Mary Anne Marsh on Hannity and Colmes

[Tiger Al 0]

And I'll bet that 80% or more of the people who went into the Guard probably had that as one of their motives as well. I'm sorry, but I reject the notion that serving the country in a different capacity because one didn't want to go to Vietnam was a "betrayal". Do you?

Main Entry: be·tray

Pronunciation: bi-'trA

Function: verb

Etymology: Middle English, from be- + trayen to betray, from Old French traïr, from Latin tradere -- more at TRAITOR

transitive senses

1 : to lead astray; especially : SEDUCE

2 : to deliver to an enemy by treachery

3 : to fail or desert especially in time of need

4 a : to reveal unintentionally b : SHOW, INDICATE c : to disclose in violation of confidence

intransitive senses : to prove false

Hmm, he advanced to the front of a very long line when his test scores were completely meritless for such a move, missed time from a job that hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent training him for, lost his flight status for reasons he seemingly can't remember and got out early once the danger of the draft was over. What do you call that?

[TitanTiger 20,504]

And I'll bet that 80% or more of the people who went into the Guard probably had that as one of their motives as well.  I'm sorry, but I reject the notion that serving the country in a different capacity because one didn't want to go to Vietnam was a "betrayal".  Do you?

Main Entry: be·tray

Pronunciation: bi-'trA

Function: verb

Etymology: Middle English, from be- + trayen to betray, from Old French traïr, from Latin tradere -- more at TRAITOR

transitive senses

1 : to lead astray; especially : SEDUCE

2 : to deliver to an enemy by treachery

3 : to fail or desert especially in time of need

4 a : to reveal unintentionally b : SHOW, INDICATE c : to disclose in violation of confidence

intransitive senses : to prove false

Hmm, he advanced to the front of a very long line when his test scores were completely meritless for such a move, missed time from a job that hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent training him for, lost his flight status for reasons he seemingly can't remember and got out early once the danger of the draft was over. What do you call that?

A rather cynical and selective view of a person. Too bad you don't apply the same scathing skepticism with the circumstances of Kerry's service, the inconsistencies of his recollections, the scenarios which got him his Purple Hearts, and so on.

Truth be known, all this stuff is rather stupid, but if one side is going to pound the President on goofy crap like this, they deserve to get the same treatment for their candidate with both barrels.

[Tiger Al 0]

One monumental difference: Naval records support everything Kerry says. Why are you trying to smear the US Navy and call into question the validity of every sailor who ever received a medal?

Truth be known, all this stuff is rather stupid, but if one side is going to pound the President on goofy crap like this, they deserve to get the same treatment for their candidate with both barrels.

You're probably right, but, to paraphrase the words of Bob Dole, "Why do you lie about his record?"

[TitanTiger 20,504]

One monumental difference: Naval records support everything Kerry says. Why are you trying to smear the US Navy and call into question the validity of every sailor who ever received a medal?

Truth be known, all this stuff is rather stupid, but if one side is going to pound the President on goofy crap like this, they deserve to get the same treatment for their candidate with both barrels.

You're probably right, but, to paraphrase the words of Bob Dole, "Why do you lie about his record?"

I think the jury is still out on that frankly. There are Naval records that support some of his story, some of it is he said/he said from what I can gather, he still hasn't released all his medical records, etc. I may not be able to put my finger exactly on what the problem is, but all I know is something smells fishy about Kerry's tour.

So, I didn't smear anything. I just asked why you don't apply the same level of skepticism toward all the stuff about Kerry's service that you do GWBs. If anything, I'm smearing you for blatant, willful bias.

[Tigermike 3,044]

One monumental difference: Naval records support everything Kerry says. Why are you trying to smear the US Navy and call into question the validity of every sailor who ever received a medal?

Truth be known, all this stuff is rather stupid, but if one side is going to pound the President on goofy crap like this, they deserve to get the same treatment for their candidate with both barrels.

You're probably right, but, to paraphrase the words of Bob Dole, "Why do you lie about his record?"

One monumental difference: Kerry has not released all of his records. He could have avoided all of this if he had done so very early. Which makes one wonder why. Is he hiding something in the records or is this rancorous dialogue covering up his abysmal Senate record?

[Tiger Al 0]

Which medical records hasn't he released?

Documents recently obtained from the Naval Archives show that, for one thing, the day he rescued Rassman and earned the Bronze Star several AAR's told of them receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire. SBVT wunderkind Larry Thurlow alledged that they received NO fire whatsoever and that Kerry and his crew made it up.

If anything, I'm smearing you for blatant, willful bias.

As opposed to David's "fair and balanced" approach?

[Tigermike 3,044]

Which medical records hasn't he released?

Documents recently obtained from the Naval Archives show that, for one thing, the day he rescued Rassman and earned the Bronze Star several AAR's told of them receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire. SBVT wunderkind Larry Thurlow alledged that they received NO fire whatsoever and that Kerry and his crew made it up.

If anything, I'm smearing you for blatant, willful bias.

As opposed to David's "fair and balanced" approach?

You know very well that Kerry has not released his entire medical record or the actual applications for the medals. Who initially made application for the medals? Was it Kerry or his boat commander? Oh I forgot, Kerry was the boat commander wasn't he?

[Weagle98 119]

Which medical records hasn't he released?

Documents recently obtained from the Naval Archives show that, for one thing, the day he rescued Rassman and earned the Bronze Star several AAR's told of them receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire. SBVT wunderkind Larry Thurlow alledged that they received NO fire whatsoever and that Kerry and his crew made it up.

If anything, I'm smearing you for blatant, willful bias.

As opposed to David's "fair and balanced" approach?

Yet there was no damage (bullet holes or mine damage) to ANY vehicle other than the 3 boat (NOT KERRY'S).

[Tiger Al 0]

Which medical records hasn't he released?

Documents recently obtained from the Naval Archives show that, for one thing, the day he rescued Rassman and earned the Bronze Star several AAR's told of them receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire. SBVT wunderkind Larry Thurlow alledged that they received NO fire whatsoever and that Kerry and his crew made it up.

If anything, I'm smearing you for blatant, willful bias.

As opposed to David's "fair and balanced" approach?

You know very well that Kerry has not released his entire medical record or the actual applications for the medals. Who initially made application for the medals? Was it Kerry or his boat commander? Oh I forgot, Kerry was the boat commander wasn't he?

Here's a nice little summary of Kerry's medals and the men you've aligned yourself with.

Having been in the military yourself you know full well that an individual doesn't recommend himself for a medal and you'd also know that the application wouldn't be in the service members file. The citation itself would be, but not the application. You know this or at least you should if you received any awards.

[Tigermike 3,044]

Which medical records hasn't he released?

Documents recently obtained from the Naval Archives show that, for one thing, the day he rescued Rassman and earned the Bronze Star several AAR's told of them receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire. SBVT wunderkind Larry Thurlow alledged that they received NO fire whatsoever and that Kerry and his crew made it up.

If anything, I'm smearing you for blatant, willful bias.

As opposed to David's "fair and balanced" approach?

You know very well that Kerry has not released his entire medical record or the actual applications for the medals. Who initially made application for the medals? Was it Kerry or his boat commander? Oh I forgot, Kerry was the boat commander wasn't he?

Here's a nice little summary of Kerry's medals and the men you've aligned yourself with.

Having been in the military yourself you know full well that an individual doesn't recommend himself for a medal and you'd also know that the application wouldn't be in the service members file. The citation itself would be, but not the application. You know this or at least you should if you received any awards.

Let's rephrase then Al, John Kerry could have avoided all this BS if he had release all papers surrounding his military service. HE is the one who could have release those applications couldn't he? But he hasn't has he?

Having been in the military yourself you know full well that an individual doesn't recommend himself for a medal,,,

That's my question Al who made the application? Are you saying categorically that John Kerry did not make the initial application? If that is the position of the Kerry campaign, why the hell don't they release the initial application? As I have said before, release of that one (or three, since there are three medals) could diffuse all the BS surrounding his medals. Is that hard to understand?

As far as medals Al, I have never claimed to be a hero. I have two and one of them was awarded to every service person.

[Tiger Al 0]

Let's rephrase then Al, John Kerry could have avoided all this BS if he had release all papers surrounding his military service. HE is the one who could have release those applications couldn't he? But he hasn't has he?

How can he release something he doesn't own?

Are you saying categorically that John Kerry did not make the initial application?

I'm saying categorically that the military doesn't work that way. Even if it did and Kerry filled out the app on his own and took it straight to the reviewers, bypassing his entire chain of command, THE INFORMATION IS STILL VETTED and if somebody thought he was qualified for one, two or three Purple Hearts then they made that decision, not him. But, again, that's not how it works.

[Tigermike 3,044]

Let's rephrase then Al, John Kerry could have avoided all this BS if he had release all papers surrounding his military service. HE is the one who could have release those applications couldn't he? But he hasn't has he?

How can he release something he doesn't own?

You know as well as anyone that those papers can not be released without Kerry's approval. No matter how much you dance around, it still boils down to Kerry must approve the release of those papers. And you know full well he doesn't have to "own" the records.

[TitanTiger 20,504]

This subject bores me now.

[Tiger Al 0]

Let's rephrase then Al, John Kerry could have avoided all this BS if he had release all papers surrounding his military service. HE is the one who could have release those applications couldn't he? But he hasn't has he?

How can he release something he doesn't own?

You know as well as anyone that those papers can not be released without Kerry's approval. No matter how much you dance around, it still boils down to Kerry must approve the release of those papers. And you know full well he doesn't have to "own" the records.

Again, the applications are not placed in a servicemembers file so he can't release what he doesn't have. The citation and the orders for the award would and are in there but the application would not. I'm not sure if they're kept at the unit level. I think you're fixated on a red herring with the medal application. As for his medical records, which ones hasn't he released?

[MDM4AU 336]

This discussion is ridiculous!

Kerry has one form he can sign that will release any and all records. I don't recall the name of that form at this time. But if I am not mistaken, so far he has not signed that form.

[DKW 86 7,433]

This discussion is ridiculous!

Kerry has one form he can sign that will release any and all records. I don't recall the name of that form at this time. But if I am not mistaken, so far he has not signed that form.

Form 180. He signs it and the other 94 pages in his service jacket are relesed. So far we have seemn only 6 from the Jacket.

The medical records were only seen by reporters one day, for a few moments, and no copies were allowed to be made.

[Tiger Al 0]

This discussion is ridiculous! 

Kerry has one form he can sign that will release any and all records.  I don't recall the name of that form at this time.  But if I am not mistaken, so far he has not signed that form.

Most documents can be obtained via FOIA. This medal application nonsense can be obtained by you simply by filling out the paperwork and sending it in. That's how the Washington Post got Thurlow's Bronze Star citation.

Medical records are a different story, but, still again, which medical records has he witheld?

[Tigermike 3,044]

Here is an opinion by a Navy doctor.

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040825-085753-2062r.htm

[DKW 86 7,433]

Kerry, What is he hiding?

Plot thickens after checking records

August 27, 2004

BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB

In the midst of the controversy between the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and Kerry campaign representatives about Kerry's service in Vietnam, new questions have arisen.

The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval records prove the truth of Kerry's assertions about his service.

But the official records on Kerry's Web site only add to the confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document summarizing Kerry's military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes a "Silver Star with combat V."

But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."

Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a "combat V" for the Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the other services has ever granted a Silver Star "combat V," either.

Fake claims not uncommon

B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.

Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for falsification of his records.

Kerry's Web site also lists two different citations for the Silver Star. One was issued by the commander in chief of the Pacific Command (CINCPAC), Adm. John Hyland. The other, issued by Secretary of the Navy John Lehman during the Reagan administration, contained some revisions and additional language. "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself... ."

One award, three citations

But a third citation exists that appears to be the earliest. And it is not on the Kerry campaign Web site. It was issued by Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam. This citation lacks the language in the Hyland citation or that added by the Lehman version, but includes another 170 words in a detailed description of Kerry's attack on a Viet Cong ambush, his killing of an enemy soldier carrying a loaded rocket launcher, as well as military equipment captured and a body count of dead enemy.

Maj. Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Vietnam veteran, calls the issuance of three citations for the same medal "bizarre." Milavic hosts Milinet, an Internet forum popular with the military community that is intended "to provide a forum in military/political affairs."

Normally in the case of a lost citation, Milavec points out, the awardee simply asked for a copy to be sent to him from his service personnel records office where it remains on file. "I have never heard of multi-citations from three different people for the same medal award," he said. Nor has Burkett: "It is even stranger to have three different descriptions of the awardee's conduct in the citations for the same award."

So far, there are also two varying citations for Kerry's Bronze Star, one by Zumwalt and the other by Lehman as secretary of the Navy, both posted on johnkerry.com.

Kerry's Web site also carries a DD215 form revising his DD214, issued March 12, 2001, which adds four bronze campaign stars to his Vietnam service medal. The campaign stars are issued for participation in any of the 17 Department of Defense named campaigns that extended from 1962 to the cease-fire in 1973.

However, according to the Navy spokesman, Kerry should only have two campaign stars: one for "Counteroffensive, Phase VI," and one for "Tet69, Counteroffensive."

94 pages of records unreleased?

Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."

What could that more than 100 pages contain? Questions have been raised about President Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but Bush received his honorable discharge on schedule. Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years? This raises serious questions about Kerry's performance while in the reserves that are far more potentially damaging than those raised against Bush.

Experts point out that even the official military records get screwed up. Milavic is trying to get mistakes in his own DD214 file corrected. In his opinion, "these entries are not prima facie evidence of lying or unethical behavior on the part of Kerry or anyone else with screwed-up DD214s."

Burkett, who has spent years working with the FBI, Department of Justice and all of the military services uncovering fraudulent files in the official records, is less charitable: "The multiple citations and variations in the official record are reason for suspicion in itself, even disregarding the current swift boat veterans' controversy."

Thomas Lipscomb is chairman of the Center for the Digital Future in New York.

[Tiger Al 0]

Kerry, What is he hiding?

Plot thickens after checking records

August 27, 2004

BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB

In the midst of the controversy between the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and Kerry campaign representatives about Kerry's service in Vietnam, new questions have arisen.

The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval records prove the truth of Kerry's assertions about his service.

But the official records on Kerry's Web site only add to the confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document summarizing Kerry's military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes a "Silver Star with combat V."

But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."

Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a "combat V" for the Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the other services has ever granted a Silver Star "combat V," either.

Fake claims not uncommon

B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.

Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for falsification of his records.

Kerry's Web site also lists two different citations for the Silver Star. One was issued by the commander in chief of the Pacific Command (CINCPAC), Adm. John Hyland. The other, issued by Secretary of the Navy John Lehman during the Reagan administration, contained some revisions and additional language. "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself... ."

One award, three citations

But a third citation exists that appears to be the earliest. And it is not on the Kerry campaign Web site. It was issued by Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam. This citation lacks the language in the Hyland citation or that added by the Lehman version, but includes another 170 words in a detailed description of Kerry's attack on a Viet Cong ambush, his killing of an enemy soldier carrying a loaded rocket launcher, as well as military equipment captured and a body count of dead enemy.

Maj. Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Vietnam veteran, calls the issuance of three citations for the same medal "bizarre." Milavic hosts Milinet, an Internet forum popular with the military community that is intended "to provide a forum in military/political affairs."

Normally in the case of a lost citation, Milavec points out, the awardee simply asked for a copy to be sent to him from his service personnel records office where it remains on file. "I have never heard of multi-citations from three different people for the same medal award," he said. Nor has Burkett: "It is even stranger to have three different descriptions of the awardee's conduct in the citations for the same award."

So far, there are also two varying citations for Kerry's Bronze Star, one by Zumwalt and the other by Lehman as secretary of the Navy, both posted on johnkerry.com.

Kerry's Web site also carries a DD215 form revising his DD214, issued March 12, 2001, which adds four bronze campaign stars to his Vietnam service medal. The campaign stars are issued for participation in any of the 17 Department of Defense named campaigns that extended from 1962 to the cease-fire in 1973.

However, according to the Navy spokesman, Kerry should only have two campaign stars: one for "Counteroffensive, Phase VI," and one for "Tet69, Counteroffensive."

94 pages of records unreleased?

Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."

What could that more than 100 pages contain? Questions have been raised about President Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but Bush received his honorable discharge on schedule. Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years? This raises serious questions about Kerry's performance while in the reserves that are far more potentially damaging than those raised against Bush.

Experts point out that even the official military records get screwed up. Milavic is trying to get mistakes in his own DD214 file corrected. In his opinion, "these entries are not prima facie evidence of lying or unethical behavior on the part of Kerry or anyone else with screwed-up DD214s."

Burkett, who has spent years working with the FBI, Department of Justice and all of the military services uncovering fraudulent files in the official records, is less charitable: "The multiple citations and variations in the official record are reason for suspicion in itself, even disregarding the current swift boat veterans' controversy."

Thomas Lipscomb is chairman of the Center for the Digital Future in New York.

That's nice, David. Maybe you should've highlighted this part, too...

Experts point out that even the official military records get screwed up. Milavic is trying to get mistakes in his own DD214 file corrected. In his opinion, "these entries are not prima facie evidence of lying or unethical behavior on the part of Kerry or anyone else with screwed-up DD214s."

My 214 is missing a few awards that I'm in the process of straightening out. Am I hiding something?

Wait, don't answer that. Instead, let's get this thread back on the mainstreet and talk about Mary Anne Marsh on 'Hannity and colmes'.

[DKW 86 7,433]

Not a hijacker here guy.

You said or implied repeatedly that Kerry has released all his records when he has not. We know that 100+ pages are still not released. Kerry just has to sign one form and all of this stuff goes away.

Unless of course the real reason he hasnt released them is still left in those files.

Things that make you go hhhhmmmmmm...

[Tiger Al 0]

Instead, let's get this thread back on the mainstreet and talk about Mary Anne Marsh on 'Hannity and colmes'.

Let's do this first.

[DKW 86 7,433]

Instead, let's get this thread back on the mainstreet and talk about Mary Anne Marsh on 'Hannity and colmes'.

Let's do this first.

Till the transcripts arrive, there is nothing to "Do."

[AUloggerhead 2,246]

Instead, let's get this thread back on the mainstreet and talk about Mary Anne Marsh on 'Hannity and colmes'.

Let's do this first.

All right, let's talk about it. TigerAl, tell us what do you think of Ms Marsh's statements:

(1) Do you agree or disagree with her assertion that George W. Bush betrayed his country by not serving in Viet Nam during his time in the TANG?

(2) Do you believe she's a complete idiot for not immediatly retracting those words said in haste or do you believe she's a total moron for so publicly displaying her overt hatred towards Bush?

(3) Do you believe this helps or hinders the Democratic cause with respect to the undecided voters still out there?

Just wondering.

[Tiger Al 0]

(1) Do you agree or disagree with her assertion that George W. Bush betrayed his country by not serving in Viet Nam during his time in the TANG?

Hmm, he advanced to the front of a very long line when his test scores were completely meritless for such a move, missed time from a job that hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent training him for, lost his flight status for reasons he seemingly can't remember and got out early once the danger of the draft was over. What do you call that?

(2) Do you believe she's a complete idiot for not immediatly retracting those words said in haste or do you believe she's a total moron for so publicly displaying her overt hatred towards Bush?

If she believes those words then why should she retract them? If her hatred is overt, wouldn't it necessarily be displayed publicly? Seriously, I don't know that she hates him, but, if she does then what's wrong with that? O'Neill, Thurlow and the rest are very overt in their hatred toward Kerry but that doesn't seem to bother anyone. The list of those who hate anyone named Clinton or is a senator from Massachusetts is very long but those on the list don't lose a minutes sleep worried about their hatred so why should she, if that's the case?

(3) Do you believe this helps or hinders the Democratic cause with respect to the undecided voters still out there?

I don't know. David seems to be the only one who can tune in to 'Hannity and colmes' on the radio and I'm pretty sure his mind is already made up.