Denmark bans sex with animals.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Amen to that Golf

[quietfan 233]

Guess what, folks: Definitions of morality and legality change all the time.

At some point in Western history all of the following were considered immoral, disreputable, and/or illegal:

Protestantism

Translating the Bible into any language other than the Latin approved by the Pope

Letting a woman vote

Manufacturing, selling, or buying alcohol for non-religious or non-medical purposes

Marrying outside of your station or class

Bathing too frequently

Teaching African-Americans to read

Heterosexual sex, inside or outside marriage, for pleasure's sake alone

Eating red meat on Fridays

Suggesting that government should be "of the people, by the people, and for the people" with the consent of the governed

Working on the Sabbath

Shopping on the Sabbath

Playing on the Sabbath/Any form of frivolity on the Sabbath (Bet the NFL and its fans are glad we changed that one!)

Leaving the manor/fiefdom without the consent of the Lord of the Manor.

A woman exposing her bare ankle or midriff

Possession of adult pornography by adults (and SI's swimsuit issue, the old Sears catalog, National Geographic magazine, and Victoria's Secret ads would qualify as "pornography")

Selling alcohol to native Americans

Marrying outside your race

Professional acting

Divorce for any reason other than adultery or inability to produce children

Possessing firearms if not of the proper class/status/governmental position

All forms of artificial contraception

Going out in public while menstruating

Wearing makeup

Rock & roll music

Charging interest on loans

Men and women swimming at the same location together

Men and women sitting side by side in church

Public dining outside of the area designated for your race

etc., etc., etc., etc............

For the Amish, wearing colorful buttons, fighting, and using a telephone/motorcar/radio except in situations of dire emergency remain immoral.

Even today's Hasidic Jews, one of the most conservative cultures on the planet, no longer try to stone someone for blaspheming, working on the Sabbath, committing adultery, or trying to marry if you're not a virgin or widow, even though the Torah clearly calls for the execution of anyone doing so.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Exactly and hence my statement that we don't know what may evolve in the next few years.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Exactly and hence my statement that we don't know what may evolve in the next few years.

So you want to govern the morality of the future? Why don't we just stick to the matter at hand and, not get lost in ridiculous "what ifs".

[AURaptor 1,125]

I have no issue w/ same sex civil unions, but i won't acknowledge or call them " married ", no matter what anyone says.

My view isn't based in religion, bigotry or one iota of homophobia. I just don't think the definition of words need to be changed to suit a vast minority of folks who can have every damn right under the sun as a man and a woman.

Funny, as recent as 2007, Hillary and I were on the same page on this matter. She even tossed in the religious aspect of marriage, where as I don't. Since then, my view hasn't changed, yet I've gone from the vast majority to a slight ( allegedly ) minority, and am seemingly branded as a hater.

I've done nothing wrong. I've denied no one of their rights. Called for no one to be imprisoned, stoned or made to wear pink triangles. But by the way some talk, I might as well have.

[cooltigger21 0]

I know one other thing that is coming down the pike. Within the next 10 years a same sex couple will go to a church that they know does not believe in SSM. They will be turned down and then file suit to force that church and or clergyman to perform their "wedding" It won't go anywhere the first few times but the attempts will keep coming. I bet that right now there is a judge somewhere that would rule in their favor. It would lose at the appellate court although I wouldn't put it past the ninth circus to uphold such a ruling. Also preaching and teaching against homosexuality will soon be labeled hate speech and attempts to shut down churches or have their tax exempt status revoked will be made. You can be sure of one thing. If SSM was declared legal in all 50 states, by either a SCOTUS ruling or Congressional act, they still wouldn't be satisfied

[TitanTiger 20,499]

I know one other thing that is coming down the pike. Within the next 10 years a same sex couple will go to a church that they know does not believe in SSM. They will be turned down and then file suit to force that church and or clergyman to perform their "wedding" It won't go anywhere the first few times but the attempts will keep coming. I bet that right now there is a judge somewhere that would rule in their favor. It would lose at the appellate court although I wouldn't put it past the ninth circus to uphold such a ruling. Also preaching and teaching against homosexuality will soon be labeled hate speech and attempts to shut down churches or have their tax exempt status revoked will be made. You can be sure of one thing. If SSM was declared legal in all 50 states, by either a SCOTUS ruling or Congressional act, they still wouldn't be satisfied

This is a little bit on the nose for what I think the tactic would be. The more likely thing would be to target churches that won't marry same sex couples by pushing for them to lose their tax exempt status and for the offending clergy to lose their clergy tax exemptions.

It's already been talked about by some of the fringe. And they'd have plenty of wiling allies in the straight church-hater crowd.

[Aufan59 65]

I know one other thing that is coming down the pike. Within the next 10 years a same sex couple will go to a church that they know does not believe in SSM. They will be turned down and then file suit to force that church and or clergyman to perform their "wedding" It won't go anywhere the first few times but the attempts will keep coming. I bet that right now there is a judge somewhere that would rule in their favor. It would lose at the appellate court although I wouldn't put it past the ninth circus to uphold such a ruling. Also preaching and teaching against homosexuality will soon be labeled hate speech and attempts to shut down churches or have their tax exempt status revoked will be made. You can be sure of one thing. If SSM was declared legal in all 50 states, by either a SCOTUS ruling or Congressional act, they still wouldn't be satisfied

Churches can ignore laws that require accommodations to the handicapped, based on religious freedom.To think that churches will be required to serve gays is paranoid delusion.

[aubfaninga 16]

I know one other thing that is coming down the pike. Within the next 10 years a same sex couple will go to a church that they know does not believe in SSM. They will be turned down and then file suit to force that church and or clergyman to perform their "wedding" It won't go anywhere the first few times but the attempts will keep coming. I bet that right now there is a judge somewhere that would rule in their favor. It would lose at the appellate court although I wouldn't put it past the ninth circus to uphold such a ruling. Also preaching and teaching against homosexuality will soon be labeled hate speech and attempts to shut down churches or have their tax exempt status revoked will be made. You can be sure of one thing. If SSM was declared legal in all 50 states, by either a SCOTUS ruling or Congressional act, they still wouldn't be satisfied

Churches can ignore laws that require accommodations to the handicapped, based on religious freedom.To think that churches will be required to serve gays is paranoid delusion.

The only difference in the comparisons you provided is most churches do make accommodations for their handicapped members while most will not go to the same lengths for SSM.

[aubfaninga 16]

Guess what, folks: Definitions of morality and legality change all the time.

At some point in Western history all of the following were considered immoral, disreputable, and/or illegal:

Protestantism

Translating the Bible into any language other than the Latin approved by the Pope

Letting a woman vote

Manufacturing, selling, or buying alcohol for non-religious or non-medical purposes

Marrying outside of your station or class

Bathing too frequently

Teaching African-Americans to read

Heterosexual sex, inside or outside marriage, for pleasure's sake alone

Eating red meat on Fridays

Suggesting that government should be "of the people, by the people, and for the people" with the consent of the governed

Working on the Sabbath

Shopping on the Sabbath

Playing on the Sabbath/Any form of frivolity on the Sabbath (Bet the NFL and its fans are glad we changed that one!)

Leaving the manor/fiefdom without the consent of the Lord of the Manor.

A woman exposing her bare ankle or midriff

Possession of adult pornography by adults (and SI's swimsuit issue, the old Sears catalog, National Geographic magazine, and Victoria's Secret ads would qualify as "pornography")

Selling alcohol to native Americans

Marrying outside your race

Professional acting

Divorce for any reason other than adultery or inability to produce children

Possessing firearms if not of the proper class/status/governmental position

All forms of artificial contraception

Going out in public while menstruating

Wearing makeup

Rock & roll music

Charging interest on loans

Men and women swimming at the same location together

Men and women sitting side by side in church

Public dining outside of the area designated for your race

etc., etc., etc., etc............

For the Amish, wearing colorful buttons, fighting, and using a telephone/motorcar/radio except in situations of dire emergency remain immoral.

Even today's Hasidic Jews, one of the most conservative cultures on the planet, no longer try to stone someone for blaspheming, working on the Sabbath, committing adultery, or trying to marry if you're not a virgin or widow, even though the Torah clearly calls for the execution of anyone doing so.

I know you have no interest in discussing this in any detail but please allow me to comment on this and we can just move on.

I have every legal and moral right to take the Bible as literally as my heart desires. It's only when I take my literal interpretation into society and it does not agree with the governing laws of that society that I have went too far.

I completely understand that mankind changes almost everything it touches. BUT I still take the scriptures literal in describing GOD, Man, and our differences.

Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

I could give two cents what "man" changes. I am called to change not my GOD. Jesus addressed "Jews" of his day for their traditions that had strayed from scripture.

Matthew 15:3

Colossians 2:8

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."

[aubfaninga 16]

As incredible as it may sound, we will be dealing with this issue somewhere down the road. The same sex marriage thing opened Pandora's box.

That's an idiotic statement. Just like the lunacy of likening pedophilia with homosexuality, this is a conservative idea that unsuccessfully attempts to link homosexuality with sexual actions in which one party is victimized at the expense of the other.

I do link homosexuality, pedophilia, and many other things into one category. I see them as all equal in being a "sin" (or not in our best interest). Just to lighten the mood even doing a #2 in the woods without covering it up is a "sin", at least for me it is.

I do however see your point that mistreatment of others changes the comparison. I call it stacking "sins". (or for those that don't like biblical terms, multiple offenses)

Being a homosexual does not make you a pedophile. Being a liar does not make you a homosexual. Gossiping about someone does not make you an adulterer. etc...

All make you a "sinner" and the boat we ride is huge.

If I was asked which "sin" that I would make vanish away if I had the power to make either homosexuality or pedophilia and only one of the two... of course it would be pedophilia any day.

[DKW 86 7,426]

Guess what, folks: Definitions of morality and legality change all the time.

At some point in Western history all of the following were considered immoral, disreputable, and/or illegal:

Protestantism

Translating the Bible into any language other than the Latin approved by the Pope

Letting a woman vote

Manufacturing, selling, or buying alcohol for non-religious or non-medical purposes

Marrying outside of your station or class

Bathing too frequently

Teaching African-Americans to read

Heterosexual sex, inside or outside marriage, for pleasure's sake alone

Eating red meat on Fridays

Suggesting that government should be "of the people, by the people, and for the people" with the consent of the governed

Working on the Sabbath

Shopping on the Sabbath

Playing on the Sabbath/Any form of frivolity on the Sabbath (Bet the NFL and its fans are glad we changed that one!)

Leaving the manor/fiefdom without the consent of the Lord of the Manor.

A woman exposing her bare ankle or midriff

Possession of adult pornography by adults (and SI's swimsuit issue, the old Sears catalog, National Geographic magazine, and Victoria's Secret ads would qualify as "pornography")

Selling alcohol to native Americans

Marrying outside your race

Professional acting

Divorce for any reason other than adultery or inability to produce children

Possessing firearms if not of the proper class/status/governmental position

All forms of artificial contraception

Going out in public while menstruating

Wearing makeup

Rock & roll music

Charging interest on loans

Men and women swimming at the same location together

Men and women sitting side by side in church

Public dining outside of the area designated for your race

etc., etc., etc., etc............

For the Amish, wearing colorful buttons, fighting, and using a telephone/motorcar/radio except in situations of dire emergency remain immoral.

Even today's Hasidic Jews, one of the most conservative cultures on the planet, no longer try to stone someone for blaspheming, working on the Sabbath, committing adultery, or trying to marry if you're not a virgin or widow, even though the Torah clearly calls for the execution of anyone doing so.

On the other hand some of this really wasnt the truth as far as society went.

Example: Bathing/Swimming Swimsuits didnt even exist until the Victorian era and then only for the wealthier of us. Adults and children bathed in the nude in public places. This was common practice. Male children were routinely taught how to swim by nude swimming in public pools under the YMCA up until the mid 70s in some places in PA, OH, and MI. It shocks and dismays me that we (especially in America) have become such a screwed up bunch of prudes that are now mindlessly influenced by the nitwits in the fashion industry and Madison Avenue. Nude bathing was THE standard since the beginning of time. It is only in the last 130 years or so that we have taken normal and everyday and allowed it to be so perverted in the name of selling something that we up until recently didnt even know we needed..

Example: Blue Laws even here in the Bible Belt were widely ignored even during their heyday by restaurants, retailers, fuel sellers, etc.

Example: Divorce within the Jewish Community was as simple as a husband announcing that he was divorcing his wife. There was no reason for divorce needed. It was a simple statement.

While i agree with the list, i also have to say that there were many exceptions. Just about anything Man tries to control ends up having exceptions. It is the way of Man.

This is why i am not long term concerned with Sharia Law. The younger Muslims will eventually, (I didnt say soon) trend toward more western ways. Time is the great evener of all.

[cole256 17,084]

Now THIS is a thread that should've ended 5 pages ago....move on

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

aufaninga.......re. your post #60 above I agree with you. Thanks for expressing it that way. Your following posts are also good. We may not agree 100% but who does.

[aubfaninga 16]

aufaninga.......re. your post #60 above I agree with you. Thanks for expressing it that way. Your following posts are also good. We may not agree 100% but who does.

We agree about Auburn so we are family in my book.

P.s. Dont let ICHY or Homer see us posting like this. I might lose my "sewing circle" membership.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

aufaninga.......re. your post #60 above I agree with you. Thanks for expressing it that way. Your following posts are also good. We may not agree 100% but who does.

We agree about Auburn so we are family in my book.

P.s. Dont let ICHY or Homer see us posting like this. I might lose my "sewing circle" membership.

It's not your opinions that are the problem. It's your lousy needlepoint, you horrible knitting, your pathetic cross-stitch, and you inability to do something as simple as a hem. Iron on patches and a Beadazzler are hardly sewing. You sir,,,,, are a poor seamstress and that is why, if you didn't bring the refreshments, you wouldn't even be invited to the quilting parties.

[aubfaninga 16]

aufaninga.......re. your post #60 above I agree with you. Thanks for expressing it that way. Your following posts are also good. We may not agree 100% but who does.

We agree about Auburn so we are family in my book.

P.s. Dont let ICHY or Homer see us posting like this. I might lose my "sewing circle" membership.

It's not you opinions that are the problem. It's your lousy needlepoint, you horrible knitting, your pathetic cross-stitch, and you inability to do something as simple as a hem. Iron on patches and a Beadazzler are hardly sewing. You sir,,,,, are a poor seamstress and that is why, if you didn't bring the refreshments, you wouldn't even be invited to the quilting parties.

Ouch... I thought you were honest about loving the "I worship Obama" sweater that I made for you????

So what if I spelled it "warship". Bigben showed me how to make it look like an o again with his wine spilling technique and you said you loved it.

I am going to cry to my wife now. She never listens but she does not say such mean things either.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

auffaninga....I won't tell the sewing circle if you don't tell the posse. But I won't know what ICHY or homer say because they are both on my short Ignore List.

[aubfaninga 16]

aufaninga....I won't tell the sewing circle if you don't tell the posse :)/>

After what ICHY said I think I am going to make new clothes for tiggers Obama administration voodoo doll collection.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

What did he say?

[aubfaninga 16]

What did he say?

LOL...

Just ICHY being ichy and making me laugh

[icanthearyou 4,463]

aufaninga.......re. your post #60 above I agree with you. Thanks for expressing it that way. Your following posts are also good. We may not agree 100% but who does.

We agree about Auburn so we are family in my book.

P.s. Dont let ICHY or Homer see us posting like this. I might lose my "sewing circle" membership.

It's not you opinions that are the problem. It's your lousy needlepoint, you horrible knitting, your pathetic cross-stitch, and you inability to do something as simple as a hem. Iron on patches and a Beadazzler are hardly sewing. You sir,,,,, are a poor seamstress and that is why, if you didn't bring the refreshments, you wouldn't even be invited to the quilting parties.

Ouch... I thought you were honest about loving the "I worship Obama" sweater that I made for you????

So what if I spelled it "warship". Bigben showed me how to make it look like an o again with his wine spilling technique and you said you loved it.

I am going to cry to my wife now. She never listens but she does not say such mean things either.

I'm sorry. I guess I'm just more passionate about the sewing than the politics. You have to admit, that's a Wal-mart sweater you Beadazzled and, what's up with the three sixes on the back?

[icanthearyou 4,463]

aufaninga.......re. your post #60 above I agree with you. Thanks for expressing it that way. Your following posts are also good. We may not agree 100% but who does.

We agree about Auburn so we are family in my book.

P.s. Dont let ICHY or Homer see us posting like this. I might lose my "sewing circle" membership.

It's not you opinions that are the problem. It's your lousy needlepoint, you horrible knitting, your pathetic cross-stitch, and you inability to do something as simple as a hem. Iron on patches and a Beadazzler are hardly sewing. You sir,,,,, are a poor seamstress and that is why, if you didn't bring the refreshments, you wouldn't even be invited to the quilting parties.

Ouch... I thought you were honest about loving the "I worship Obama" sweater that I made for you????

So what if I spelled it "warship". Bigben showed me how to make it look like an o again with his wine spilling technique and you said you loved it.

I am going to cry to my wife now. She never listens but she does not say such mean things either.

I'm sorry. I guess I'm just more passionate about the sewing than the politics. You have to admit, that's a Wal-mart sweater you Beadazzled and, what's up with the three sixes on the back?

[aubfaninga 16]

aufaninga.......re. your post #60 above I agree with you. Thanks for expressing it that way. Your following posts are also good. We may not agree 100% but who does.

We agree about Auburn so we are family in my book.

P.s. Dont let ICHY or Homer see us posting like this. I might lose my "sewing circle" membership.

It's not you opinions that are the problem. It's your lousy needlepoint, you horrible knitting, your pathetic cross-stitch, and you inability to do something as simple as a hem. Iron on patches and a Beadazzler are hardly sewing. You sir,,,,, are a poor seamstress and that is why, if you didn't bring the refreshments, you wouldn't even be invited to the quilting parties.

Ouch... I thought you were honest about loving the "I worship Obama" sweater that I made for you????

So what if I spelled it "warship". Bigben showed me how to make it look like an o again with his wine spilling technique and you said you loved it.

I am going to cry to my wife now. She never listens but she does not say such mean things either.

I'm sorry. I guess I'm just more passionate about the sewing than the politics. You have to admit, that's a Wal-mart sweater you Beadazzled and, what's up with the three sixes on the back?

666??? It is supposed to be 616. I am truly a failure.

[quietfan 233]

I know you have no interest in discussing this in any detail but please allow me to comment on this and we can just move on.

I have every legal and moral right to take the Bible as literally as my heart desires. It's only when I take my literal interpretation into society and it does not agree with the governing laws of that society that I have went too far.

I completely understand that mankind changes almost everything it touches. BUT I still take the scriptures literal in describing GOD, Man, and our differences.

Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

I could give two cents what "man" changes. I am called to change not my GOD. Jesus addressed "Jews" of his day for their traditions that had strayed from scripture.

Matthew 15:3

Colossians 2:8

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."

I don't mind at all listening to your opinion and respect your right to it. You are correct that I have little interest in getting into extensive exchanges of Bible verse and Bible interpretation such as the exhaustive "Law and Grace" thread. But that's merely my predilection: I find it tedious, I find such differences of opinion unresolvable, and I personally find it a little too much like the obsessive legalism for which Jesus criticized the Pharisees. But that's just me, and for those who do enjoy such discussions: Have at it with my blessing.

I think your second paragraph matches my opinion best. Everyone is entitled to his/her personal faith and beliefs. I do not see the national same sex marriage debate as a challenge to any one particular set of religious beliefs, those are protected by the First Amendment. But when it comes to the legal status of SSM, the same 1st Amendment protects everyone from the imposition of one particular religious standard. The 14th Amendment, meanwhile, guarantees to all persons equal rights under the law...not all heterosexual persons, not all Christians, not all citizens, but all persons. I interpret that to include equal marital rights under the law regardless of gender identity or orientation.

Meanwhile, back to the actual opening post. I just find it irrational for anyone to suggest that SSM, or progressivism in general, is a slippery slope that leads to legalized bestiality or pedophilia. To me, that makes as much sense as saying legal recognition of heterosexual marriage is a slippery slope that leads to legalizing heterosexual rape.