tell me that they believe once the seed enters the vagina cavity the lady is pregnant. i mean the seed has been inside four just seconds and they believe the lady is pregnant right then. i call hogwash. that baby has to develop.her is some of what i have found showing both views from the bible.

 

Ancient context

Abortions were known and practiced in biblical times, although the methods differed significantly from modern ones. The second-century Greek physician Soranus, for example, recommended fasting, bloodletting, vigorous jumping and carrying heavy loads as ways to end a pregnancy.

Soranus’ treatise on gynecology acknowledged different schools of thought on the topic. Some medical practitioners forbade the use of any abortive methods. Others permitted them, but not in cases in which they were intended to cover up an adulterous liaison or simply to preserve the mother’s good looks.

 

here is the other point.

 

What the Bible says

The absence of an explicit reference to abortion, however, has not stopped its opponents or proponents from looking to the Bible for support of their positions.

Abortion opponents turn to several biblical texts that, taken together, seem to suggest that human life has value before birth. For example, the Bible opens by describing the creation of humans “in the image of God”: a way to explain the value of human life, presumably even before people are born. Likewise, the Bible describes several important figures, including the prophets Jeremiah and Isaiah and the Christian Apostle Paul, as having being called to their sacred tasks since their time in the womb. Psalm 139 asserts that God “knit me together in my mother’s womb.”

‘The Creation of Adam’ from the Sistine Chapel ceiling in the Vatican, painted by Michelangelo. GraphicaArtis/Getty Images

However, abortion opponents are not the only ones who can appeal to the Bible for support. Supporters can point to other biblical texts that would seem to count as evidence in their favor.

Exodus 21, for example, suggests that a pregnant woman’s life is more valuable than the fetus’s. This text describes a scenario in which men who are fighting strike a pregnant woman and cause her to miscarry. A monetary fine is imposed if the woman suffers no other harm beyond the miscarriage. However, if the woman suffers additional harm, the perpetrator’s punishment is to suffer reciprocal harm, up to life for life.

There are other biblical texts that seem to celebrate the choices that women make for their bodies, even in contexts in which such choices would have been socially shunned. The fifth chapter of the Gospel of Mark, for example, describes a woman with a gynecological ailment that has made her bleed continuously taking a great risk: She reaches out to touch Jesus’ cloak in hopes that it will heal her, even though the touch of a menstruating woman was believed to cause ritual contamination. However, Jesus commends her choice and praises her faith.

Similarly, in the Gospel of John, Jesus’ follower Mary seemingly wastes resources by pouring an entire container of costly ointment on his feet and using her own hair to wipe them – but he defends her decision to break the social taboo around touching an unrelated man so intimately.

Beyond the Bible

In the response to the Supreme Court’s decision, Christians on both sides of the partisan divide have appealed to any number of texts to assert that their particular brand of politics is biblically backed. However, if they claim the Bible specifically condemns or approves of abortion, they are skewing the textual evidence to fit their position.

Of course, Christians can develop their own faith-based arguments about modern political issues, whether or not the Bible speaks directly to them. But it is important to recognize that although the Bible was written at a time when abortion was practiced, it never directly addresses the issue.

[jj3jordan 2,056]

3 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

most christians i know tell me that they believe once the seed enters the vagina cavity the lady is pregnant. i mean the seed has been inside four just seconds and they believe the lady is pregnant right then. i call hogwash. that baby has to develop.her is some of what i have found showing both views from the bible.

 

Ancient context

Abortions were known and practiced in biblical times, although the methods differed significantly from modern ones. The second-century Greek physician Soranus, for example, recommended fasting, bloodletting, vigorous jumping and carrying heavy loads as ways to end a pregnancy.

Soranus’ treatise on gynecology acknowledged different schools of thought on the topic. Some medical practitioners forbade the use of any abortive methods. Others permitted them, but not in cases in which they were intended to cover up an adulterous liaison or simply to preserve the mother’s good looks.

 

here is the other point.

 

What the Bible says

The absence of an explicit reference to abortion, however, has not stopped its opponents or proponents from looking to the Bible for support of their positions.

Abortion opponents turn to several biblical texts that, taken together, seem to suggest that human life has value before birth. For example, the Bible opens by describing the creation of humans “in the image of God”: a way to explain the value of human life, presumably even before people are born. Likewise, the Bible describes several important figures, including the prophets Jeremiah and Isaiah and the Christian Apostle Paul, as having being called to their sacred tasks since their time in the womb. Psalm 139 asserts that God “knit me together in my mother’s womb.”

‘The Creation of Adam’ from the Sistine Chapel ceiling in the Vatican, painted by Michelangelo. GraphicaArtis/Getty Images

However, abortion opponents are not the only ones who can appeal to the Bible for support. Supporters can point to other biblical texts that would seem to count as evidence in their favor.

Exodus 21, for example, suggests that a pregnant woman’s life is more valuable than the fetus’s. This text describes a scenario in which men who are fighting strike a pregnant woman and cause her to miscarry. A monetary fine is imposed if the woman suffers no other harm beyond the miscarriage. However, if the woman suffers additional harm, the perpetrator’s punishment is to suffer reciprocal harm, up to life for life.

There are other biblical texts that seem to celebrate the choices that women make for their bodies, even in contexts in which such choices would have been socially shunned. The fifth chapter of the Gospel of Mark, for example, describes a woman with a gynecological ailment that has made her bleed continuously taking a great risk: She reaches out to touch Jesus’ cloak in hopes that it will heal her, even though the touch of a menstruating woman was believed to cause ritual contamination. However, Jesus commends her choice and praises her faith.

Similarly, in the Gospel of John, Jesus’ follower Mary seemingly wastes resources by pouring an entire container of costly ointment on his feet and using her own hair to wipe them – but he defends her decision to break the social taboo around touching an unrelated man so intimately.

Beyond the Bible

In the response to the Supreme Court’s decision, Christians on both sides of the partisan divide have appealed to any number of texts to assert that their particular brand of politics is biblically backed. However, if they claim the Bible specifically condemns or approves of abortion, they are skewing the textual evidence to fit their position.

Of course, Christians can develop their own faith-based arguments about modern political issues, whether or not the Bible speaks directly to them. But it is important to recognize that although the Bible was written at a time when abortion was practiced, it never directly addresses the issue.

I’ve read all that stuff you posted but none of it even comes close to allowing abortion. It is all a big stretch to tryout apply healing miracles such as the women bleeding to this subject. What is not a stretch is the greeting John the Baptist in utero gave to Mary with Jesus in her womb. The whole first chapter of Luke is good but specifically from Luke 1:39 on for a few paragraphs is pretty enlightening. Also Jeremiah being known in the womb and consecrated in the womb implies life in the womb is important and precious to God.

And it does not alter in any way my statement that you quoted. That’s irrefutable.

 

[icanthearyou 4,463]

God has total dominion over life and death.  Abortion is a political issue, not a religious issue. 

[kennypowers 1,431]

Men control enough in this world.  Can't throw Bible stuff out there.  Not everyone believes that stuff.  Woman's body...woman's choice.  No reason us men should even have an opinion. 

All I know is Texas is the worst state in the country at the moment.  Just in general.  My wife was viscously raped in the early 2000s.  She decided to keep the kid even though the guy was on drugs etc...she was not.  Wrong place wrong time.

Would not have judged her for one second if she decided to abort.  If she decide to abort, she would have found a state or a way as all women in that position stood.   Its all about control to politicians and nothing else. 

[AU9377 4,967]

We could just keep the government out of the bedroom and a female's uterus until the point of viability.

[AU9377 4,967]

On 9/10/2022 at 2:09 PM, jj3jordan said:

I’ve read all that stuff you posted but none of it even comes close to allowing abortion. It is all a big stretch to tryout apply healing miracles such as the women bleeding to this subject. What is not a stretch is the greeting John the Baptist in utero gave to Mary with Jesus in her womb. The whole first chapter of Luke is good but specifically from Luke 1:39 on for a few paragraphs is pretty enlightening. Also Jeremiah being known in the womb and consecrated in the womb implies life in the womb is important and precious to God.

And it does not alter in any way my statement that you quoted. That’s irrefutable.

 

Bring me a mother that is carrying an unborn child that was placed in the womb by God without sexual intercourse and I would agree.