Two More Wild-Eyed Radicals Against Bush

[otterinbham 0]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7072501881.html

War Crimes and the White House

The Dishonor in a Tortured New 'Interpretation' of the Geneva Conventions

By P.X. Kelley and Robert F. Turner

Thursday, July 26, 2007; Page A21

One of us was appointed commandant of the Marine Corps by President Ronald Reagan; the other served as a lawyer in the Reagan White House and has vigorously defended the constitutionality of warrantless National Security Agency wiretaps, presidential signing statements and many other controversial aspects of the war on terrorism. But we cannot in good conscience defend a decision that we believe has compromised our national honor and that may well promote the commission of war crimes by Americans and place at risk the welfare of captured American military forces for generations to come.

The Supreme Court held in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld last summer that all detainees captured in the war on terrorism are protected by Common Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, which prescribes minimum standards of treatment for all persons who are no longer taking an active part in an armed conflict not of an international character. It provides that "in all circumstances" detainees are to be "treated humanely."

This is not just about avoiding "torture." The article expressly prohibits "at any time and in any place whatsoever" any acts of "violence to life and person" or "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment."

Last Friday, the White House issued an executive order attempting to "interpret" Common Article 3 with respect to a controversial CIA interrogation program. The order declares that the CIA program "fully complies with the obligations of the United States under Common Article 3," provided that its interrogation techniques do not violate existing federal statutes (prohibiting such things as torture, mutilation or maiming) and do not constitute "willful and outrageous acts of personal abuse done for the purpose of humiliating or degrading the individual in a manner so serious that any reasonable person, considering the circumstances, would deem the acts to be beyond the bounds of human decency."

In other words, as long as the intent of the abuse is to gather intelligence or to prevent future attacks, and the abuse is not "done for the purpose of humiliating or degrading the individual" -- even if that is an inevitable consequence -- the president has given the CIA carte blanche to engage in "willful and outrageous acts of personal abuse."

It is firmly established in international law that treaties are to be interpreted in "good faith" in accordance with the ordinary meaning of their words and in light of their purpose. It is clear to us that the language in the executive order cannot even arguably be reconciled with America's clear duty under Common Article 3 to treat all detainees humanely and to avoid any acts of violence against their person.

In April of 1793, Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson wrote to President George Washington that nations were to interpret treaty obligations for themselves but that "the tribunal of our consciences remains, and that also of the opinion of the world." He added that "as we respect these, we must see that in judging ourselves we have honestly done the part of impartial and rigorous judges."

To date in the war on terrorism, including the victims of the Sept. 11 attacks and all U.S. military personnel killed in action in Afghanistan and Iraq, America's losses total about 2 percent of the forces we lost in World War II and less than 7 percent of those killed in Vietnam. Yet we did not find it necessary to compromise our honor or abandon our commitment to the rule of law to defeat Nazi Germany or imperial Japan, or to resist communist aggression in Indochina. On the contrary, in Vietnam -- where we both proudly served twice -- America voluntarily extended the protections of the full Geneva Convention on prisoners of war to Viet Cong guerrillas who, like al-Qaeda, did not even arguably qualify for such protections.

The Geneva Conventions provide important protections to our own military forces when we send them into harm's way. Our troops deserve those protections, and we betray their interests when we gratuitously "interpret" key provisions of the conventions in a manner likely to undermine their effectiveness. Policymakers should also keep in mind that violations of Common Article 3 are "war crimes" for which everyone involved -- potentially up to and including the president of the United States -- may be tried in any of the other 193 countries that are parties to the conventions.

In a letter to President James Madison in March 1809, Jefferson observed: "It has a great effect on the opinion of our people and the world to have the moral right on our side." Our leaders must never lose sight of that wisdom.

Retired Gen. P.X. Kelley served as commandant of the Marine Corps from 1983 to 1987. Robert F. Turner is co-founder of the University of Virginia's Center for National Security Law and a former chair of the American Bar Association's Standing Committee on Law and National Security.

[AURaptor 1,126]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how Geneva Convention rules even apply here. They just don't. We're not fighting a 'nation' or any organization which can be treatied with. Also, I reject the notion that we 'torture' in any way , shape or form. What truely is torture is how the definiton of torture has been twisted to apply to what we do , but not what the terrorist do. They abide to NO standards, no treaty, Geneva or other wise.

[otterinbham 0]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how Geneva Convention rules even apply here. They just don't. We're not fighting a 'nation' or any organization which can be treatied with. Also, I reject the notion that we 'torture' in any way , shape or form. What truely is torture is how the definiton of torture has been twisted to apply to what we do , but not what the terrorist do. They abide to NO standards, no treaty, Geneva or other wise.

You're right. People like these guys, Colin Powell, dozens of retired generals, et al, are just a bunch of pantywaist lunatics. They have no idea what they're talking about. They are all in league with the enemy, conspiring to bring down this great country.

[AFTiger 282]

Does Bush agree?

Executive Order: Interpretation of the Geneva Conventions Common Article 3 as Applied to a Program of Detention and Interrogation Operated by the Central Intelligence Agency

White House News

President Bush Signs Executive Order

By the authority vested in me as President and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107 40), the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (Public Law 109 366), and section 301 of title 3, United States Code, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. General Determinations. (a) The United States is engaged in an armed conflict with al Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces. Members of al Qaeda were responsible for the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001, and for many other terrorist attacks, including against the United States, its personnel, and its allies throughout the world. These forces continue to fight the United States and its allies in Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere, and they continue to plan additional acts of terror throughout the world. On February 7, 2002, I determined for the United States that members of al Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces are unlawful enemy combatants who are not entitled to the protections that the Third Geneva Convention provides to prisoners of war. I hereby reaffirm that determination.

b. The Military Commissions Act defines certain prohibitions of Common Article 3 for United States law, and it reaffirms and reinforces the authority of the President to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions.

Sec. 2. Definitions. As used in this order:

(a) "Common Article 3" means Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.

b. "Geneva Conventions" means:

(i) the Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field, done at Geneva August 12, 1949 (6 UST 3114);

(ii) the Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea, done at Geneva August 12, 1949 (6 UST 3217);

(iii) the Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, done at Geneva August 12, 1949 (6 UST 3316); and

(iv) the Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, done at Geneva August 12, 1949 (6 UST 3516).

(c "Cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment" means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.

Sec. 3. Compliance of a Central Intelligence Agency Detention and Interrogation Program with Common Article 3. (a) Pursuant to the authority of the President under the Constitution and the laws of the United States, including the Military Commissions Act of 2006, this order interprets the meaning and application of the text of Common Article 3 with respect to certain detentions and interrogations, and shall be treated as authoritative for all purposes as a matter of United States law, including satisfaction of the international obligations of the United States. I hereby determine that Common Article 3 shall apply to a program of detention and interrogation operated by the Central Intelligence Agency as set forth in this section. The requirements set forth in this section shall be applied with respect to detainees in such program without adverse distinction as to their race, color, religion or faith, sex, birth, or wealth.

b. I hereby determine that a program of detention and interrogation approved by the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency fully complies with the obligations of the United States under Common Article 3, provided that:

(i) the conditions of confinement and interrogation practices of the program do not include:

(A) torture, as defined in section 2340 of title 18, United States Code;

B. any of the acts prohibited by section 2441(d) of title 18, United States Code, including murder, torture, cruel or inhuman treatment, mutilation or maiming, intentionally causing serious bodily injury, rape, sexual assault or abuse, taking of hostages, or performing of biological experiments;

(C other acts of violence serious enough to be considered comparable to murder, torture, mutilation, and cruel or inhuman treatment, as defined in section 2441(d) of title 18, United States Code;

(D) any other acts of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment prohibited by the Military Commissions Act (subsection 6(c of Public Law 109 366) and the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (section 1003 of Public Law 109 148 and section 1403 of Public Law 109 163);

(E) willful and outrageous acts of personal abuse done for the purpose of humiliating or degrading the individual in a manner so serious that any reasonable person, considering the circumstances, would deem the acts to be beyond the bounds of human decency, such as sexual or sexually indecent acts undertaken for the purpose of humiliation, forcing the individual to perform sexual acts or to pose sexually, threatening the individual with sexual mutilation, or using the individual as a human shield; or

(F) acts intended to denigrate the religion, religious practices, or religious objects of the individual;

(ii) the conditions of confinement and interrogation practices are to be used with an alien detainee who is determined by the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency:

(A) to be a member or part of or supporting al Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated organizations; and

B. likely to be in possession of information that:

(1) could assist in detecting, mitigating, or preventing terrorist attacks, such as attacks within the United States or against its Armed Forces or other personnel, citizens, or facilities, or against allies or other countries cooperating in the war on terror with the United States, or their armed forces or other personnel, citizens, or facilities; or

(2) could assist in locating the senior leadership of al Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces;

(iii) the interrogation practices are determined by the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, based upon professional advice, to be safe for use with each detainee with whom they are used; and

(iv) detainees in the program receive the basic necessities of life, including adequate food and water, shelter from the elements, necessary clothing, protection from extremes of heat and cold, and essential medical care.

(c The Director of the Central Intelligence Agency shall issue written policies to govern the program, including guidelines for Central Intelligence Agency personnel that implement paragraphs (i)©, (E), and (F) of subsection 3(b. of this order, and including requirements to ensure:

(i) safe and professional operation of the program;

(ii) the development of an approved plan of interrogation tailored for each detainee in the program to be interrogated, consistent with subsection 3(b.(iv) of this order;

(iii) appropriate training for interrogators and all personnel operating the program;

(iv) effective monitoring of the program, including with respect to medical matters, to ensure the safety of those in the program; and

(v) compliance with applicable law and this order.

Sec. 4. Assignment of Function. With respect to the program addressed in this order, the function of the President under section 6(c.(3) of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 is assigned to the Director of National Intelligence.

Sec. 5. General Provisions. (a) Subject to subsection (b. of this section, this order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity, against the United States, its departments, agencies, or other entities, its officers or employees, or any other person.

b. Nothing in this order shall be construed to prevent or limit reliance upon this order in a civil, criminal, or administrative proceeding, or otherwise, by the Central Intelligence Agency or by any individual acting on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency in connection with the program addressed in this order.

GEORGE W. BUSH

THE WHITE HOUSE,

July 20, 2007.

But here is who we do not torture

[AURaptor 1,126]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how Geneva Convention rules even apply here. They just don't. We're not fighting a 'nation' or any organization which can be treatied with. Also, I reject the notion that we 'torture' in any way , shape or form. What truely is torture is how the definiton of torture has been twisted to apply to what we do , but not what the terrorist do. They abide to NO standards, no treaty, Geneva or other wise.

You're right. People like these guys, Colin Powell, dozens of retired generals, et al, are just a bunch of pantywaist lunatics. They have no idea what they're talking about. They are all in league with the enemy, conspiring to bring down this great country.

And yet you avoid the relevent issues. Why is that ? Why do we hold ourselves to the standards of the Gevena Accord when we're not fighting a nation or group that abides by ANY standards ? Exactly who are we trying to appeal to ?

And oh yeah. Wasn't it Colin Powell who convinced Bush 41 to hault the first Gulf War, when we had Iraq in our grasp? We had over 2x's the amount of troops and armor over there then, and yet we called it quits. Why ? So Saddam could skirt the U.N.'s resolutions for 10 yrs, so corrupt Kofi and his band of thieves from Europe could fleece the world and Iraq of the humanitarian aid that was suppose to help the people , the young and elderly of Iraq, but instead was divided up to a very few ? And exactly how well did that work out for all of us ?

[otterinbham 0]

Does Bush agree?

Executive Order: Interpretation of the Geneva Conventions Common Article 3 as Applied to a Program of Detention and Interrogation Operated by the Central Intelligence Agency

White House News

President Bush Signs Executive Order

By the authority vested in me as President and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107 40), the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (Public Law 109 366), and section 301 of title 3, United States Code, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. General Determinations. (a) The United States is engaged in an armed conflict with al Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces. Members of al Qaeda were responsible for the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001, and for many other terrorist attacks, including against the United States, its personnel, and its allies throughout the world. These forces continue to fight the United States and its allies in Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere, and they continue to plan additional acts of terror throughout the world. On February 7, 2002, I determined for the United States that members of al Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces are unlawful enemy combatants who are not entitled to the protections that the Third Geneva Convention provides to prisoners of war. I hereby reaffirm that determination.

b. The Military Commissions Act defines certain prohibitions of Common Article 3 for United States law, and it reaffirms and reinforces the authority of the President to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions.

Sec. 2. Definitions. As used in this order:

(a) "Common Article 3" means Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.

b. "Geneva Conventions" means:

(i) the Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field, done at Geneva August 12, 1949 (6 UST 3114);

(ii) the Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea, done at Geneva August 12, 1949 (6 UST 3217);

(iii) the Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, done at Geneva August 12, 1949 (6 UST 3316); and

(iv) the Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, done at Geneva August 12, 1949 (6 UST 3516).

(c "Cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment" means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.

Sec. 3. Compliance of a Central Intelligence Agency Detention and Interrogation Program with Common Article 3. (a) Pursuant to the authority of the President under the Constitution and the laws of the United States, including the Military Commissions Act of 2006, this order interprets the meaning and application of the text of Common Article 3 with respect to certain detentions and interrogations, and shall be treated as authoritative for all purposes as a matter of United States law, including satisfaction of the international obligations of the United States. I hereby determine that Common Article 3 shall apply to a program of detention and interrogation operated by the Central Intelligence Agency as set forth in this section. The requirements set forth in this section shall be applied with respect to detainees in such program without adverse distinction as to their race, color, religion or faith, sex, birth, or wealth.

b. I hereby determine that a program of detention and interrogation approved by the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency fully complies with the obligations of the United States under Common Article 3, provided that:

(i) the conditions of confinement and interrogation practices of the program do not include:

(A) torture, as defined in section 2340 of title 18, United States Code;

B. any of the acts prohibited by section 2441(d) of title 18, United States Code, including murder, torture, cruel or inhuman treatment, mutilation or maiming, intentionally causing serious bodily injury, rape, sexual assault or abuse, taking of hostages, or performing of biological experiments;

(C other acts of violence serious enough to be considered comparable to murder, torture, mutilation, and cruel or inhuman treatment, as defined in section 2441(d) of title 18, United States Code;

(D) any other acts of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment prohibited by the Military Commissions Act (subsection 6(c of Public Law 109 366) and the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (section 1003 of Public Law 109 148 and section 1403 of Public Law 109 163);

(E) willful and outrageous acts of personal abuse done for the purpose of humiliating or degrading the individual in a manner so serious that any reasonable person, considering the circumstances, would deem the acts to be beyond the bounds of human decency, such as sexual or sexually indecent acts undertaken for the purpose of humiliation, forcing the individual to perform sexual acts or to pose sexually, threatening the individual with sexual mutilation, or using the individual as a human shield; or

(F) acts intended to denigrate the religion, religious practices, or religious objects of the individual;

(ii) the conditions of confinement and interrogation practices are to be used with an alien detainee who is determined by the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency:

(A) to be a member or part of or supporting al Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated organizations; and

B. likely to be in possession of information that:

(1) could assist in detecting, mitigating, or preventing terrorist attacks, such as attacks within the United States or against its Armed Forces or other personnel, citizens, or facilities, or against allies or other countries cooperating in the war on terror with the United States, or their armed forces or other personnel, citizens, or facilities; or

(2) could assist in locating the senior leadership of al Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces;

(iii) the interrogation practices are determined by the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, based upon professional advice, to be safe for use with each detainee with whom they are used; and

(iv) detainees in the program receive the basic necessities of life, including adequate food and water, shelter from the elements, necessary clothing, protection from extremes of heat and cold, and essential medical care.

(c The Director of the Central Intelligence Agency shall issue written policies to govern the program, including guidelines for Central Intelligence Agency personnel that implement paragraphs (i)©, (E), and (F) of subsection 3(b. of this order, and including requirements to ensure:

(i) safe and professional operation of the program;

(ii) the development of an approved plan of interrogation tailored for each detainee in the program to be interrogated, consistent with subsection 3(b.(iv) of this order;

(iii) appropriate training for interrogators and all personnel operating the program;

(iv) effective monitoring of the program, including with respect to medical matters, to ensure the safety of those in the program; and

(v) compliance with applicable law and this order.

Sec. 4. Assignment of Function. With respect to the program addressed in this order, the function of the President under section 6(c.(3) of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 is assigned to the Director of National Intelligence.

Sec. 5. General Provisions. (a) Subject to subsection (b. of this section, this order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity, against the United States, its departments, agencies, or other entities, its officers or employees, or any other person.

b. Nothing in this order shall be construed to prevent or limit reliance upon this order in a civil, criminal, or administrative proceeding, or otherwise, by the Central Intelligence Agency or by any individual acting on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency in connection with the program addressed in this order.

GEORGE W. BUSH

THE WHITE HOUSE,

July 20, 2007.

But here is who we do not torture

I'm fairly certain that a former Commandant of the Marine Corps and a former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs know the Geneva Convention far better than you do. And I'm fairly certain they know more about intelligence gathering than you. And they know about every aspect of fighting a war than you do. Further, these are by no means the only high-ranking members of the military establishment who have gone on record on this. The problem is, that you two are such Bushbots that you cannot recognize or comprehensd any other position, even when it is criticism coming from unquestioned experts in such affairs.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

And yet you avoid the relevent issues. Why is that ? Why do we hold ourselves to the standards of the Gevena Accord when we're not fighting a nation or group that abides by ANY standards ? Exactly who are we trying to appeal to ?

The better angels of our nature? Our own humanity? Moral people hold themselves to standards even if others don't.

And oh yeah. Wasn't it Colin Powell who convinced Bush 41 to halt the first Gulf War, when we had Iraq in our grasp? We had over 2x's the amount of troops and armor over there then, and yet we called it quits. Why ? So Saddam could skirt the U.N.'s resolutions for 10 yrs, so corrupt Kofi and his band of thieves from Europe could fleece the world and Iraq of the humanitarian aid that was suppose to help the people , the young and elderly of Iraq, but instead was divided up to a very few ? And exactly how well did that work out for all of us ?

Non sequitur. This has no bearing on whether we should dehumanize ourselves. If we lose our own souls and humanity, exactly what is it that we're trying to preserve and save by torturing people?

[TexasTiger 13,006]

And yet you avoid the relevent issues. Why is that ? Why do we hold ourselves to the standards of the Gevena Accord when we're not fighting a nation or group that abides by ANY standards ? Exactly who are we trying to appeal to ?

The better angels of our nature? Our own humanity? Moral people hold themselves to standards even if others don't.

And oh yeah. Wasn't it Colin Powell who convinced Bush 41 to halt the first Gulf War, when we had Iraq in our grasp? We had over 2x's the amount of troops and armor over there then, and yet we called it quits. Why ? So Saddam could skirt the U.N.'s resolutions for 10 yrs, so corrupt Kofi and his band of thieves from Europe could fleece the world and Iraq of the humanitarian aid that was suppose to help the people , the young and elderly of Iraq, but instead was divided up to a very few ? And exactly how well did that work out for all of us ?

Non sequitur. This has no bearing on whether we should dehumanize ourselves. If we lose our own souls and humanity, exactly what is it that we're trying to preserve and save by torturing people?

Exactly. Our greatest strength and our greatest capacity to foster democracy was when we were viewed as having markedly higher standards than the forces we oppose. We haven't yet succumbed to the level of our worst adversaries, but have lost considerable credibility with a world that looks for moral leadership.

[AURaptor 1,126]

There's nothing dehumanizing in dealing out just , harsh punishment to those who deserve it. We are a 1000 years more advanced and civilized than our adversaires, and they view our inaction to do the right thing not as merciful, but as a sign that we don't believe in what we're doing. How pathetic. They laugh at us for making a fuss over a few prisoners having to sleep on a cold cement floor, when they're carving out organs of living prisoners , truely torturing them before they slice off their heads. I have no words for the frustration and disrepect I have for those pu$$ies who can't take the fight to the enemy w/ out breaking out into singing a verse of Kum ba ya.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

There's nothing dehumanizing in dealing out just , harsh punishment to those who deserve it. We are a 1000 years more advanced and civilized than our adversaires, and they view our inaction to do the right thing not as merciful, but as a sign that we don't believe in what we're doing.

I'm not interested in what barbarians think of our refusal to join them in their barbarism just as I don't concern myself with why my dog may wonder why I don't roll around in my own crap like he does. Why on earth would use such a shoddy standard to take measure of myself as a human being?

How pathetic. They laugh at us for making a fuss over a few prisoners having to sleep on a cold cement floor, when they're carving out organs of living prisoners , truely torturing them before they slice off their heads. I have no words for the frustration and disrepect I have for those pu$$ies who can't take the fight to the enemy w/ out breaking out into singing a verse of Kum ba ya.

Of course, no one except you is proposing singing songs or playing patty cake. Exercise that brain of yours a smidgen and try to conceive of possibilities that lie somewhere on the reasonable and non-barbaric side of the Torture/Doing Nothing continuum.

[TexasTiger 13,006]

There's nothing dehumanizing in dealing out just , harsh punishment to those who deserve it. We are a 1000 years more advanced and civilized than our adversaires, and they view our inaction to do the right thing not as merciful, but as a sign that we don't believe in what we're doing. How pathetic. They laugh at us for making a fuss over a few prisoners having to sleep on a cold cement floor, when they're carving out organs of living prisoners , truely torturing them before they slice off their heads. I have no words for the frustration and disrepect I have for those pu$$ies who can't take the fight to the enemy w/ out breaking out into singing a verse of Kum ba ya.

So says the tough-guy chicken hawk from the comfort and safety of his keyboard. You are for torturing people who haven't even been tried and proven guilty. You have no respect for the values our country was founded on. So you think this guy-- Retired Gen. P.X. Kelley, who served as commandant of the Marine Corps from 1983 to 1987-- is a Kum Ba Ya singing pu@#y? I have no words for the frustration and disrespect I have for people like you who are besmirching the honor of my country.

[AURaptor 1,126]

TexasTiger wrote:

You are for torturing people who haven't even been tried and proven guilty. You have no respect for the values our country was founded on. So you think this guy-- Retired Gen. P.X. Kelley, who served as commandant of the Marine Corps from 1983 to 1987-- is a Kum Ba Ya singing pu@#y? I have no words for the frustration and disrespect I have for people like you who are besmirching the honor of my country.

I'm not for torutre, so you're wrong, right out of the gate. But the pu$$ies who call what we do 'torture' are the very ones who'd rather we give up our soverignty to the U.N. I'd bet for every Gen. Kelly, there are 100 marines who see things differently.

[AFTiger 282]

I'm fairly certain that a former Commandant of the Marine Corps and a former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs know the Geneva Convention far better than you do. And I'm fairly certain they know more about intelligence gathering than you. And they know about every aspect of fighting a war than you do. Further, these are by no means the only high-ranking members of the military establishment who have gone on record on this. The problem is, that you two are such Bushbots that you cannot recognize or comprehensd any other position, even when it is criticism coming from unquestioned experts in such affairs.

What?

[AURaptor 1,126]

TexasTiger , do you think we torture for the same reasons that al Qaeda does ?? I submit that we don't even torture, but what you CALL torture, is done so for a reason. It's to gather information. Information which will keep our soldiers from being hurt/killed as well as to protect innocent civillians. This is where your moral equivolency nonsense falls apart. The terrorist aren't trying to get information ouf of those they caputre. They know where we are and how many of us are in country. Hell, everything we do is practically given in updates on the nightly news! The terrorist merely want to inflict pain and terror, and to send a message. They know we care about our troops as people, as we care about civillians. So that's why they make those they catch suffer horribly before they die. So we'll know. And then they'll leave the mutilated bodies for us to find. So we'll know. That is why they torture, which is ACTUAL torture, and not the fraternal hazing stuff that some panty waist charge us with.

Can your mind even comprehend the differences between us and them ?

So how dare you compare what we do to the actions of the terrorist. You and your Dick Durbin types are the most dispicable of all who call themselves Americans.

[quietfan 233]

And yet you avoid the relevent issues. Why is that ? Why do we hold ourselves to the standards of the Gevena Accord when we're not fighting a nation or group that abides by ANY standards ? Exactly who are we trying to appeal to ?

The better angels of our nature? Our own humanity? Moral people hold themselves to standards even if others don't.

....

If we lose our own souls and humanity, exactly what is it that we're trying to preserve and save by torturing people?

Our greatest strength and our greatest capacity to foster democracy was when we were viewed as having markedly higher standards than the forces we oppose. We haven't yet succumbed to the level of our worst adversaries, but have lost considerable credibility with a world that looks for moral leadership.

I'm not interested in what barbarians think of our refusal to join them in their barbarism just as I don't concern myself with why my dog may wonder why I don't roll around in my own crap like he does. Why on earth would use such a shoddy standard to take measure of myself as a human being?

I'm not really interested in jumping into a debate that is endless and without hope of resolution, but just wanted to thank you guys for expressing my feelings so eloquently and succinctly.

[AURaptor 1,126]

quiet, I regret that you fail to grasp the real debate here. From your post, is appears that you fall in line w/ those who mistakenly presume that , as al Qaeda tortures, we torture in like fashion. Nothing could be further from the truth. These baseless claims, which you state are so eloquently expressed, spring from nothing more than a politically motivated mind set which wants to see Bush, the GOP and basically the U.S.A. fail.

I will never be among that crowd.

[tiger88 934]

Whatever happened to the good old days when the government tortured our enemies, kept it quiet, and we didn't have to concern ourselves with it?

This informatuion age has its good and bad points.

[AFTiger 282]

Are liberals in the CIA conducting a war against Bush and are they endagering us? The distinguished columnist Rowan Scarborough thinks so.

Not a pretty story

For years, Rowan Scarborough has distinguished himself through his coverage of military affairs, first for the Washington Times and now for the Examiner. This week, the Examiner is publishing excerpts from Scarborough's new book Sabotage, which tells the story of the CIA's war against President Bush.

In the first installment, Scarborough describes the CIA's war with the Defense Department, which began shortly after 9/11 when DoD (through veteran analyst Michael Maloof) asked the CIA to provide intelligence reports about al Qaeda's links to other terrorist organizations and sponsors of terrorism. According to Scarborough, the CIA flatly refused to provide this material.

Only after Paul Wolfowitz intervened did the CIA disgorge its reports. When DoD used them to produce a 150-slide briefing on contacts among al Qaeda, Iraq and Iran, the CIA (in Scarborough's telling) went ballistic. Soon, Democratic lawmakers like Carl Levin began charging that Douglas Feith (Defense Secretary Rumsfeld's top civilian advisor) had set up an illegal organization. According to Scarborough, "Levin, using the friendly Washington Post and New York Times, launched a campaign against a 'rogue' intelligence cell inside the Defense Department."

As unhappy as the CIA was with Feith's foray into what it considered CIA turf, its own analysis of the connections between al Qaeda and Iraq was similar. As CIA Director Tenet told the Senate Intelligence Committee in 2002,

Iraq’s increasing support to extremist Palestinians, coupled with growing indications of a relationship with al Qaeda, suggest that Baghdad’s links to terrorists will increase, even absent U.S. military action. ... We have solid reporting of senior-levelcontacts between Iraq and al Qaeda going back a decade. ... We have credible reporting that al Qaeda leaders sought contacts in Iraq who could help them acquire WMD capabilities.

Yet the intelligence community remained on the attack against DoD. According to Scarborough, Michael Haydon (then head of the NSA and now CIA Director) accused Maloof (the DoD analyst who had initially asked the CIA for its report) of leaking classified material to the press. Haydon wanted Maloof's security clearance pulled — obviously a death blow to a defense analyst. Maloof passed a polygraph, but lost his security clearance anyway.

Thus, did the intelligence community signal early on that anyone who encroached on its turf or otherwise offended its sensibilites would pay a heavy price. Presumably, the Examiner's remaining excerpts from Scarborough's book will further document that price.