Mary Anne Marsh on Hannity and Colmes

[TexasTiger 12,969]

Look forward to all the transcripts you like, I saw it....I am not able to quote it, but it happened....

I doubt it happened as David said it did. I'm willing to believe it happened as we have found it indicated elsewhere.

[stoic-one 1,548]

Look forward to all the transcripts you like, I saw it....I am not able to quote it, but it happened....

I doubt it happened as David said it did. I'm willing to believe it happened as we have found it indicated elsewhere.

Actually, he wasn't that far off.... In her defense, I don't think she realized how it came off...

[TexasTiger 12,969]

Look forward to all the transcripts you like, I saw it....I am not able to quote it, but it happened....

I doubt it happened as David said it did. I'm willing to believe it happened as we have found it indicated elsewhere.

Actually, he wasn't that far off.... In her defense, I don't think she realized how it came off...

Not in Bushworld where the Clear Skies Initiative means pollute to your heart's content.

[stoic-one 1,548]

ooohhhhh....ahhhhhh

[AUloggerhead 2,246]

FYI -- In addition to doing Hannity & Colmes on Fox TV, Sean Hannity also has his own afternoon radio talk show, 3-6 pm Eastern, M-F. Link He's affiliated with the ABC network on the radio.

[TexasTiger 12,969]

FYI -- In addition to doing Hannity & Colmes on Fox TV, Sean Hannity also has his own afternoon radio talk show, 3-6 pm Eastern, M-F.  Link  He's affiliated with the ABC network on the radio.

I know Hannity has a radio show. I was not aware that Hannity & Colmes was broadcasts via radio.

[Tiger Al 0]

FYI -- In addition to doing Hannity & Colmes on Fox TV, Sean Hannity also has his own afternoon radio talk show, 3-6 pm Eastern, M-F. Link He's affiliated with the ABC network on the radio.

Already checked it out...no mention of it there, either.

[Tiger Al 0]

Don't forget about this, David.

[Tigermike 3,044]

Al, you sound like the kids on a trip, "Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?"       

Sorry...I didn't mean to offend you. It's just that this is a very 'over-the-top' allegation that David made and with his history of embellishing when it comes to things he sees on TV I'd just like to know exactly what she said. As a National Guardsman, maybe it'll be what it takes for me to hate her as much as ranger12 and David seem to. If it can't be substantiated then we'll have some different issues to discuss.

Don't get your panties in a wad. And besides, how did you read in that I was offended?

[TexasTiger 12,969]

I look forward to the transcript, too, because this is the closest I can find, and even though its over the top, it is a far cry from what David seemed to hear.

Why is it a far cry? Was she saying the Bush betrayed his country by some other means? She was clearly referring to him going the National Guard route instead of signing up for the regular army and going to 'Nam. Problem is, Bush wasn't the only person who missed going to 'Nam by being in the Guard. If Bush betrayed the country by doing this, then by implication so did every one else who took that route. Is there really some other way to read this that I'm not seeing?

And has it occured to you that perhaps either Hannity had the clip on his radio show the next day or even Rush? Is it really that big of a technological leap?

I'm not defending her comments because I don't agree with them, but she could have meant that by pulling strings to get a coveted pilot slot and then not even showing up for your flight physical and facing no real consequences for not training at what the taxpayers spent a bunch of bucks for you to become, and then apparently not even showing up regularly after pulling additional strings to work on a partisan campaign, was a betrayal in a sense that would not apply to someone who got into the guard without pulling strings and diligently showed up for what they were trained for. She could have the view that Bush cynically used the Guard in a way most members did not. If she had wanted to make a blanket statement about the Guard, as David stated she did, then it seems she would have done so.

She may just share Colin Powell's anger:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed managed to wrangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." Colin Powell

Isn't Powell saying that someone in George Bush's shoes failed to show "equal allegiance to the country" as compared to those who went to Viet Nam because they lacked the influence. That's getting close to a form of betrayal, is it not?

Titan:

Your take on my response?

[DKW 86 7,433]

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

National Review Online

August 25, 2004, 9:39 a.m.

Bush the Betrayer, the German jihadist, Milosz’s legacy, &c.

The oddest thing happened on Hannity & Colmes Monday night. A Democratic strategist, Mary Anne Marsh, was giving it to President Bush, as you might have expected. But here's what you might not have expected: She said, "Bush betrayed this country about why we went to war in Iraq" — so far, so good (or rather, so far, so normal) — "just like he betrayed them when he didn't fight in Vietnam." Say what? Bush betrayed his country because he served in the Guard, not in Vietnam itself? Are you kidding?

No, she was not kidding — she repeated her charge, that Bush had "betrayed his country." Okay — so must have every eligible man who did not serve in Vietnam. All traitors. Including Bill Clinton, of course, and many others Mary Anne Marsh must admire. That is the criterion: If you were eligible and did not serve in Vietnam, you "betrayed your country."

This is what it has come to. Ladies and gentlemen, sometimes I pause and ask myself whether I'm too hard on the Democratic party. Am I just too partisan? I don't think so. I think there is a deep sickness within that party, and we saw a shocking manifestation on Hannity & Colmes.

And, incidentally, wasn't it extreme right-wing nationalists who, once upon a time, cried "Treason!" whenever someone didn't go to war? And now it's nice Democratic consultants. Used to be, liberal Democrats defended men who didn't go to Vietnam — even praised them, held them out as the "real heroes"! That's certainly the way it was when I was growing up, in Ann Arbor.

History is weird. America is weird. This presidential campaign is beyond-weird.

Al, Sorry I only listed these. There were so many I had to cull them out a bit. Al, they have this thing called Google. It is a great tool. It looks up stuff for you.

I have sent to Hannity and Colmes for a transcript for you. I am sure if you saw it yourself, you would not admit it anyway.

Funny, I was discharged from the Reserves, I dont feel like a "betrayer." But I guess me and Al have something in common now. We "betrayed" out country..

Must be though. Afterall, a Democratic Party Leader just said so on National TV. We all know that they only have the interest of the country at heart.....

[TexasTiger 12,969]

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

National Review Online

August 25, 2004, 9:39 a.m.

Bush the Betrayer, the German jihadist, Milosz’s legacy, &c.

The oddest thing happened on Hannity & Colmes Monday night. A Democratic strategist, Mary Anne Marsh, was giving it to President Bush, as you might have expected. But here's what you might not have expected: She said, "Bush betrayed this country about why we went to war in Iraq" — so far, so good (or rather, so far, so normal) — "just like he betrayed them when he didn't fight in Vietnam." Say what? Bush betrayed his country because he served in the Guard, not in Vietnam itself? Are you kidding?

No, she was not kidding — she repeated her charge, that Bush had "betrayed his country." Okay — so must have every eligible man who did not serve in Vietnam. All traitors. Including Bill Clinton, of course, and many others Mary Anne Marsh must admire. That is the criterion: If you were eligible and did not serve in Vietnam, you "betrayed your country."

This is what it has come to. Ladies and gentlemen, sometimes I pause and ask myself whether I'm too hard on the Democratic party. Am I just too partisan? I don't think so. I think there is a deep sickness within that party, and we saw a shocking manifestation on Hannity & Colmes.

And, incidentally, wasn't it extreme right-wing nationalists who, once upon a time, cried "Treason!" whenever someone didn't go to war? And now it's nice Democratic consultants. Used to be, liberal Democrats defended men who didn't go to Vietnam — even praised them, held them out as the "real heroes"! That's certainly the way it was when I was growing up, in Ann Arbor.

History is weird. America is weird. This presidential campaign is beyond-weird.

Al, Sorry I only listed these. There were so many I had to cull them out a bit. Al, they have this thing called Google. It is a great tool. It looks up stuff for you.

I have sent to Hannity and Colmes for a transcript for you. I am sure if you saw it yourself, you would not admit it anyway.

Funny, I was discharged from the Reserves, I dont feel like a "betrayer." But I guess me and Al have something in common now. We "betrayed" out country..

Must be though. Afterall, a Democratic Party Leader just said so on National TV. We all know that they only have the interest of the country at heart.....

Funny, I was discharged from the Reserves, I dont feel like a "betrayer." But I guess me and Al have something in common now. We "betrayed" out country..

I knew it! You are secretly George Bush!

[DKW 86 7,433]

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

National Review Online

August 25, 2004, 9:39 a.m.

Bush the Betrayer, the German jihadist, Milosz’s legacy, &c.

The oddest thing happened on Hannity & Colmes Monday night. A Democratic strategist, Mary Anne Marsh, was giving it to President Bush, as you might have expected. But here's what you might not have expected: She said, "Bush betrayed this country about why we went to war in Iraq" — so far, so good (or rather, so far, so normal) — "just like he betrayed them when he didn't fight in Vietnam." Say what? Bush betrayed his country because he served in the Guard, not in Vietnam itself? Are you kidding?

No, she was not kidding — she repeated her charge, that Bush had "betrayed his country." Okay — so must have every eligible man who did not serve in Vietnam. All traitors. Including Bill Clinton, of course, and many others Mary Anne Marsh must admire. That is the criterion: If you were eligible and did not serve in Vietnam, you "betrayed your country."

This is what it has come to. Ladies and gentlemen, sometimes I pause and ask myself whether I'm too hard on the Democratic party. Am I just too partisan? I don't think so. I think there is a deep sickness within that party, and we saw a shocking manifestation on Hannity & Colmes.

And, incidentally, wasn't it extreme right-wing nationalists who, once upon a time, cried "Treason!" whenever someone didn't go to war? And now it's nice Democratic consultants. Used to be, liberal Democrats defended men who didn't go to Vietnam — even praised them, held them out as the "real heroes"! That's certainly the way it was when I was growing up, in Ann Arbor.

History is weird. America is weird. This presidential campaign is beyond-weird.

Al, Sorry I only listed these. There were so many I had to cull them out a bit. Al, they have this thing called Google. It is a great tool. It looks up stuff for you.

I have sent to Hannity and Colmes for a transcript for you. I am sure if you saw it yourself, you would not admit it anyway.

Funny, I was discharged from the Reserves, I dont feel like a "betrayer." But I guess me and Al have something in common now. We "betrayed" out country..

Must be though. Afterall, a Democratic Party Leader just said so on National TV. We all know that they only have the interest of the country at heart.....

Funny, I was discharged from the Reserves, I dont feel like a "betrayer." But I guess me and Al have something in common now. We "betrayed" out country..

I knew it! You are secretly George Bush!

Nice try at a save there.

[Tiger Al 0]

I'm not interested in Jeff Goldstein's opinion, David.

I'm not interested in "John's" opinion that links to Jeff Goldstein's opinion.

I'm not even interested in Paul Drabek's opinion.

We've seen this already...it's an opinion piece.

David, all you've done here is link to chat sites where people gave their opinion's on what was said. If I link to a poster on Democratic Underground's board who says Bush let 9/11 happen does that prove that assertion? No. Neither does this.

Did Marsh say that every person who was eligible for Vietnam and went instead into the guard was a betrayer? Jay Nordlinger didn't say she said that, but both you and he have concluded that she did. He even said, "Okay — so must have every eligible man who did not serve in Vietnam."

I know what Google is and am very adept at using it. I'm also very adept at reading and, according to the rules that are posted, the onus is on YOU, the poster, to provide a link so as not to start unsubstantiated rumors. Rule number 5. You said, "Dem Strategist Marsh says Natl Guard "betrayed their country" in Vietnam." You then said, "She stayed fast with her statement that Natl Guardsmen "Betrayed their country." Nordlinger, whom you've quoted, seems to be contridicting you because he says she said Bush, not ALL NG as you said.

Your utter hatred of all things Democratic has clouded your judgement.

[DKW 86 7,433]

I'm not interested in Jeff Goldstein's opinion, David.

I'm not interested in "John's" opinion that links to Jeff Goldstein's opinion.

I'm not even interested in Paul Drabek's opinion.

We've seen this already...it's an opinion piece.

David, all you've done here is link to chat sites where people gave their opinion's on what was said. If I link to a poster on Democratic Underground's board who says Bush let 9/11 happen does that prove that assertion? No. Neither does this.

Did Marsh say that every person who was eligible for Vietnam and went instead into the guard was a betrayer? Jay Nordlinger didn't say she said that, but both you and he have concluded that she did. He even said, "Okay — so must have every eligible man who did not serve in Vietnam."

I know what Google is and am very adept at using it. I'm also very adept at reading and, according to the rules that are posted, the onus is on YOU, the poster, to provide a link so as not to start unsubstantiated rumors. Rule number 5. You said, "Dem Strategist Marsh says Natl Guard "betrayed their country" in Vietnam." You then said, "She stayed fast with her statement that Natl Guardsmen "Betrayed their country." Nordlinger, whom you've quoted, seems to be contridicting you because he says she said Bush, not ALL NG as you said.

Your utter hatred of all things Democratic has clouded your judgement.

That's right Al. Just ignore what she said.

Ignore that umpteen different blogs refer to it now.

Ignore that National Review said it happened, a nationally recognized political magazine.

"Bush betrayed this country about why we went to war in Iraq" — so far, so good (or rather, so far, so normal) — "just like he betrayed them when he didn't fight in Vietnam." Say what? Bush betrayed his country because he served in the Guard, not in Vietnam itself? Are you kidding?

No, she was not kidding — she repeated her charge, that Bush had "betrayed his country." Okay — so must have every eligible man who did not serve in Vietnam. All traitors. Including Bill Clinton, of course, and many others Mary Anne Marsh must admire. That is the criterion: If you were eligible and did not serve in Vietnam, you "betrayed your country."

You asked for a Link, I gave you 4. You might not care for one. You got 4 and told how to find several dozen more.

You say you can read and know how to use Google? Funny you were awfully blank on that info just a few posts above.

Tiger Al Posted on Aug 25 2004, 11:31 PM

  QUOTE (AUloggerhead @ Aug 26 2004, 12:02 AM)

FYI -- In addition to doing Hannity & Colmes on Fox TV, Sean Hannity also has his own afternoon radio talk show, 3-6 pm Eastern, M-F. Link He's affiliated with the ABC network on the radio. 

Already checked it out...no mention of it there, either. 

Don't forget about this, David.

Just trying to help.

[TexasTiger 12,969]

I'm not interested in Jeff Goldstein's opinion, David.

I'm not interested in "John's" opinion that links to Jeff Goldstein's opinion.

I'm not even interested in  Paul Drabek's opinion.

We've seen this already...it's an opinion piece.

David, all you've done here is link to chat sites where people gave their opinion's on what was said. If I link to a poster on Democratic Underground's board who says Bush let 9/11 happen does that prove that assertion? No. Neither does this.

Did Marsh say that every person who was eligible for Vietnam and went instead into the guard was a betrayer? Jay Nordlinger didn't say she said that, but both you and he have concluded that she did. He even said, "Okay — so must have every eligible man who did not serve in Vietnam."

I know what Google is and am very adept at using it. I'm also very adept at reading and, according to the rules that are posted, the onus is on YOU, the poster, to provide a link so as not to start unsubstantiated rumors. Rule number 5. You said, "Dem Strategist Marsh says Natl Guard "betrayed their country" in Vietnam." You then said, "She stayed fast with her statement that Natl Guardsmen "Betrayed their country." Nordlinger, whom you've quoted, seems to be contridicting you because he says she said Bush, not ALL NG as you said.

Your utter hatred of all things Democratic has clouded your judgement.

That's right Al. Just ignore what she said.

Ignore that umpteen different blogs refer to it now.

Ignore that National Review said it happened, a nationally recognized political magazine.

"Bush betrayed this country about why we went to war in Iraq" — so far, so good (or rather, so far, so normal) — "just like he betrayed them when he didn't fight in Vietnam." Say what? Bush betrayed his country because he served in the Guard, not in Vietnam itself? Are you kidding?

No, she was not kidding — she repeated her charge, that Bush had "betrayed his country." Okay — so must have every eligible man who did not serve in Vietnam. All traitors. Including Bill Clinton, of course, and many others Mary Anne Marsh must admire. That is the criterion: If you were eligible and did not serve in Vietnam, you "betrayed your country."

You asked for a Link, I gave you 4. You might not care for one. You got 4 and told how to find several dozen more.

You say you can read and know how to use Google? Funny you were awfully blank on that info just a few posts above.

Tiger Al Posted on Aug 25 2004, 11:31 PM

  QUOTE (AUloggerhead @ Aug 26 2004, 12:02 AM)

FYI -- In addition to doing Hannity & Colmes on Fox TV, Sean Hannity also has his own afternoon radio talk show, 3-6 pm Eastern, M-F. Link He's affiliated with the ABC network on the radio. 

Already checked it out...no mention of it there, either. 

Don't forget about this, David.

Just trying to help.

David:

Why don't you simply admit that you mischaracterized her "quote" when you said

She stayed fast with her statement that Natl Guardsmen "Betrayed their country."

You're free to say that is how you sincerely interpreted what she said. You're free to argue for the validity of your interpretation. But by all other accounts, she said the Bush betrayed this country. It would be a rather small point if you would just recognize this simple fact.

[Tiger Al 0]

Ignore that National Review said it happened, a nationally recognized political magazine.

There's been a disconnect on your part. I've never said it didn't happen.

That's right Al. Just ignore what she said.

David, the problem here is that we (we who didn't see, or hear(!), Hannity and colmes) don't really know what she said other than the one sentence that has been quoted. We don't know what question she was responding to or anything else she might've said in support of the quoted sentence. We don't know the dialogue that occurred after she said it or what her response to that was. In other words, we have a sentence fragment taken out of the context it was made and furthermore, we have your story which varies significantly from the guy, Jeff Goldstein, who was also on the program with her. You say she was referring to the entire National Guard, while he says (seemingly, from his quote) that she was referring only to Bush. That's a pretty wide chasm.

Ignore that umpteen different blogs refer to it now.

The blogs are useless because they don't show the transcript, either. Again, if I post blog entries from the black helicopter crowd that say Bush knew we would be attacked on 9/11 does that make it true? If so, then I'll stop wasting time looking over NEWS ARTICLES and simply root out peoples opinions on any particular subject. Hell, I'll just skip the middleman and post my own opinions and, according to your logic here, that'll make it an irrefutable fact, right?

You asked for a Link, I gave you 4. You might not care for one. You got 4 and told how to find several dozen more.

You say you can read and know how to use Google? Funny you were awfully blank on that info just a few posts above.

No blanks here. I looked at Hannity's radio website and there was no mention of it. In fact, the last archived piece available was "On the Street Interviews" from July, 18th. Check it out for yourself.

Just trying to help.

No, you're trying to do exactly the opposite by evading the fact that you played fast and loose (again) with the facts in your interpretation of what someone from a political party that you hate said.

[TitanTiger 20,504]

I look forward to the transcript, too, because this is the closest I can find, and even though its over the top, it is a far cry from what David seemed to hear.

Why is it a far cry? Was she saying the Bush betrayed his country by some other means? She was clearly referring to him going the National Guard route instead of signing up for the regular army and going to 'Nam. Problem is, Bush wasn't the only person who missed going to 'Nam by being in the Guard. If Bush betrayed the country by doing this, then by implication so did every one else who took that route. Is there really some other way to read this that I'm not seeing?

And has it occured to you that perhaps either Hannity had the clip on his radio show the next day or even Rush? Is it really that big of a technological leap?

I'm not defending her comments because I don't agree with them, but she could have meant that by pulling strings to get a coveted pilot slot and then not even showing up for your flight physical and facing no real consequences for not training at what the taxpayers spent a bunch of bucks for you to become, and then apparently not even showing up regularly after pulling additional strings to work on a partisan campaign, was a betrayal in a sense that would not apply to someone who got into the guard without pulling strings and diligently showed up for what they were trained for. She could have the view that Bush cynically used the Guard in a way most members did not. If she had wanted to make a blanket statement about the Guard, as David stated she did, then it seems she would have done so.

She may just share Colin Powell's anger:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed managed to wrangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." Colin Powell

Isn't Powell saying that someone in George Bush's shoes failed to show "equal allegiance to the country" as compared to those who went to Viet Nam because they lacked the influence. That's getting close to a form of betrayal, is it not?

Titan:

Your take on my response?

I would say that Powell was very specific about what he didn't care for and I would agree with him. I would further say that Mary Anne Walsh's comments...

"...just like he betrayed them when he (Bush) didn't fight in Vietnam."

...did not give that level of detail or even infer it. And according to people who've seen the broadcast, she was asked about what she said and she simply reiterated it. No further explanation. No qualification that she meant that he pulled strings (a completely unproven charge anyway). Just left it out there. She said GWB betrayed his country when he didn't fight in Vietnam.

If you can get in touch with her and get her to remove her foot long enough to clarify and apologize to men like my dad, I'm all ears.

[TitanTiger 20,504]

I'm sorry, but the argument that she's just saying Bush betrayed his country by not going to Vietnam, but not implicating everyone else to went into the Guard and avoided service there just doesn't wash. Not unless I hear an explanation from her and an apology to those who have every reason to be offended by what she actually said.

[Tiger Al 0]

I'm sorry, but the argument that she's just saying Bush betrayed his country by not going to Vietnam, but not implicating everyone else to went into the Guard and avoided service there just doesn't wash. Not unless I hear an explanation from her and an apology to those who have every reason to be offended by what she actually said.

Why is it so less washable than jumping to the conclusion that she meant that everybody that didn't serve in Vietnam betrayed their country? She didn't say, "Everybody knows that avoiding Vietnam was what the Guard was for." There was a segment of the population for which that sentence would've been valid and I, and she, believe Bush was in that segment. Did EVERYONE in the Guard fall into that category? Hell no. She would've never been able to explain that, though, because Hannity and his ilk aren't interested in hearing any answers other than the ones that fit into their agenda. They'll ask a very broad, "gray" question and demand a "black or white" answer. Yes or no? Right or wrong? Is it or isn't it? Then, the guest gets badgered every third word as they're trying to answer. Maybe that's what happened here. Maybe not. Which has been my point all along; we don't have a transcript of what was said, Fox doesn't provide a video clip of the segment and we have conflicting descriptions from David and Jeff Goldstein of what actually transpired. David is accusing this woman of smearing not only all Guardsmen from the Vietnam era but also him and me, too! How is all that the more likely inference from what we think she said?

[TitanTiger 20,504]

Well, I guess we'll have to wait for a full transcript, but what I'm reading doesn't lead me to believe she was referring to a narrow segment at all. I looks to me like she wanted to score a political cheap shot and stuck her foot in her mouth. She wanted to imply that Bush going into the Guard during the Vietnam war was less honorable, even a "betrayal", compared to what Kerry did. But a lot of folks went into the Guard and unless/until she qualifies her statement, she's made a blanket statement implicating them all. And she, even three days later apparently hasn't corrected or clarified what she said. At least not anywhere I can find.

[Tigermike 3,044]

I served from 1969 to 1973, full time. I wasn't in the reserve so I guess she wasn't talking about me, was she, or was she? I didn't go to Vietnam but by her logic maybe I was a traitor.

[Tiger Al 0]

She wanted to imply that Bush going into the Guard during the Vietnam war was less honorable, even a "betrayal", compared to what Kerry did.

That implication would be true.

I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes.  George W. Bush  1990

This statement seems to indicate what his motives were at the time.

[Tigermike 3,044]

She wanted to imply that Bush going into the Guard during the Vietnam war was less honorable, even a "betrayal", compared to what Kerry did.

That implication would be true.

I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes.  George W. Bush  1990

This statement seems to indicate what his motives were at the time.

Oh the broad brush strokes the Democrats use against everyone else. But when scrutinizing their own they want the micro brushes brought out don't they?

You are so right Carl! He was willing to serve and did so. He made a conscious decision to serve and not go to Canada or do anything else to avoid serving.

[TitanTiger 20,504]

And I'll bet that 80% or more of the people who went into the Guard probably had that as one of their motives as well. I'm sorry, but I reject the notion that serving the country in a different capacity because one didn't want to go to Vietnam was a "betrayal". Do you?