Running Into the Kicker?

[passthebiscuits 6,886]

Early 4th quarter, the punter for Mercer muffs the punt. After running back for the ball about 15 yards, the punter picks up the ball and quickly turns around to kick. The Auburn player runs into the punter at that moment (not roughing) and is called for running into the kicker. Presumably the AU player doesn’t get a finger on the ball. A 5 yard penalty is given—enough for a first down for the Bears.

 

Probably the correct call…but really? Hardly can fault the AU player for running into the kicker as he pursued what was legitimately a fumble. 
 

Am I way off base here? Would the call change if the AU player gets a piece of the ball? Is the punter protected at all times behind the line of scrimmage? Anybody else have a problem with it? 
 

Where are our referees on here to break this down for me? 

[jj3jordan 2,082]

I thought running into the kicker went away after the ball is fumbled for whatever reason. Should have never been called.

[Auctoritas 2,828]

https://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR22.pdf

Basically, it depends on whether the punter was in the tackle box or not. Can't remember where the punter ended up on the play.

Page FI-68 (doc page 217)

VI. Team A is in a scrimmage kick formation. Punter A1 moves laterally two
or three steps to recover a faulty snap, or recovers a snap that went over his
head, and then kicks the ball. B2 contacts A1 in an unsuccessful attempt
to block the kick. RULING: A1 does not automatically lose his protection
in either case unless he carries or possesses the ball outside the tackle box.
While in the tackle box A1 is entitled to protection as in any other kicking
situation. When it becomes obvious that A1 intends to kick in a normal
punting position, defensive players must avoid him after he kicks the ball.
VII. Punter A22 is 15 yards behind the neutral zone when he catches the long
snap, sprints to his right at an angle toward the line of scrimmage, and
runs outside the tackle box. He then stops and punts the ball, and (a) is
immediately hit by a diving B89; or (b) is immediately hit by B89, and B89
is guilty of targeting. RULING: (a) Legal play, no foul by B89. A22 loses
his roughing or running-into protection by carrying the ball outside the
tackle box. (b) Even though the kicker is outside the tackle box, targeting
is a personal foul and the penalty will be enforced at the previous spot.

 

 

[Auctoritas 2,828]

Also, the tackle box is defined as " the rectangular area enclosed by the neutral
zone, the two lines parallel to the sidelines five yards from the snapper, and
Team A’s end line. (See Appendix D.)
b. The tackle box disintegrates when the ball leaves it.

Can't remember if the punter ended up in the endzone or not - if he was, he was not in the tackle box anymore and it should not have been a penalty.

[cbo 7,979]

I'm thinking the rule should be once the punter fumbles, all bets are off. He's a runner at that point. Can't expect a defensive player to hold back if the punter suddenly tries to kick. 

[WarTiger 3,928]

The rule references above cover it.  It was a spot on call.   It's unfortunate in that situation, but the call was right.   I don't have the rule book in front of me right now, but was researching this yesterday.  If the ball had been tipped, it would have only negated the running into the kicker if the player that tipped the ball is also the one that ran into him.   As long as he is still within the tacklebox though, once he begins his motion to kick the ball he is afforded protection until he moves to participate in the play or has a reasonable opportunity to regain his balance.

[jj3jordan 2,082]

2 hours ago, WarTiger said:

The rule references above cover it.  It was a spot on call.   It's unfortunate in that situation, but the call was right.   I don't have the rule book in front of me right now, but was researching this yesterday.  If the ball had been tipped, it would have only negated the running into the kicker if the player that tipped the ball is also the one that ran into him.   As long as he is still within the tacklebox though, once he begins his motion to kick the ball he is afforded protection until he moves to participate in the play or has a reasonable opportunity to regain his balance.

It is covered but not as you determined.

 When it becomes obvious that A1 intends to kick in a normal
punting position, defensive players must avoid him after he kicks the ball.
 

After the bad snap and the chasing/picking up the ball, the punter is no longer in a normal punting position. He did not take the normal punt stride either, just turned and swiped at the ball. Clearly not normal punting position.

[Hank2020 3,226]

9 hours ago, passthebiscuits said:

Early 4th quarter, the punter for Mercer muffs the punt. After running back for the ball about 15 yards, the punter picks up the ball and quickly turns around to kick. The Auburn player runs into the punter at that moment (not roughing) and is called for running into the kicker. Presumably the AU player doesn’t get a finger on the ball. A 5 yard penalty is given—enough for a first down for the Bears.

 

Probably the correct call…but really? Hardly can fault the AU player for running into the kicker as he pursued what was legitimately a fumble. 
 

Am I way off base here? Would the call change if the AU player gets a piece of the ball? Is the punter protected at all times behind the line of scrimmage? Anybody else have a problem with it? 
 

Where are our referees on here to break this down for me? 

Touching the ball would have negated the call.

[Hank2020 3,226]

4 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

It is covered but not as you determined.

 When it becomes obvious that A1 intends to kick in a normal
punting position, defensive players must avoid him after he kicks the ball.
 

After the bad snap and the chasing/picking up the ball, the punter is no longer in a normal punting position. He did not take the normal punt stride either, just turned and swiped at the ball. Clearly not normal punting position.

He was clearly not trying to run or pass so is still protected unless ball is touched.

[AUBwins 10,107]

Still don't know how we didn't get a finger on it lol

[AUinMS9528 1,086]

32 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

It is covered but not as you determined.

 When it becomes obvious that A1 intends to kick in a normal
punting position, defensive players must avoid him after he kicks the ball.
 

After the bad snap and the chasing/picking up the ball, the punter is no longer in a normal punting position. He did not take the normal punt stride either, just turned and swiped at the ball. Clearly not normal punting position.

This makes sense to me.   The rule seems to give some level of ref discretion to define “NORMAL punting position”.   Nothing about that play looked “normal” to me.  

[hikerdns 52]

I understand it meets the rules and was called correctly, but you’d think once it’s fumbled it’s a free for all. 
 

2 questions…on the rugby style punts, if they get outside the tackle box are they far game at a tackle?

-and could a qb (who is about to get sacked) attempted a quick punt to draw a running into the kicker call to get 5yrds needed for a hypothetical 1st down? Not saying it’s a smart call, just wondering if technically possible?

[bigbird 60,580]

2 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

It is covered but not as you determined.

 When it becomes obvious that A1 intends to kick in a normal
punting position, defensive players must avoid him after he kicks the ball.
 

After the bad snap and the chasing/picking up the ball, the punter is no longer in a normal punting position. He did not take the normal punt stride either, just turned and swiped at the ball. Clearly not normal punting position.

Exactly. As soon as he bent over to get it while the ball is on the ground, he's live 

[Didba 5,282]

13 hours ago, cbo said:

I'm thinking the rule should be once the punter fumbles, all bets are off. He's a runner at that point. Can't expect a defensive player to hold back if the punter suddenly tries to kick. 

That’s what I was taught on punt return/block. If he muffs it and starts running you tackle the guy. 

[clwn 336]

They should have just leveled his ass out then picked up the ball is what I was hoping would happen. But once he kicked it he's afforded the protection of not being ran into or touched basically. Really is amazing how they didn't get a piece of that football lol.

[AuburnNTexas 7,198]

The kicker deserves a lot of credit for keeping  his cools and getting a kick away.  I have no issue with us going for the block after that snap. It was just bad luck. The call was correct.

[passthebiscuits 6,886]

6 hours ago, hikerdns said:

I understand it meets the rules and was called correctly, but you’d think once it’s fumbled it’s a free for all. 
 

2 questions…on the rugby style punts, if they get outside the tackle box are they far game at a tackle?

-and could a qb (who is about to get sacked) attempted a quick punt to draw a running into the kicker call to get 5yrds needed for a hypothetical 1st down? Not saying it’s a smart call, just wondering if technically possible?

^this! 

[clwn 336]

8 hours ago, hikerdns said:

I understand it meets the rules and was called correctly, but you’d think once it’s fumbled it’s a free for all. 
 

2 questions…on the rugby style punts, if they get outside the tackle box are they far game at a tackle?

-and could a qb (who is about to get sacked) attempted a quick punt to draw a running into the kicker call to get 5yrds needed for a hypothetical 1st down? Not saying it’s a smart call, just wondering if technically possible?

My understanding is it technically is a free for all every time no matter where they are behind line of scrimmage until the kicker/punter starts to put foot to ball. Once that happens they are afforded the protection. If defense is quick enough and/or kicker(punter) slow and one reaches them they can level them out and get the ball advancing it. So that would answer your questions regarding rugby style. He running around is fair game to be tackled until he starts to kick the ball then you got to aim for the football and not kicker. But if anyone is holding the football during live play they can get tackled. Any rule experts feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that so I can throw a challenge flag lol.

[Auctoritas 2,828]

Roughing or Running Into Kicker or Holder—ARTICLE 16

Approved Ruling 9-1-16

I. A1 catches a long snap and plans to punt from behind his line of scrimmage

but misses the ball, which falls to the ground. A1 is then contacted by B1.

RULING: Team A fumble. No foul by B1. There is no kicker until the ball

is kicked.

 

III. A1, from a nonscrimmage kick formation, makes a quick, unexpected kick

so suddenly that B1 cannot avoid contact. RULING: This is not roughing

or running into the kicker since the rule applies only when it is obvious

that a kick will be made.

[passthebiscuits 6,886]

You guys are the best. Case closed! 

[auskip07 930]

11 hours ago, AUBwins said:

Still don't know how we didn't get a finger on it lol

most of the attempts to get to the punter the whole game were half hearted.  this one caught them by surprise.

Edited September 6, 2022 by auskip07

[au701948 1,009]

18 minutes ago, auskip07 said:

most of the attempts to get to the punter the whole game were half hearted.  this one caught them by surprise.

Totally agree…we only tried  to make the punter “honest” all night. If we had been genuinely rushing the kicker, one of our players would probably have met the punter about the time he first reached the loose ball. Maybe it will be a teaching point.

[AUloggerhead 2,267]

Good to see that the coaching staff made it into a teaching moment.