Hunter Plea Deal Falls Apart

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

17 hours ago, AU9377 said:

You can't go back and cherry pick a case to say that this case should have been handled differently.  No two cases are alike.  All the whining in the world won't change the fact that it is rare for someone to serve jail time as a first offender, provided they have cooperated and paid the past due taxes and penalties.

Yeah, no two cases are alike because I posted an example of the same prosecutors in 2018 gave someone jail time for LESS than what Hunter Biden did. It's obviously not as rare to serve jail time for similar charges as some claim it is.

And those same prosecutors flat out admitted to the judge that there was no precedent for the diversion agreement Hunter received. No one else had ever received such a favorable diversion agreement on similar charges. Yet liberals on here act as though Hunter has actually been treated unfairly because he had to appear in court for his charges.

[AU9377 5,035]

11 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Yeah, no two cases are alike because I posted an example of the same prosecutors in 2018 gave someone jail time for LESS than what Hunter Biden did. It's obviously not as rare to serve jail time for similar charges as some claim it is.

And those same prosecutors flat out admitted to the judge that there was no precedent for the diversion agreement Hunter received. No one else had ever received such a favorable diversion agreement on similar charges. Yet liberals on here act as though Hunter has actually been treated unfairly because he had to appear in court for his charges.

The gun charge is not something that gets charged often, especially when there is no underlying violent crime. That charge may be irrelevant soon, due to challenges being made to its constitutionality.  The judge even pointed that out. She gave both parties 30 days to brief her on the gun charge & the enforcement provisions. 

I'd be willing to bet that the plea is cleaned up and that a new date is set after the 30 days.  

I'm certain that there are 100 more cases that have been charged similarly to this one and 1000 that never got charged. That is why you can't take one case and judge another.

[Mikey 16,724]

4 hours ago, AU9377 said:

That is why you can't take one case and judge another.

One can surely judge one case in which an unprecedented attempt to issue a get out of jail free card is made by the prosecution and that one case happens to be the son of a sitting president and say something stinks. There can be no better example of the two-tiered justice system than this foiled attempt.

[I_M4_AU 7,987]

7 hours ago, AU9377 said:

The gun charge is not something that gets charged often, especially when there is no underlying violent crime. That charge may be irrelevant soon, due to challenges being made to its constitutionality. 

The gun charge is the only reason for the Diversion Agreement.  The Diversion Agreement is the vehicle the defense, with the backing of the DOJ, is using to eradicate any further investigation into Hunter Biden without oversight.

My God this is corrupt and you can’t see it.

[TexasTiger 13,007]

27 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

The gun charge is the only reason for the Diversion Agreement.  The Diversion Agreement is the vehicle the defense, with the backing of the DOJ, is using to eradicate any further investigation into Hunter Biden without oversight.

My God this is corrupt and you can’t see it.

Got a list of when this was charged and the surrounding facts, or just pulling this view from your behind?

[I_M4_AU 7,987]

56 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Got a list of when this was charged and the surrounding facts, or just pulling this view from your behind?

I read the court transcript.  It was charged before the whistleblowers testified and blew up in the plea deal hearing because of that testimony. Do you have a different take?

[TexasTiger 13,007]

5 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I read the court transcript.  It was charged before the whistleblowers testified and blew up in the plea deal hearing because of that testimony. Do you have a different take?

I don’t have any basis to question @AU9377 ‘s take on it. You haven’t demonstrated you do, either.

[I_M4_AU 7,987]

So let’s review:  Hunter Biden’s plea deal is put on hold because the judge wants clarification as to her roll in the diversion agreement that on the face of it seems *creative* and has never been tried before.  Therefore, allowing further investigation into Hunter’s business dealings.  Then Devon Archer is set to testify to the House Oversight committee on Monday and on Saturday the DOJ urges judge to throw him in jail.  Does this sound like a soap opera or what?

 

 

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

The DOJ never released the plea deal. Politico had to take pictures with a phone in order for people to know what was in the plea deal.

By not releasing the plea deal it only further highlights the DOJ's improper handling of this case.

The judge wasn't even able to see Paragraph 15(Agreement Not to Prosecute) until right before the hearing.

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

4 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Got a list of when this was charged and the surrounding facts, or just pulling this view from your behind?

The IRS whistleblowers allegations from their interviews with the House Ways and Means Committee wasn't released until days after the plea agreement was announced. Their testimony with the House Oversight and Accountability Committee wasn't until July 19.

Hunter's plea agreement was announced the same day the charges were filed on June 20.

No one that has been convicted of similar charges that Hunter is charged with has ever had their plea agreement announced the same day the charges were filed. There's no precedent for that.

[TexasTiger 13,007]

43 minutes ago, Auburnfan91 said:

The IRS whistleblowers allegations from their interviews with the House Ways and Means Committee wasn't released until days after the plea agreement was announced. Their testimony with the House Oversight and Accountability Committee wasn't until July 19.

Hunter's plea agreement was announced the same day the charges were filed on June 20.

No one that has been convicted of similar charges that Hunter is charged with has ever had their plea agreement announced the same day the charges were filed. There's no precedent for that.

How many of those cases served time for that charge?

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

How many of those cases served time for that charge?

Bruce Kevin Fleming - 1 year in prison https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-business-personal-taxes-delaware-wilmington-fa7eefcc470693a4854a01406cc43846

Donald Rice - 4 years in prison https://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/2018/06/08/man-stole-elderly-widow-doj-says-prison/685708002/

Ronald Bright - 6 months in prison https://www.justice.gov/archive/usao/de/news/2011/IRS Bright.pdf

Raymond R. Medon - 8 months in prison https://www.plainsite.org/dockets/8500t1zv/delaware-district-court/usa-v-medon/

 

Those are the one's I was able to track down information on through searches. I think it proves that it's not rare for people to serve time for the charge.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Auburnfan91

[TexasTiger 13,007]

1 hour ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Bruce Kevin Fleming - 1 year in prison https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-business-personal-taxes-delaware-wilmington-fa7eefcc470693a4854a01406cc43846

Donald Rice - 4 years in prison https://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/2018/06/08/man-stole-elderly-widow-doj-says-prison/685708002/

Ronald Bright - 6 months in prison https://www.justice.gov/archive/usao/de/news/2011/IRS Bright.pdf

Raymond R. Medon - 8 months in prison https://www.plainsite.org/dockets/8500t1zv/delaware-district-court/usa-v-medon/

 

Those are the one's I was able to track down information on through searches. I think it proves that it's not rare for people to serve time for the charge.

So none remotely similar to this case? Any gun cases? Wasn’t that the initial comparison?

[AU9377 5,035]

5 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

The IRS whistleblowers allegations from their interviews with the House Ways and Means Committee wasn't released until days after the plea agreement was announced. Their testimony with the House Oversight and Accountability Committee wasn't until July 19.

Hunter's plea agreement was announced the same day the charges were filed on June 20.

No one that has been convicted of similar charges that Hunter is charged with has ever had their plea agreement announced the same day the charges were filed. There's no precedent for that.

How many of those cases were investigated for 5 years or more before charges were filed?  Likely none.  I realize that the Republican agenda is to do everything possible to make this seem like a sweetheart deal, but the constant attempts to compare this to other cases does nothing more than tell half truths paraded as gospel.

To really see how in keeping with DOJ policy this case is or isn't many other things would need to be considered.  How many cases were investigated and concluded by the taxpayer paying the back taxes and penalties with no charges being filed?  That number is likely much larger than the number of overall cases wherein charges were filed. 

I seriously doubt that any tax case also resulted in a similar gun charge. 

Statistics are truly like bikinis.... what they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.

[AU9377 5,035]

4 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Bruce Kevin Fleming - 1 year in prison https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-business-personal-taxes-delaware-wilmington-fa7eefcc470693a4854a01406cc43846

Donald Rice - 4 years in prison https://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/2018/06/08/man-stole-elderly-widow-doj-says-prison/685708002/

Ronald Bright - 6 months in prison https://www.justice.gov/archive/usao/de/news/2011/IRS Bright.pdf

Raymond R. Medon - 8 months in prison https://www.plainsite.org/dockets/8500t1zv/delaware-district-court/usa-v-medon/

 

Those are the one's I was able to track down information on through searches. I think it proves that it's not rare for people to serve time for the charge.

Without knowing how many people were never charged, had their charges reduced and other outcomes, it is impossible to conclude where this outcome falls on the scale of possible outcomes. .  We also don't know what factors played into the individual sentences.

My question remains.  How many pounds of flesh does it take to satisfy you all?  The DOJ could charge him with a FARA violation and add a fine.  Does that make it better?  I'm pretty certain that regardless of what is done, the House Republicans will put on a show.

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

21 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

How many of those cases were investigated for 5 years or more before charges were filed?  Likely none.  I realize that the Republican agenda is to do everything possible to make this seem like a sweetheart deal, but the constant attempts to compare this to other cases does nothing more than tell half truths paraded as gospel.

To really see how in keeping with DOJ policy this case is or isn't many other things would need to be considered.  How many cases were investigated and concluded by the taxpayer paying the back taxes and penalties with no charges being filed?  That number is likely much larger than the number of overall cases wherein charges were filed. 

I seriously doubt that any tax case also resulted in a similar gun charge. 

Statistics are truly like bikinis.... what they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.

How many cases did the DOJ not follow their own policy by dropping a felony charge and only keeping the misdemeanor charge instead?

How many cases did the DOJ still have an ongoing investigation after a plea deal was agreed to?

If it wasn't a sweetheart deal why didn't Biden's lawyers keep the original plea deal?

[Mikey 16,724]

And the walls come tumbling down.....

Anybody who won't admit that the Biden DOJ, in collusion with Hunter's lawyers, attempted to slip an unprecedented arrangement past the judge simply won't admit to the truth. It's all there for anybody who opens his eyes to plainly see.

[AU9377 5,035]

10 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

How many cases did the DOJ not follow their own policy by dropping a felony charge and only keeping the misdemeanor charge instead?

How many cases did the DOJ still have an ongoing investigation after a plea deal was agreed to?

If it wasn't a sweetheart deal why didn't Biden's lawyers keep the original plea deal?

The Prosecutor isn't the only party to this that has cards to play.  A defense attorney walks into that court room wanting an immunity agreement that covers everything related to the reason their client is in court that day.  The reason that they pushed back when the agreement started to look more limited was to protect their client. 

The reason there aren't currently more charges is that those charges would be much more difficult to prove at trial for the prosecutor.  The prosecutor being told to pound sand is a way to get him or her to move closer to the outcome that you want.

After recess, the defense team and prosecutor came back on the same page and willing to move forward.  The judge wasn't concerned with the substance of the plea.  She was concerned about the way it was structured.  It appears to me that the prosecutor placed the limited immunity language in the gun charge count out of concern that placing it in the tax evasion counts would later be construed as immunity for everything relating to those charges.  My response would be ... well, DUH...  It would be construed that way because that is what naturally follows from a guilty plea on those charges.  It was very sloppy drafting.\

Like I have said before.  The gun charge is just a catch all charge thrown in.  David Weiss likely thought it would please some to have that charge added.  The reality is that it is a trash charge that doesn't have any connection to this investigation whatsoever.  But for HB admitting to the fact that he was using during the time that he purchased the weapon in his book, the charge would have never been brought.    It was simply low hanging fruit. 

When they come back in a couple months and she accepts the plea agreement, right wing media will once again light their heads on fire and run around screaming. The same people that want to defund the IRS wanting jail time for someone that has paid their back taxes plus penalties is pretty priceless in and of itself.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

I have no idea whether Joe Biden has anything to do with this or, not.  However, it would be the dumbest use of political power since Iran/Contra.

There is just too little to gain.  The amount of money is less than what members of congress make by using insider knowledge to make stock market trades.  And, while that is totally unethical,,, it is legal.

[AU9377 5,035]

22 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

The gun charge is the only reason for the Diversion Agreement.  The Diversion Agreement is the vehicle the defense, with the backing of the DOJ, is using to eradicate any further investigation into Hunter Biden without oversight.

My God this is corrupt and you can’t see it.

The diversion agreement only applies to the gun charge.  The prosecutor's office wrote the agreement.  I agree with the judge that it was sloppy, but nothing in any part of it that I have seen prevents further investigation. 

You seem to think that 5 years isn't enough time to discover any and all evidence of criminal conduct that exists relating to the non payment of tax liabilities.  There is nothing illegal about being in business with foreign investors or being on the board of a foreign corporation. 

I'm not telling you that I like how money flows from foreign individuals and corporations to the family members of elected officials.  I don't.  What I am telling you is that Hunter Biden is hardly the first and, as we know, not the last to use his family name to make millions.  I hear the right trying to make a big deal over how much his dad knew about all of his business deals.  That is also perfectly irrelevant from a criminality standpoint.  Unless you have proof of an act by the elected official that was done in reliance on something of value being transferred, you don't have a crime.  Joe Biden released his tax returns.  In fact, he released 22 years of tax returns.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/31/joe-biden/yes-joe-biden-has-released-22-years-tax-returns-on/

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

On 7/30/2023 at 9:00 AM, Mikey said:

One can surely judge one case in which an unprecedented attempt to issue a get out of jail free card is made by the prosecution and that one case happens to be the son of a sitting president and say something stinks. There can be no better example of the two-tiered justice system than this foiled attempt.

Keep your mouth shut, conservative. We, liberals, are allowed to conjure up fantasies about Trump or whoever we damn well please. But if you ever dare to use even common sense and read between the lines, we will persecute you. Leave Hunter and Joe alone!

[AU9377 5,035]

34 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Keep your mouth shut, conservative. We, liberals, are allowed to conjure up fantasies about Trump or whoever we damn well please. But if you ever dare to use even common sense and read between the lines, we will persecute you. Leave Hunter and Joe alone!

As if that was actually happening. 

1. Donald Trump uses the Hillary email investigation to his benefit.....has crowds cheering "lock her up" without even knowing what she should be locked up for......accusing her of everything imaginable concerning emails and destroying old phones and her blackberry.  How dare she use bleach bit.  She cooperates with the FBI's investigation and sits for a day long interview with agents.  The FBI concludes that there would be no prosecution due to a list of factors, including a lack of intent to transmit classified information, a consideration of the type of classified material discovered and evidence they uncovered that did show efforts having been made to refrain from discussing possible classified documents in email chains routed thru her personal server.  Republicans are outraged that she is not prosecuted, even though there had never been a prosecution of a public official without evidence of an intent to transmit known confidential material in the history of the FBI.

THEN 4 YEARS LATER

Donald Trump is being unfairly prosecuted.

He didn't cooperate when documents relating to national security,marked Top Secret and Confidential, in his possession, were requested to be returned by the National Archives.  He purposefully retained these documents.  He instructed his attorneys to lie about their existence.  He then instructed his employees to destroy video footage showing these documents being moved at his direction. 

Even so, he is the unduly prosecuted?  Seriously?

[DKW 86 7,440]

On 7/30/2023 at 4:33 PM, I_M4_AU said:

So let’s review:  Hunter Biden’s plea deal is put on hold because the judge wants clarification as to her roll in the diversion agreement that on the face of it seems *creative* and has never been tried before.  Therefore, allowing further investigation into Hunter’s business dealings.  Then Devon Archer is set to testify to the House Oversight committee on Monday and on Saturday the DOJ urges judge to throw him in jail.  Does this sound like a soap opera or what?

 

 

Tex, I think he's got you on this one. WTF is going on here? They investigate for however many months and THEN want him thrown in jail on the last working day before he testifies? You may have some crazy idea about whats going on, but it does indeed look VERY VERY Suspicious.

[DKW 86 7,440]

7 hours ago, AU9377 said:

  It was very sloppy drafting.

I think the judge saw thru what was a Sweetheart Deal like no other. She was supposed to rubber stamp this tragedy and she answered "No thanks." I think she saw what most of America is now seeing, that this was a very special deal for HB to get all this off the front pages. It has failed and will now and at least for the next 2 years live in urban legend that Team Biden was making one of those famous backroom deals to shut all this up. 

And I call BS on the drafting being sloppy. These are some of the highest-paid attorneys in DC. They draft exactly what they are told to and don't miss at all. This is their profession and their craft. To wipe all this away as sloppy defies logic.

This reminds me of another really bad plea deal. Anyone else think it smells the same?

https://apnews.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-florida-e2a4431f7319afd037023d9a586aa291#:~:text=Under the 2008 non-prosecution,in a work-release program.

Edited July 31, 2023 by DKW 86

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

6 hours ago, AU9377 said:

As if that was actually happening. 

1. Donald Trump uses the Hillary email investigation to his benefit.....has crowds cheering "lock her up" without even knowing what she should be locked up for......accusing her of everything imaginable concerning emails and destroying old phones and her blackberry.  How dare she use bleach bit.  She cooperates with the FBI's investigation and sits for a day long interview with agents.  The FBI concludes that there would be no prosecution due to a list of factors, including a lack of intent to transmit classified information, a consideration of the type of classified material discovered and evidence they uncovered that did show efforts having been made to refrain from discussing possible classified documents in email chains routed thru her personal server.  Republicans are outraged that she is not prosecuted, even though there had never been a prosecution of a public official without evidence of an intent to transmit known confidential material in the history of the FBI.

THEN 4 YEARS LATER

Donald Trump is being unfairly prosecuted.

He didn't cooperate when documents relating to national security,marked Top Secret and Confidential, in his possession, were requested to be returned by the National Archives.  He purposefully retained these documents.  He instructed his attorneys to lie about their existence.  He then instructed his employees to destroy video footage showing these documents being moved at his direction. 

Even so, he is the unduly prosecuted?  Seriously?

Tell those stupid conservatives to leave Hunter and Joe alone. The "Big Guy" did nothing wrong!