The Key to Defeating COVID-19 Already Exists. We Need to Start Using It

[SocialCircle 570]

1 hour ago, savorytiger said:

I guess this isn't the easiest reading, but I'm not sure you're putting in the same effort I am. Anyway, from https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2575-3:

First line actually refers to the 2005 article you linked about how CQ inhibits COVID spead in kidney cells. Basically, nothing has changed on impact to lung cells. We're getting more information on the mechanisms how how COVID works, and these mechanisms indicate HCQ never worked on lung cells in the first place.

Per this doctor, you are incorrect. Here is what changed:

 

[savorytiger 182]

 

1 hour ago, SocialCircle said:

Per this doctor, you are incorrect. Here is what changed:

 

America's Frontline Doctors is the group that came out w/ the viral video a few weeks back with Alien DNA/Demon sex doctor. Look into your sources a bit more. Aside from issues of the source, he in no way shows that Calu-3 is not a representation of how a healthy lung cell is affected by COVID, nor does he show that HCQ protects healthy lung cells. Nothing of what he's saying is backed up by studies. Wikipedia isn't always a great source, but this page shows a number of published articles on CALU-3 as an accurate model for healthy lung tissue for clinical testing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calu-3. 

Look, I'm open to seeing evidence that works because there's nothing to gain from denying actual treatment. When peer reviewed randomized trials actually show HCQ or HCQ + zinc (and even then you're admitting it's not HCQ that's actually acting on the virus) or whatever is an effecitve treatment for COVID, I'll be happy to jump on board. Until anything substantial comes out, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[SocialCircle 570]

3 minutes ago, savorytiger said:

 

America's Frontline Doctors is the group that came out w/ the viral video a few weeks back with Alien DNA/Demon sex doctor. Look into your sources a bit more. Aside from issues of the source, he in no way shows that Calu-3 is not a representation of how a healthy lung cell is affected by COVID, nor does he show that HCQ protects healthy lung cells. Nothing of what he's saying is backed up by studies. Wikipedia isn't always a great source, but this page shows a number of published articles on CALU-3 as an accurate model for healthy lung tissue for clinical testing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calu-3. 

Look, I'm open to seeing evidence that works because there's nothing to gain from denying actual treatment. When peer reviewed randomized trials actually show HCQ or HCQ + zinc (and even then you're admitting it's not HCQ that's actually acting on the virus) or whatever is an effecitve treatment for COVID, I'll be happy to jump on board. Until anything substantial comes out, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I know who the doctor is and he is very experienced and has a very impressive resume.  I trust what he says in this video and I also believe him when he says the study you cited was biased.  I agree with your last sentence.  And just to be clear my opinion is this regimen can help a good number of people when given early enough and correctly and it can harm very, very few people.  I am not suggesting it to be a cure.  I do believe it to be a life saver though and currently should be used more in the US to save lives.  

[wdefromtx 3,159]

1 hour ago, SocialCircle said:

Per this doctor, you are incorrect. Here is what changed:

 

I think HCQ works in some patients, but I’m not sure I want an opthamologist treating me for Covid. 

[aubiefifty 16,778]

[Grumps 3,704]

"Current tests for active infection with SARS-CoV-2 are highly sensitive—but most are given to suspected COVID-19 patients long after the infected person has stopped transmitting the virus to others. That means the results are virtually useless for public-health efforts to contain the raging pandemic. These PCR (polymerase chain reaction) tests, which amplify viral RNA to detectable levels, are used by physicians, often in hospital settings, to help guide clinical care for individual patients. In general, members of the public have not had access to such tests outside clinical settings, but even if they did, would find them too expensive for frequent use.

Furthermore, such tests detect tiny fragments of viral RNA even after the patient has recovered. Mina says that means “the vast majority of PCR positive tests we currently collect in this country are actually finding people long after they have ceased to be infectious.” In that sense, a positive result can be misleading, because the results can’t be relied on to guide the epidemiological efforts of public-health officials, which are focused on preventing transmission and controlling outbreaks: “The astounding realization is that all we’re doing with all of this testing is clogging up the testing infrastructure,” with results arriving a week or more after tests are administered, “and essentially finding people for whom we can’t even act because they are done transmitting.” In fact the testing backlog is so dire, and so “absolutely horrendously useless as a system for public-health surveillance,” that Mina believes the United States should at the very least throw away the millions and millions of samples that are waiting to be tested—and perhaps even halt the current testing regime and just start over."

[SocialCircle 570]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

The virus is going to spread whether children go back to school or protests and riots in liberal cities happen or not. Do you really think children are just going to isolate if they don’t go to school? I mean travel ball and even high schools have been practicing team sports for several weeks already. 

[savorytiger 182]

6 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

I think HCQ works in some patients, but I’m not sure I want an opthamologist treating me for Covid. 

I posted a video with someone who established a viral research lab in Cornel, a professor who runs a research lab on virology at Michigan, and 2 more carreer researchers into that field, but SC's doctor has a 4.4 rating on WebMD, so I understand why he prefers the opthamologist's opinion.

[SocialCircle 570]

10 minutes ago, savorytiger said:

I posted a video with someone who established a viral research lab in Cornel, a professor who runs a research lab on virology at Michigan, and 2 more carreer researchers into that field, but SC's doctor has a 4.4 rating on WebMD, so I understand why he prefers the opthamologist's opinion.

It is actually many doctors who believe like the doctor in this last video that a disinformation campaign is going on. Including this one: Steven Hatfill is a veteran virologist who helped establish the Rapid Hemorrhagic Fever Response Teams for the National Medical Disaster Unit in Kenya, Africa. He is an adjunct assistant professor in two departments at the George Washington University Medical Center where he teaches mass casualty medicine. He is principle author of the prophetic book “Three Seconds Until Midnight -- Preparing for the Next Pandemic,” published by Amazon in 2019

[savorytiger 182]

1 hour ago, SocialCircle said:

It is actually many doctors who believe like the doctor in this last video that a disinformation campaign is going on. Including this one: Steven Hatfill is a veteran virologist who helped establish the Rapid Hemorrhagic Fever Response Teams for the National Medical Disaster Unit in Kenya, Africa. He is an adjunct assistant professor in two departments at the George Washington University Medical Center where he teaches mass casualty medicine. He is principle author of the prophetic book “Three Seconds Until Midnight -- Preparing for the Next Pandemic,” published by Amazon in 2019

Last time I'll spend any time responding on this topic. This was from the article you posted earlier and I already responded to the content. If you want to compare sources, you still have a ways to go. Find new information, and hopefully it isn't an article that doesn't cite any actual studies and has a graph with 4 lines of clearly cherry-picked data. I'm open to changing my opinion if something persuasive comes out. You just haven't posted anything that's anywhere close to that.

PS: HCQ + zinc is being evaluated, with an early trial that hasn't been peer reviewed yet showing that the two does not help: https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/adjunctive-therapy/zinc/. There are a few others that are ongoing, though, and I'm hoping I'll be surprised by the results of those.

[TitanTiger 20,481]

The persistence of people who choose to believe in some vast conspiracy surrounding COVID-19, Trump, HCQ, masks and so on is honestly the dumbest thing I've seen in my lifetime.  Once they go down that rabbit hole, there's almost no turning back.  More facts only convince them more that their suspicions are correct and they dig their heels in even harder.

I had to unfollow a couple dozen folks on social media because their posts on this crap were dominating my newsfeed/timeline so much.  Just had to reclaim some peace and sanity.

[SocialCircle 570]

51 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

The persistence of people who choose to believe in some vast conspiracy surrounding COVID-19, Trump, HCQ, masks and so on is honestly the dumbest thing I've seen in my lifetime.  Once they go down that rabbit hole, there's almost no turning back.  More facts only convince them more that their suspicions are correct and they dig their heels in even harder.

I had to unfollow a couple dozen folks on social media because their posts on this crap were dominating my newsfeed/timeline so much.  Just had to reclaim some peace and sanity.

There is definitely a clear and obvious campaign to trash HCQ. It only occurred after Trump mentioned it as possibly being helpful. So the reaction is in some ways political. What other drug had two studies from two highly respected publications that trashed the drug retracted? There is a clear attempt to make as many as possible fear this drug as it relates to COVID-19. 
 

I understand it has yet to be scientifically proven. I also understand that is hard to do quickly and because this regimen needs to be given so early in treatment to be effective it is hard to prove whether it was the drugs that helped or whether your case wasn’t as severe as others. However, it is crystal clear of the obvious attempt to trash this regimen. It is also  unjustified because this regimen can harm very, very, very few people but it can possibly save lives. 

[Mikey 16,587]

1 hour ago, SocialCircle said:

There is definitely a clear and obvious campaign to trash HCQ. It only occurred after Trump mentioned it as possibly being helpful.

This is accurate, whether HCQ works or not. I have two extended family members that have been taking HCQ for long periods of time for arthritis. It's commonly prescribed and the listed possible side effects are no worse than those that are listed for aspirin.

While the effectiveness of HCQ as a treatment for this virus is still uncertain, the blah-blah about it being dangerous and therefore shouldn't be prescribed for treating the virus is a politically motivated hoax.

[aubiefifty 16,778]

1 hour ago, Mikey said:

This is accurate, whether HCQ works or not. I have two extended family members that have been taking HCQ for long periods of time for arthritis. It's commonly prescribed and the listed possible side effects are no worse than those that are listed for aspirin.

While the effectiveness of HCQ as a treatment for this virus is still uncertain, the blah-blah about it being dangerous and therefore shouldn't be prescribed for treating the virus is a politically motivated hoax.

the us has more than three times the deaths and sick of covid than any other country in the world. you guys were all on here saying what a great job trump was doing because yall smudge or change the facts all you can. when trump was confronted with this he said" IT is what it is". no remorse. and of course he pushed all those Govenor's on the right he could to open stuff up early and what happened? more deaths and more sickness.

[aubiefifty 16,778]

this is just one day and one school.

 

By Trisha Powell Crain | tcrain@al.com

Five students in a south Alabama high school are now in quarantine after coming in close contact with an individual who tested positive for COVID-19 after the first day of school on Thursday.

“We had an individual who last night started developing symptoms of COVID-19,” Saraland City Schools Superintendent Aaron Milner told AL.com. “They had contracted it from a family member, it appears.”

Milner said the individual called the principal of Saraland High, just north of Mobile, on Friday morning to report the illness. After receiving a positive COVID-19 test, the individual reported it to the school.

The district reported the case to the Mobile health department, he said. “In consultation with them, we then began working on contact tracing.”

Through careful tracing and examination of seating charts, they determined the individual had come into close contact with only five students at the high school. Those students were sent home, where they will now do distance learning during the 14-day quarantine.

All five of those students wore masks at school, Milner said.

Milner said faculty and staff have worked hard to social distance and set up a safe environment at school.

He said it was remarkable considering the circumstances. “For the whole day, when you consider that we had some 3,030 individuals in all of our schools, due to our spreading out as much as possible, and we had only five that met the (close contact) criteria.”

About the students, Milner said, “By all indications, they’re a little upset about getting sent home.”

“We could not have asked for a more supportive response from (the students’) guardians and parents,” he said.

[homersapien 11,371]

7 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

The persistence of people who choose to believe in some vast conspiracy surrounding COVID-19, Trump, HCQ, masks and so on is honestly the dumbest thing I've seen in my lifetime.  Once they go down that rabbit hole, there's almost no turning back.  More facts only convince them more that their suspicions are correct and they dig their heels in even harder.

I had to unfollow a couple dozen folks on social media because their posts on this crap were dominating my newsfeed/timeline so much.  Just had to reclaim some peace and sanity.

Actually, it's to be expected. 

When people are confronted with a problem such as an uncontrolled pandemic for which the solutions are very difficult or even unknown, they will invent or ascribe to solutions or cures on the basis of desperation and/or it can't hurt.

My grandfather was a child during the "Spanish flu".  His mother attached a bag of phenol around his neck (which burned his chest and left a scar).

And then there's the placebo effect, which can be very powerful, at least in some people.  This combined with the desire for it to work can easily convince people to firmly believe or accept the results (they are looking for).

But it's not science - which would consist of randomized blind studies with a placebo that includes a significant number of patients - at least in the hundreds, if not thousands.   Anything short of that may sound hopeful - that's what prompts the scientific studies in the first place - but such anecdotal "evidence" is not the final, definitive, scientific answer to efficacy.

My hats off to you savorytiger for your repeated efforts to explain this, but it's a sisyphean task when talking to a typical "lay" person.

[savorytiger 182]

3 hours ago, Mikey said:

This is accurate, whether HCQ works or not. I have two extended family members that have been taking HCQ for long periods of time for arthritis. It's commonly prescribed and the listed possible side effects are no worse than those that are listed for aspirin.

While the effectiveness of HCQ as a treatment for this virus is still uncertain, the blah-blah about it being dangerous and therefore shouldn't be prescribed for treating the virus is a politically motivated hoax.

It's possible to have a negative reaction to something Trump does without it being politically motivated. When the president touts a cure for a dangerous virus before effectiveness is proven, alarms should go off. There was a huge spike in HCQ usage after he talked about it and made it difficult to obtain for people who relied on it for autoimmune diseases. 

I do agree that HCQ is unlikely to be dangerous for people to take. At worst, I've seen a few publications note some naesea from taking the medicine. It could be a problem if a patient is only given HCQ treatments over something like Dexamethasone, which has had positive clinical trials. 

[savorytiger 182]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

My hats off to you savorytiger for your repeated efforts to explain this, but it's a sisyphean task when talking to a typical "lay" person.

Eh. This really shouldn't be the case, and also speaks to a bit of intellectual elitism that I'm not super comfortable about. I'm just another "lay" person hoping not to get caught in my own echo chamber.

I'm not really sure there was a point of all this other than slowly collecting emojis. SC was never going to change his mind on HCQ. Maybe I enjoying arguing with people on the internet too much being cooped up from this stupid pandemic, but I'd guess most people on this board could relate.

[homersapien 11,371]

1 hour ago, savorytiger said:

Eh. This really shouldn't be the case, and also speaks to a bit of intellectual elitism that I'm not super comfortable about. I'm just another "lay" person hoping not to get caught in my own echo chamber.

I'm not really sure there was a point of all this other than slowly collecting emojis. SC was never going to change his mind on HCQ. Maybe I enjoying arguing with people on the internet too much being cooped up from this stupid pandemic, but I'd guess most people on this board could relate.

"Intellectualism elitism" has nothing to do with it.  I apologize if I implied that.  

Look, you either fully understand the science of experimental testing or not, in this case relating to clinical testing of drugs.

Relatively few people do understand it because relatively few people have actually practiced it.  (IMO, true understanding depends primarily on direct experience - or at least extensive formal sturdy.)

A 'layman' by definition is either 1) a nonordained male member of a church or 2) a person without professional or specialized knowledge in a particular subject. 

Thus, we are all "laymen" in whatever field we haven't practiced or studied extensively. So there's certainly no shame in not  having a complete understanding of why things like randomization, double blindness of treatments, and placebo controls are so critical for scientifically valid results. 

Apparently - from your references - the few studies that have been scientifically conducted have not shown a benefit. While that's not necessarily conclusive, no amount of data from  scientifically-flawed studies can prove it is effective. 

A "layman" is not likely to fully appreciate - or 'weight' that distinction.  They're more likely to stick with their "gut" based on their general reading.

Heck, it's what I do when I venture into fields I don't fully understand. It's what we all do probably.

 

 

[SocialCircle 570]

5 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

the us has more than three times the deaths and sick of covid than any other country in the world. you guys were all on here saying what a great job trump was doing because yall smudge or change the facts all you can. when trump was confronted with this he said" IT is what it is". no remorse. and of course he pushed all those Govenor's on the right he could to open stuff up early and what happened? more deaths and more sickness.

This is factually incorrect. There have been more deaths and higher deaths rates per 100,00 in states that stayed closed longer.

[SocialCircle 570]

5 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

this is just one day and one school.

 

By Trisha Powell Crain | tcrain@al.com

Five students in a south Alabama high school are now in quarantine after coming in close contact with an individual who tested positive for COVID-19 after the first day of school on Thursday.

“We had an individual who last night started developing symptoms of COVID-19,” Saraland City Schools Superintendent Aaron Milner told AL.com. “They had contracted it from a family member, it appears.”

Milner said the individual called the principal of Saraland High, just north of Mobile, on Friday morning to report the illness. After receiving a positive COVID-19 test, the individual reported it to the school.

The district reported the case to the Mobile health department, he said. “In consultation with them, we then began working on contact tracing.”

Through careful tracing and examination of seating charts, they determined the individual had come into close contact with only five students at the high school. Those students were sent home, where they will now do distance learning during the 14-day quarantine.

All five of those students wore masks at school, Milner said.

Milner said faculty and staff have worked hard to social distance and set up a safe environment at school.

He said it was remarkable considering the circumstances. “For the whole day, when you consider that we had some 3,030 individuals in all of our schools, due to our spreading out as much as possible, and we had only five that met the (close contact) criteria.”

About the students, Milner said, “By all indications, they’re a little upset about getting sent home.”

“We could not have asked for a more supportive response from (the students’) guardians and parents,” he said.

This is exactly what should happen. Text book perfect! We had a football player test positive and had some quarantined for 14 days too. None of them showed any symptoms and they were all back practicing as of August 4th. 

[SocialCircle 570]

3 hours ago, savorytiger said:

It's possible to have a negative reaction to something Trump does without it being politically motivated. When the president touts a cure for a dangerous virus before effectiveness is proven, alarms should go off. There was a huge spike in HCQ usage after he talked about it and made it difficult to obtain for people who relied on it for autoimmune diseases. 

I do agree that HCQ is unlikely to be dangerous for people to take. At worst, I've seen a few publications note some naesea from taking the medicine. It could be a problem if a patient is only given HCQ treatments over something like Dexamethasone, which has had positive clinical trials. 

I agree it is possible to have a negative reaction to Trump without it being political. I have that reaction to him from time to time. I believe the way this medicine has been trashed is beyond the pale and would never had occurred if Trump had not spoken about the possibility of it being good as a treatment for this virus. I’m certain of it and therefore I absolutely believe some of it is political.
 

I do not recall Trump touting this as a cure. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. Also, I completely understand the regimen isn’t scientifically proven and I don’t believe I’ve ever said otherwise. I do believe it has already saved lives and has helped numerous people get better quicker and while having fewer issues with this virus than they would have had they not taken this drug. So you guys are talking back and forth and saying things that much of I agree with, but you are saying I don’t agree with it. You are wrong on some of those assumptions. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

That part I’m certain of, of Trump hasn’t touted it I’m sure less people would be so polarized about it. If it works in some people it works, if it doesn’t it does t. It’s that simple. 

[aubiefifty 16,778]

3 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

That part I’m certain of, of Trump hasn’t touted it I’m sure less people would be so polarized about it. If it works in some people it works, if it doesn’t it does t. It’s that simple. 

the problem with trump is he tells whoppers every single day. no one in their right mind would believe a word of what he says without proof. i mean he even lies about stuff when he does not have to. i just cannot believe how low he has stooped and it is fine with so many on the right.  the problem is if mithc and company retain the senate biden will play getting anything done to benefit america. they certainly did it with obama. his second term in office i did not get even close to a cost of living increase because mitch would not allow it. i think by law obama could give almost one percent without the senates approval.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

37 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

the problem with trump is he tells whoppers every single day. no one in their right mind would believe a word of what he says without proof. i mean he even lies about stuff when he does not have to. i just cannot believe how low he has stooped and it is fine with so many on the right.  the problem is if mithc and company retain the senate biden will play getting anything done to benefit america. they certainly did it with obama. his second term in office i did not get even close to a cost of living increase because mitch would not allow it. i think by law obama could give almost one percent without the senates approval.

That already happens.....those idiots in Congress couldn't even reach a deal with the latest Coronavirus Stimulus. Ugh. 

 

As far as the COL raise, I feel ya. But many people in the private sector didn't get one in the Obama years due to the slow economy. In fact in many construction and engineering sectors a pay cut was more common.