serious question about talent.

[metafour 4,969]

Saban's "failure" in the NFL is hilariously over-exaggerated. That Dolphins team was 4-12 the season before he got there, and 1-15 the season after he left. Do his 9-7 and 6-10 seasons still look bad to you by comparison? A 15-17 (.469) career record after two seasons isn't even poor by NFL standards; there are head coaches that kick around the league for ~10+ seasons with .500 (or worse) career records. Bill Belichick was 36-44 (.450) in his 5 seasons with the Browns before he landed the Patriots job.

Saban left because the college game suited his desires and ambitions better, as he obviously craves control. He didn't leave the NFL because he "couldn't hack it". Its possible that he would have flamed out regardless dealing with NFL players/executives, but his 15-17 record after two seasons certainly doesn't confirm that.

[DAG 33,997]

Saban's "failure" in the NFL is hilariously over-exaggerated. That Dolphins team was 4-12 the season before he got there, and 1-15 the season after he left. Do his 9-7 and 6-10 seasons still look bad to you by comparison? A 15-17 (.469) career record after two seasons isn't even poor by NFL standards; there are head coaches that kick around the league for ~10+ seasons with .500 (or worse) career records. Bill Belichick was 36-44 (.450) in his 5 seasons with the Browns before he landed the Patriots job.

Saban left because the college game suited his desires and ambitions better, as he obviously craves control. He didn't leave the NFL because he "couldn't hack it". Its possible that he would have flamed out regardless dealing with NFL players/executives, but his 15-17 record after two seasons certainly doesn't confirm that.

People don't usually do well with stats on this site. Don't even hold your breathe.

[cole256 17,084]

Saban's "failure" in the NFL is hilariously over-exaggerated. That Dolphins team was 4-12 the season before he got there, and 1-15 the season after he left. Do his 9-7 and 6-10 seasons still look bad to you by comparison? A 15-17 (.469) career record after two seasons isn't even poor by NFL standards; there are head coaches that kick around the league for ~10+ seasons with .500 (or worse) career records. Bill Belichick was 36-44 (.450) in his 5 seasons with the Browns before he landed the Patriots job.

Saban left because the college game suited his desires and ambitions better, as he obviously craves control. He didn't leave the NFL because he "couldn't hack it". Its possible that he would have flamed out regardless dealing with NFL players/executives, but his 15-17 record after two seasons certainly doesn't confirm that.

Wouldn't be surprised if they said Belichick wasn't a leader either.....But besides that I don't know when winning became a prerequisite of being a leader

[McLoofus 35,182]

Saban's "failure" in the NFL is hilariously over-exaggerated. That Dolphins team was 4-12 the season before he got there, and 1-15 the season after he left. Do his 9-7 and 6-10 seasons still look bad to you by comparison? A 15-17 (.469) career record after two seasons isn't even poor by NFL standards; there are head coaches that kick around the league for ~10+ seasons with .500 (or worse) career records. Bill Belichick was 36-44 (.450) in his 5 seasons with the Browns before he landed the Patriots job.

Saban left because the college game suited his desires and ambitions better, as he obviously craves control. He didn't leave the NFL because he "couldn't hack it". Its possible that he would have flamed out regardless dealing with NFL players/executives, but his 15-17 record after two seasons certainly doesn't confirm that.

Wouldn't be surprised if they said Belichick wasn't a leader either.....But besides that I don't know when winning became a prerequisite of being a leader

Pete Carroll and Steve Spurrier- also not leaders.

[Barnacle 9,064]

Saban's "failure" in the NFL is hilariously over-exaggerated. That Dolphins team was 4-12 the season before he got there, and 1-15 the season after he left. Do his 9-7 and 6-10 seasons still look bad to you by comparison? A 15-17 (.469) career record after two seasons isn't even poor by NFL standards; there are head coaches that kick around the league for ~10+ seasons with .500 (or worse) career records. Bill Belichick was 36-44 (.450) in his 5 seasons with the Browns before he landed the Patriots job.

Saban left because the college game suited his desires and ambitions better, as he obviously craves control. He didn't leave the NFL because he "couldn't hack it". Its possible that he would have flamed out regardless dealing with NFL players/executives, but his 15-17 record after two seasons certainly doesn't confirm that.

Wouldn't be surprised if they said Belichick wasn't a leader either.....But besides that I don't know when winning became a prerequisite of being a leader

Pete Carroll and Steve Spurrier- also not leaders.

Well Pete Carroll just wasn't a leader until he was.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Saban's "failure" in the NFL is hilariously over-exaggerated. That Dolphins team was 4-12 the season before he got there, and 1-15 the season after he left. Do his 9-7 and 6-10 seasons still look bad to you by comparison? A 15-17 (.469) career record after two seasons isn't even poor by NFL standards; there are head coaches that kick around the league for ~10+ seasons with .500 (or worse) career records. Bill Belichick was 36-44 (.450) in his 5 seasons with the Browns before he landed the Patriots job.

Saban left because the college game suited his desires and ambitions better, as he obviously craves control. He didn't leave the NFL because he "couldn't hack it". Its possible that he would have flamed out regardless dealing with NFL players/executives, but his 15-17 record after two seasons certainly doesn't confirm that.

Wouldn't be surprised if they said Belichick wasn't a leader either.....But besides that I don't know when winning became a prerequisite of being a leader

Pete Carroll and Steve Spurrier- also not leaders.

Well Pete Carroll just wasn't a leader until he was.

Too shay.

[alexava 6,973]

Saban's "failure" in the NFL is hilariously over-exaggerated. That Dolphins team was 4-12 the season before he got there, and 1-15 the season after he left. Do his 9-7 and 6-10 seasons still look bad to you by comparison? A 15-17 (.469) career record after two seasons isn't even poor by NFL standards; there are head coaches that kick around the league for ~10+ seasons with .500 (or worse) career records. Bill Belichick was 36-44 (.450) in his 5 seasons with the Browns before he landed the Patriots job.

Saban left because the college game suited his desires and ambitions better, as he obviously craves control. He didn't leave the NFL because he "couldn't hack it". Its possible that he would have flamed out regardless dealing with NFL players/executives, but his 15-17 record after two seasons certainly doesn't confirm that.

he quit. Probably because he realized his strength was recruiting not coaching. He didn't stick it out he ran back to what he knew. I don't blame him at all.

[McLoofus 35,182]

bama also backed the Brinks truck up for him and handed him the keys to the castle. Let's not pretend he ran away from the big time and retreated back to his little patch of grass in the country. (Hmm, possibly a bad metaphor there...)

Another thing that nobody has brought up about saban's run at bama: every team in the SECW, except maybe one or two, has been ranked in the top 5 at one point or another in the last 5 years. He's been doing this in the toughest division in CFB history year after year. One of his very few losses was against a division rival who he met again in the BCSCG and proceeded to curb stomp. Another was against the eventual national champion in the SECCG in his 2nd year there. The only two years he didn't at least make it to the SECCG since his first year after inheriting Mike Shula's sanctioned mess in 2007 were because we beat them in the last game of the regular season and went instead.

There are a few teams that are in their zip code in terms of talent, but not in terms of sustained success. He is a very good coach.

[alexava 6,973]

bama also backed the Brinks truck up for him and handed him the keys to the castle. Let's not pretend he ran away from the big time and retreated back to his little patch of grass in the country. (Hmm, possibly a bad metaphor there...)

Another thing that nobody has brought up about saban's run at bama: every team in the SECW, except maybe one or two, has been ranked in the top 5 at one point or another in the last 5 years. He's been doing this in the toughest division in CFB history year after year. One of his very few losses was against a division rival who he met again in the BCSCG and proceeded to curb stomp. Another was against the eventual national champion in the SECCG in his 2nd year there. The only two years he didn't at least make it to the SECCG since his first year after inheriting Mike Shula's sanctioned mess in 2007 were because we beat them in the last game of the regular season and went instead.

There are a few teams that are in their zip code in terms of talent, but not in terms of sustained success. He is a very good coach.

the best in college.

[metafour 4,969]

bama also backed the Brinks truck up for him and handed him the keys to the castle. Let's not pretend he ran away from the big time and retreated back to his little patch of grass in the country. (Hmm, possibly a bad metaphor there...)

Exactly. He took a longer/bigger contract to do something that granted him more power/freedom to do what he likes to do. The story line about him "running scared" back to college after "failing" in the NFL is forced at best.

[keesler 5,924]

bama also backed the Brinks truck up for him and handed him the keys to the castle. Let's not pretend he ran away from the big time and retreated back to his little patch of grass in the country. (Hmm, possibly a bad metaphor there...)

Another thing that nobody has brought up about saban's run at bama: every team in the SECW, except maybe one or two, has been ranked in the top 5 at one point or another in the last 5 years. He's been doing this in the toughest division in CFB history year after year. One of his very few losses was against a division rival who he met again in the BCSCG and proceeded to curb stomp. Another was against the eventual national champion in the SECCG in his 2nd year there. The only two years he didn't at least make it to the SECCG since his first year after inheriting Mike Shula's sanctioned mess in 2007 were because we beat them in the last game of the regular season and went instead.

There are a few teams that are in their zip code in terms of talent, but not in terms of sustained success. He is a very good coach.

But he's not a leader and his employee's only work for him out of fear. And he's not a good coach he can only recruit and he's not a good developer of talent because his players don't pan out in the pro's and he only beats teams in the SEC when they are down and the cheating and the REC and the paid refs and the favorable schedules and the SEC office and Mark Emmertt in the NCAA.

That man has got it going on over there. I was raised to hate them, but I love good college football to damn much to not recognize what they've accomplished.

[Barnacle 9,064]

bama also backed the Brinks truck up for him and handed him the keys to the castle. Let's not pretend he ran away from the big time and retreated back to his little patch of grass in the country. (Hmm, possibly a bad metaphor there...)

Another thing that nobody has brought up about saban's run at bama: every team in the SECW, except maybe one or two, has been ranked in the top 5 at one point or another in the last 5 years. He's been doing this in the toughest division in CFB history year after year. One of his very few losses was against a division rival who he met again in the BCSCG and proceeded to curb stomp. Another was against the eventual national champion in the SECCG in his 2nd year there. The only two years he didn't at least make it to the SECCG since his first year after inheriting Mike Shula's sanctioned mess in 2007 were because we beat them in the last game of the regular season and went instead.

There are a few teams that are in their zip code in terms of talent, but not in terms of sustained success. He is a very good unrespected, scared, inferior game-day coaching excuse for a leader.

fify

this too:

not a good developer of talent

[AUIH1 1,515]

bama also backed the Brinks truck up for him and handed him the keys to the castle. Let's not pretend he ran away from the big time and retreated back to his little patch of grass in the country. (Hmm, possibly a bad metaphor there...)

Another thing that nobody has brought up about saban's run at bama: every team in the SECW, except maybe one or two, has been ranked in the top 5 at one point or another in the last 5 years. He's been doing this in the toughest division in CFB history year after year. One of his very few losses was against a division rival who he met again in the BCSCG and proceeded to curb stomp. Another was against the eventual national champion in the SECCG in his 2nd year there. The only two years he didn't at least make it to the SECCG since his first year after inheriting Mike Shula's sanctioned mess in 2007 were because we beat them in the last game of the regular season and went instead.

There are a few teams that are in their zip code in terms of talent, but not in terms of sustained success. He is a very good coach.

But he's not a leader and his employee's only work for him out of fear. And he's not a good coach he can only recruit and he's not a good developer of talent because his players don't pan out in the pro's and he only beats teams in the SEC when they are down and the cheating and the REC and the paid refs and the favorable schedules and the SEC office and Mark Emmertt in the NCAA.

That man has got it going on over there. I was raised to hate them, but I love good college football to damn much to not recognize what they've accomplished.

Saban is an outstanding college football coach in every aspect. His supposed "weakness", game day coaching, is still better than 95% of all college coaches out there. Were Saban our HC, his approval level on this and every AU message board would be around 99.9%.

wde

[keesler 5,924]

Ok guys, lets all go hose down with the pressure washer and some Clorox now. I'm feeling kinda dirty.

[AUIH1 1,515]

Ok guys, lets all go hose down with the pressure washer and some Clorox now. I'm feeling kinda dirty.

Feel dirty all you want. I just know that should Saban be AU's coach, the vast, vast majority of AU fans would be backing/supporting/defending him 100%. It is the typical "your coach is a vile, cheating low life human being but my coach is as pure as the driven snow" syndrome.

wde

[McLoofus 35,182]

Ok guys, lets all go hose down with the pressure washer and some Clorox now. I'm feeling kinda dirty.

Does washing the taste out of my mouth with a beer count? Either way... what you said.

[keesler 5,924]

Ok guys, lets all go hose down with the pressure washer and some Clorox now. I'm feeling kinda dirty.

Does washing the taste out of my mouth with a beer count? Either way... what you said.

I'm going to try nice glass of Maker's Mark, I don't think beer is strong enough for the filth I've spewed on here today.

[keesler 5,924]

Ok guys, lets all go hose down with the pressure washer and some Clorox now. I'm feeling kinda dirty.

Feel dirty all you want. I just know that should Saban be AU's coach, the vast, vast majority of AU fans would be backing/supporting/defending him 100%. It is the typical "your coach is a vile, cheating low life human being but my coach is as pure as the driven snow" syndrome.

wde

Well sure. Any fan base would feel the same if they'd been along for the kind of ride uat has experienced these last few years. I'm afraid I'd be an embarrassingly rotten Auburn fan - the uncontrollable, blatantly homerish type that would shame my family.

[Barnacle 9,064]

Ok guys, lets all go hose down with the pressure washer and some Clorox now. I'm feeling kinda dirty.

Feel dirty all you want. I just know that should Saban be AU's coach, the vast, vast majority of AU fans would be backing/supporting/defending him 100%. It is the typical "your coach is a vile, cheating low life human being but my coach is as pure as the driven snow" syndrome.

wde

Well sure. Any fan base would feel the same if they'd been along for the kind of ride uat has experienced these last few years. I'm afraid I'd be an embarrassingly rotten Auburn fan - the uncontrollable, blatantly homerish type that would shame my family.

[McLoofus 35,182]

^All that

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Is Gus a leader? There isn't a coach at ANY sport that's loved by everybody. But I disagree the premise is a leader is somebody people want to follow just because of you

Gus has the intangibles to be a great leader. That being said, I honestly can't say because Gus is such an introvert that you would actually have to be part of the program to really know how he's running it.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Saban's "failure" in the NFL is hilariously over-exaggerated. That Dolphins team was 4-12 the season before he got there, and 1-15 the season after he left. Do his 9-7 and 6-10 seasons still look bad to you by comparison? A 15-17 (.469) career record after two seasons isn't even poor by NFL standards; there are head coaches that kick around the league for ~10+ seasons with .500 (or worse) career records. Bill Belichick was 36-44 (.450) in his 5 seasons with the Browns before he landed the Patriots job.

Saban left because the college game suited his desires and ambitions better, as he obviously craves control. He didn't leave the NFL because he "couldn't hack it". Its possible that he would have flamed out regardless dealing with NFL players/executives, but his 15-17 record after two seasons certainly doesn't confirm that.

Wouldn't be surprised if they said Belichick wasn't a leader either.....But besides that I don't know when winning became a prerequisite of being a leader

Pete Carroll and Steve Spurrier- also not leaders.

Carroll and Spurrier were both great leaders. Their people LOVED them. Spurrier was a jerk to reporters, and pretty much everyone else outside of his program, but his players would go to hell and back for him and they really felt like he cared about them. Carroll was that an more. He went above and beyond to create a team that the players loved to be on... unfortunately for them his above and beyond left them on probation.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Saban's "failure" in the NFL is hilariously over-exaggerated. That Dolphins team was 4-12 the season before he got there, and 1-15 the season after he left. Do his 9-7 and 6-10 seasons still look bad to you by comparison? A 15-17 (.469) career record after two seasons isn't even poor by NFL standards; there are head coaches that kick around the league for ~10+ seasons with .500 (or worse) career records. Bill Belichick was 36-44 (.450) in his 5 seasons with the Browns before he landed the Patriots job.

Saban left because the college game suited his desires and ambitions better, as he obviously craves control. He didn't leave the NFL because he "couldn't hack it". Its possible that he would have flamed out regardless dealing with NFL players/executives, but his 15-17 record after two seasons certainly doesn't confirm that.

I could give a crap about the record. NFL players don't play to lose no matter who their coach is. Go back to anyone involved with that team and try to find one person who would say something positive about him. That's a failure of leadership.

Look... you can all believe whatever you want but there have been deep analytical/statistical studies about what makes a truly great leader and what they found was that there were two requirements for a great leader. The internal component is something that every football coach has, direction, confidence (all though, this is supposed to be without arrogance, and most coaches fail there), and are comfortable with who they are. The external component is the point of failure. Great leaders all put others first. The are open, respectful, and generous with their people. This is where Saban fails in spades. Everything he does is about him and he does absolutely nothing to hide that fact. If what people say about Gus not listening to his staff is true, then that is Gus's point of failure, too, and if he doesn't fix it, he won't ever be a great leader either, even though he very outwardly puts his players first.

There... done ranting. You have the facts. Do with them as you may.

[johnnyAU 3,634]

LOL. The Dolphins were also a 9-11 win team for several years before Saban arrived. They had one bad year, with two different head coaches the year before Nick. Nick went .500, and was trending downward before he bolted. They had another bad year with yet another coaching change (Cam Cameron), then subsequently won their division.

[Barnacle 9,064]

Saban's "failure" in the NFL is hilariously over-exaggerated. That Dolphins team was 4-12 the season before he got there, and 1-15 the season after he left. Do his 9-7 and 6-10 seasons still look bad to you by comparison? A 15-17 (.469) career record after two seasons isn't even poor by NFL standards; there are head coaches that kick around the league for ~10+ seasons with .500 (or worse) career records. Bill Belichick was 36-44 (.450) in his 5 seasons with the Browns before he landed the Patriots job.

Saban left because the college game suited his desires and ambitions better, as he obviously craves control. He didn't leave the NFL because he "couldn't hack it". Its possible that he would have flamed out regardless dealing with NFL players/executives, but his 15-17 record after two seasons certainly doesn't confirm that.

I could give a crap about the record. NFL players don't play to lose no matter who their coach is. Go back to anyone involved with that team and try to find one person who would say something positive about him. That's a failure of leadership.

Look... you can all believe whatever you want but there have been deep analytical/statistical studies about what makes a truly great leader and what they found was that there were two requirements for a great leader. The internal component is something that every football coach has, direction, confidence (all though, this is supposed to be without arrogance, and most coaches fail there), and are comfortable with who they are. The external component is the point of failure. Great leaders all put others first. The are open, respectful, and generous with their people. This is where Saban fails in spades. Everything he does is about him and he does absolutely nothing to hide that fact. If what people say about Gus not listening to his staff is true, then that is Gus's point of failure, too, and if he doesn't fix it, he won't ever be a great leader either, even though he very outwardly puts his players first.

There... done ranting. You have the facts. Do with them as you may.

Lion, I appreciate your commitment to your position. I think you are misapplying some facts to support your conclusion. The problem is that most of the studies on leadership you are talking about describe attributes that great leaders have in common, but that aren't requisite to being an effective leader. In other words, they'll study 12 CEOs who have been successful in building good companies into great companies (e.g. Good to Great by James Collins). From there they look at what these different CEOs have in common. You aren't wrong in saying that great leaders are generally motivated to do what is best for the team, or show humility. However, those aren't qualities that in it of themselves make a person a great leader. Those are just qualities that great leaders have in common. After all, what these studies do is start with leaders who have been effective in their field or practice. The goal is to figure out WHY they are effective. Then people like us can help become and identify better leaders. They conclude that characteristics like humility are common among effective leaders, and if you want to be a good leader you should probably be humble (among MANY other things). What they don't conclude is that in order to be a good leader you MUST be humble. They don't say "You aren't humble, therefore you are not effective leader."

Would Nick Saban be more effective if he showed more humility? The studies would suggest probably, yes. However, we are talking about one of the most effective leaders to ever coach college football. None of his characteristics, or lack thereof change that simple fact.