Sean White dismissed

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, TitanTiger said:

I see where you’re coming Fromm now. I guess I was sort of addressing blame. Just saying we lost 4 qbs seemed to imply that with no deeper examination, it was all the coach’s fault. But we had two who were misevaluated. The other was a very good qb that made dumb life choices and another that was unlucky with injuries. That doesn’t seem alarming to me in terms of coaching just sucky timing. 

Amd that’s not to be taken as a general blanket acceptance of Gus’s qb decisions. 

Agreed on White and Queen. I don't put JJ on Gus, either. 

Just JFIII and Woody in the same class... yikes. 

[Barnacle 9,064]

7 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Okay. The "totally on them" bit at the end read to me as though you were addressing the issue of blame. 

That said, I still don't see how it's misleading. We went into the offseason with 6 scholarship QBs and now we have 2. Unless you count the guy who might be moving over from WR. 

If we're lucky, we'll have 4 guys going into next offseason- Stidham, hopefully a sophomore instead of a RS FR in Willis, and 2 true freshmen. And Ryan Davis. Unless we get Gatewood, Fields and Torrance Gibson. Then we'd have 5. And Ryan Davis.

I'm comfortable with a 3-Deep that includes Stidham, Willis and one of the freshmen. 

This isn't to mention RB depth. I suspect that he will, but we very badly need Pettway to play his senior year. 

[LKEEL75 2,566]

3 minutes ago, DAG said:

It's one thing to transfer because you got beat out by a better guy. Its another thing to transfer because you failed miserably . A lot of those Bama guys left or didn't make it because the guy in front of them was flat out better and it showed on the field . 

Not necessarily.  Look at the last couple of transfers:

Cooper Bateman - transferred

Parker McCloud - transferred

David Cornwell - transferred

Blake Barnett - transferred

Of these, how many are starting on their new respective teams?  I know Bateman & Barnett are not.  I don't think Cornwell is.  Not sure about the other kid.  So again, what a miserable judge at talent to have so many leave and can't even start at other schools either.  Or maybe they just didn't live up to the hype.  Or maybe they just didn't put in the work required to win the job at the college level.  

 

[DAG 33,997]

28 minutes ago, lkeel75 said:

Not necessarily.  Look at the last couple of transfers:

Cooper Bateman - transferred

Parker McCloud - transferred

David Cornwell - transferred

Blake Barnett - transferred

Of these, how many are starting on their new respective teams?  I know Bateman & Barnett are not.  I don't think Cornwell is.  Not sure about the other kid.  So again, what a miserable judge at talent to have so many leave and can't even start at other schools either.  Or maybe they just didn't live up to the hype.  Or maybe they just didn't put in the work required to win the job at the college level.  

 

Yes necessarily. Look at the guys who started over them which were my point. Every guy who has started for Alabama has been productive. These guys who transferred from Bama were NOT as good as those guys. In fact, Alabama has had great starting QB production since 2009. Now compare that to our starting QBs. The problem is we are missing on our STARTERS. Huge difference.

Or are you arguing that these guys were better than the Alabama counterparts?

[LKEEL75 2,566]

25 minutes ago, DAG said:

Yes necessarily. Look at the guys who started over them which were my point. Every guy who has started for Alabama has been productive. These guys who transferred from Bama were NOT as good as those guys. In fact, Alabama has had great starting QB production since 2009. Now compare that to our starting QBs. The problem is we are missing on our STARTERS. Huge difference.

Or are you arguing that these guys were better than the Alabama counterpoints?

No.  My point is that they are highly rated QBs that came in with all the hype of being highly rated.  Just like players for AU.  They then got beat out by better players or at least players willing to put the work in to be better.  Just like players who transferred from AU.  And now these same players are STILL not starting for their new college.  Not only could they not get the starting job at UAt but these great high school players couldn't get the job at another school either.  Therefore they basically failed miserably.

So the argument that AU coaching staff is the problem doesn't hold water because many highly rated kids are misses when it comes to starting in college.  Some don't want to put the work in to get better.  Some want to go out and take on the college kid life.  Some just were big fish in small ponds.  No matter the case, it happens at every school.  It also happens at the next level.  Look at players who are drafted and blown up to be one of the greatest ever and can't handle the NFL.

[DAG 33,997]

18 minutes ago, lkeel75 said:

No.  My point is that they are highly rated QBs that came in with all the hype of being highly rated.  Just like players for AU.  They then got beat out by better players or at least players willing to put the work in to be better.  Just like players who transferred from AU.  And now these same players are STILL not starting for their new college.  Not only could they not get the starting job at UAt but these great high school players couldn't get the job at another school either.  Therefore they basically failed miserably.

So the argument that AU coaching staff is the problem doesn't hold water because many highly rated kids are misses when it comes to starting in college.  Some don't want to put the work in to get better.  Some want to go out and take on the college kid life.  Some just were big fish in small ponds.  No matter the case, it happens at every school.  It also happens at the next level.  Look at players who are drafted and blown up to be one of the greatest ever and can't handle the NFL.

But AU coaches have had seasons when they didn't have 1 productive QB. Did they all come in overhyped? You can't forget that variable. You can have your point, but what you are saying and what I am saying is completely different in nature. I am not saying you aren't going to miss on QBs, but to not have a single productive QB in multiple seasons is unacceptable. To say Alabama is miscalculating at QBs in comparison to AU is not true. I can't speak on what those other guys are doing post Bama. What I can say is every Alabama starter since 2009 has been very productive, so at the very least attrition has been caused due to the fact of better on-field production. That is the truth. Those guys who left were not better than the starters.  You just sat there and said that is not necessarily true when I can show you stats that prove otherwise. Whether they were better at their next destination is null and void, as it doesn't diminish my original point that they transferred because they could not beat out the named starter at Bama and rightfully so.

[I_M4_AU 7,874]

@TitanTiger, you are comparing attrition rates between Auburn and Alabama, care to compare results?  This is a results based business, if you can not correctly evaluate QB talent and develop that talent, you lose.  Gus needs to do better at both.  This year's recruiting results will be interesting.

[WeagleAU 594]

2 hours ago, keesler said:

Of course not!  I just hope like hell that the whoever else above the head coach didn't add any fuel to the fire.

Kinda like Gus receiving directives from higher up's in the wake of the CU game that he had to can his clip board, completely step away from the offense and the decision to move Lindsey physically as far away from Gus as possible up to the booth.

Who the hell's pulling Gus' strings, and is that individual(s) qualified, educated, or experienced enough to be able to make those type of detailed decisions relative to D1 level coaching?

 

 

I’ve thought about this as well.  Not that I want to dive into some conspiracy theories, but I got a couple of theories about this issue myself.  Sometimes I wonder if the “higher-ups” that make the final decisions want Auburn to succeed?  It’s a crazy thought, but we’ve seen some crazy and irrational decisions made on the plains recently.  It makes no sense why someone with no coaching experience would be making coaching decisions.

[LKEEL75 2,566]

6 minutes ago, DAG said:

But AU coaches have had seasons when they didn't have 1 productive QB. You can't forget that variable. You can have your point, but what you are saying and what I am saying is completely different in nature. I am not saying you aren't going to miss on QBs, but to not have a single productive QB in multiple seasons is unacceptable. To say Alabama is miscalculating at QBs in comparison to AU is not true. I can't speak on what those other guys are doing post Bama. What I can say is every Alabama starter since 2009 has been very productive, so at the very least attrition has been caused due to the fact of better on-field production. Can you say that about AU?

We will have to agree to disagree.  I can beat the dead horse of SW's production (when not injured) and how he beat out those who were rated higher (ie: WB\JJ).  I can point out that SW beat out JF3 because he was a better player.  I understand that we have lost some QBs in the last few months and that is horrible considering just a few months ago we were talking about our great depth at QB.  It wasn't that long ago I was talking about how great this depth was (

) but I was worried about it as well.  I also understand this is a results based business as well as a "what have you done for me lately" business.  So if we do turn things around and end up at IB with 1 or 2 loses, then do these coaches get some praise or will they always be the root of all problems?

[wdefromtx 3,159]

1 minute ago, WeagleAU said:

I’ve thought about this as well.  Not that I want to dive into some conspiracy theories, but I got a couple of theories about this issue myself.  Sometimes I wonder if the “higher-ups” that make the final decisions want Auburn to succeed?  It’s a crazy thought, but we’ve seen some crazy and irrational decisions made on the plains recently.  It makes no sense why someone with no coaching experience would be making coaching decisions.

Here is the issue in my opinion and it is like this at a lot of schools....the higher ups...the big money guys donating to the school and football program have egos bigger than their bank accounts. Each one of them thinks their money should let them call the shots. Which in a way it does because if they make the donor mad then he may decide not to make that contribution.

 

In a sense some of the higher ups would rather have Auburn fail because the HC was not their choice and wants to prove everybody wrong. Texas has been a perfect example of this.

[McLoofus 35,182]

29 minutes ago, lkeel75 said:

Not necessarily.  Look at the last couple of transfers:

Cooper Bateman - transferred

Parker McCloud - transferred

David Cornwell - transferred

Blake Barnett - transferred

Of these, how many are starting on their new respective teams?  I know Bateman & Barnett are not.  I don't think Cornwell is.  Not sure about the other kid.  So again, what a miserable judge at talent to have so many leave and can't even start at other schools either.  Or maybe they just didn't live up to the hype.  Or maybe they just didn't put in the work required to win the job at the college level.  

Cooper Bateman was at bama 4 years and transferred to Utah. He may or may not play football there. 

Parker McCleod is a walk-on at UGA. He is from Georgia.

David Cornwell is the starter at Nevada.

Barnett is the backup at ASU.

 

Tyler Queen is at West Georgia.

Woody Barrett is at Copiah-Lincoln.

JFIII is at FAU. 

Sean White's destination remains to be seen.

[keesler 5,926]

6 minutes ago, WeagleAU said:

I’ve thought about this as well.  Not that I want to dive into some conspiracy theories, but I got a couple of theories about this issue myself.  Sometimes I wonder if the “higher-ups” that make the final decisions want Auburn to succeed?  It’s a crazy thought, but we’ve seen some crazy and irrational decisions made on the plains recently.  It makes no sense why someone with no coaching experience would be making coaching decisions.

Agreed.

Even if former AU players (Bo/Mac/Charles) or former AU coaches/AD (Dye), or former BOT's (Lowder) or even big $$ Donors are giving advice or playing a part in laying directives to the HC,  what qualifications do they have to tell him how to do his job?

I mean if it comes down to the point where the Administration feels the need to send people to give the HC advice, offer input on the offense, or talk some sense into your HC and then carry it a step further and giving him direct marching orders to step away from his offense altogether then isn't it time to just cut him loose?  

To be honest, I'd feel insulted and that ex-players or ex-coaches were sent to analyze and critique my coaching.  He's the damn coach, let him do his job or can his ass. 

 

[DAG 33,997]

7 minutes ago, lkeel75 said:

We will have to agree to disagree.  I can beat the dead horse of SW's production (when not injured) and how he beat out those who were rated higher (ie: WB\JJ).  I can point out that SW beat out JF3 because he was a better player.  I understand that we have lost some QBs in the last few months and that is horrible considering just a few months ago we were talking about our great depth at QB.  It wasn't that long ago I was talking about how great this depth was (

) but I was worried about it as well.  I also understand this is a results based business as well as a "what have you done for me lately" business.  So if we do turn things around and end up at IB with 1 or 2 loses, then do these coaches get some praise or will they always be the root of all problems?

He did beat those guys out. I won't disagree with that, but you also have to put an asterisk to his name when you mention him. When he was healthy..and guess what? He wasn't available for a lot of our quality opponents. I think 1 full game against a quality opponent and that was LSU. Again, Alabama has had several years of productivity that has been shown on the field, all season. You can choose to ignore that fact if you want, but it's the truth.

[keesler 5,926]

These comparisons between anything football related to Auburn and Alabama are an exercise in futility.  Any comparison relative to the product both teams put of the field, or the consistency, or the quality of the coaching staffs, or the development, or player evaluation, roster management, fundamental training, etc. just makes no sense.

If both teams or HC's were in any way similar in program development, stability, experience or overall production I could understand trying to make comparisons.  But there just aren't enough similarities to make an honest assessment.

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 hour ago, Barnacle said:

I'm comfortable with a 3-Deep that includes Stidham, Willis and one of the freshmen. 

This isn't to mention RB depth. I suspect that he will, but we very badly need Pettway to play his senior year. 

If

-Stidham gets better
-Willis is shown *this season* to be remotely as good as we hope
-and we have another body behind that 3 deep

then I will be too, I suppose. 

I'm less concerned about RB depth than the way our coach has been handling it. 

[War Knight 514]

2 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

One could wonder, when the PTB are searching for a new coach, do they like an up and comer so they can "mold" them into the coach they want?  It seems that has been the case at Auburn for a while now.  If this is the case, we may be looking for another up and comer in the near future.  Offensively, it seems, we have lost our way.

Someone hit the nail on the head!

[TitanTiger 20,499]

56 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

@TitanTiger, you are comparing attrition rates between Auburn and Alabama, care to compare results?  This is a results based business, if you can not correctly evaluate QB talent and develop that talent, you lose.  Gus needs to do better at both.  This year's recruiting results will be interesting.

I'm comparing attrition rates because it was stated or implied that Auburn's attrition rates were unusually high and thus was a coaching failure.  That's it.

If someone wants to have a discussion on results, that's fine, but it's a separate argument and discussion altogether.  The contention that our attrition is out of line with other schools we compete with doesn't appear to hold water however.

[I_M4_AU 7,874]

2 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I'm comparing attrition rates because it was stated or implied that Auburn's attrition rates were unusually high and thus was a coaching failure.  That's it.

If someone wants to have a discussion on results, that's fine, but it's a separate argument and discussion altogether.  The contention that our attrition is out of line with other schools we compete with doesn't appear to hold water however.

I understand where you were going as the thread guided you to post the comparisons.  My point is that comparing attrition without comparing results is not seeing the whole picture.  Our attrition is probably not out of line, but our evaluating and development of our QBs are lacking.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Just now, I_M4_AU said:

I understand where you were going as the thread guided you to post the comparisons.  My point is that comparing attrition without comparing results is not seeing the whole picture.  Our attrition is probably not out of line, but our evaluating and development of our QBs are lacking.

I don't disagree there.

I will say, I think Gatewood has great potential to be a star in this offense and I see a lot of upside to Malik Willis.  And everything I've seen of Justin Fields, if we can snag him, is also good.  

[I_M4_AU 7,874]

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I don't disagree there.

I will say, I think Gatewood has great potential to be a star in this offense and I see a lot of upside to Malik Willis.  And everything I've seen of Justin Fields, if we can snag him, is also good.  

Hoping for the best for the future.

[Tiger 8,829]

The meddling seems to only pop up (at least on the board) when we are having poor seasons. So is the meddling occurring from the people above the head coach as a last ditch effort to avoid having to fire a guy? 

Is JJ's experience with "people above the coach" in reference to the fact that JJ didn't even get a single snap after the Clemson game last season?  Was that how Gus painted it to JJ, true or not? Just throwing ideas out here

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, Tiger said:

The meddling seems to only pop up (at least on the board) when we are having poor seasons. So is the meddling occurring from the people above the head coach as a last ditch effort to avoid having to fire a guy? 

My opinion:
-No idea what went on during Chizik's tenure, but I get the feeling that the meddling probably got pretty intense during or after 2011.
-When Gus was hired, they probably gave him the reigns on the offense and decided that they would "help out" with the defense.
-By mid-2014, CEJ had had enough and pretty much quit midseason.
-Everyone agreed that Muschamp would have complete control of the defense, because Muschamp
-Right as he was turning things around on D, the offense took a nosedive. Unforeseeable roster issues had a lot to do with it. 
-In 2016, things didn't start off well. At all. The PTB stepped in and tried to help Gus find Jesus. 
-Things went very well until Sean and KP got hurt.
-Gus stepped back in, whether of his own volition or in response to Rhett's cry for help, or both.
-The PTB let Gus know that it was time for a new OC, and that he should let that man do his job.
-It became obvious at the start to this season that Gus only delivered on the first half of the above suggestion.
-Gus was told in no uncertain terms that he is to let Chip run the offense.
-Mercer. Mercy.
-Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee let's see where this goes next

[Tiger 8,829]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

My opinion:
-No idea what went on during Chizik's tenure, but I get the feeling that the meddling probably got pretty intense during or after 2011.
-When Gus was hired, they probably gave him the reigns on the offense and decided that they would "help out" with the defense.
-By mid-2014, CEJ had had enough and pretty much quit midseason.
-Everyone agreed that Muschamp would have complete control of the defense, because Muschamp
-Right as he was turning things around on D, the offense took a nosedive. Unforeseeable roster issues had a lot to do with it. 
-In 2016, things didn't start off well. At all. The PTB stepped in and tried to help Gus find Jesus. 
-Things went very well until Sean and KP got hurt.
-Gus stepped back in, whether of his own volition or in response to Rhett's cry for help, or both.
-The PTB let Gus know that it was time for a new OC, and that he should let that man do his job.
-It became obvious at the start to this season that Gus only delivered on the first half of the above suggestion.
-Gus was told in no uncertain terms that he is to let Chip run the offense.
-Mercer. Mercy.
-Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee let's see where this goes next

None of this seems like it could be out of the realm of possibility. I think this a pretty logical assumption. I am not a fan of reality TV at all but I would be glued to the screen if there was a Hard Knocks: Auburn because of how damn dramatic the workings of our football program are.

[Barnacle 9,064]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

If

-Stidham gets better
-Willis is shown *this season* to be remotely as good as we hope
-and we have another body behind that 3 deep

then I will be too, I suppose. 

I'm less concerned about RB depth than the way our coach has been handling it. 

Stidham will get better. I'm not necessarily that concerned about where he is right now, either. Agreed about Willis - I guess I'm going off of the presumption that he's remotely good as we hope. But, if Gus has taught us anything, it's to presume absolutely nothing. 

As for RB, if Pettway were to leave (not saying he will), then we've got: 

1) KJ - A genuine all-purpose SEC back when healthy, but one who happens to be injury prone.

2) Kam Martin/Malik Miller/Devan Barrett - two of whom weigh less than 200 pounds, and all of whom our (current) coaches won't give meaningful snaps to except in the absence of Pettway AND Johnson. 

3) ...Asa Martin? 

If Martin remains committed and signs with Auburn, the situation doesn't look as bad, but in either scenario you are wholly dependent on someone not named Kerryon Johnson being worthy of the RB1 spot. Unfortunately, no one out of the committee of running backs on our current roster have accomplished that, nor have any of them shown the talent and or size to handle such a role. Don't get me wrong, KM and Barrett appear to have the requisite skill set, but they don't have the size - in my opinion, of course. At 6'0", Barrett has the frame to put on some considerable weight in the off-season. Martin seems to me the most likely out of the group, but he'll be a true freshman and we're still a long way off from signing day. 

Edit: I'm not saying that KJ wouldn't be the de facto RB1 in the above scenario, he would be. I'm saying that we need someone who can also fill that role when necessary. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

6 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

Stidham will get better. I'm not necessarily that concerned about where he is right now, either. Agreed about Willis - I guess I'm going off of the presumption that he's remotely good as we hope. But, if Gus has taught us anything, it's to presume absolutely nothing. 

As for RB, if Pettway were to leave (not saying he will), then we've got: 

1) KJ - A genuine all-purpose SEC back when healthy, but one who happens to be injury prone.

2) Kam Martin/Malik Miller/Devan Barrett - two of whom weigh less than 200 pounds, and all of whom our (current) coaches won't give meaningful snaps to except in the absence of Pettway AND Johnson. 

3) ...Asa Martin? 

If Martin remains committed and signs with Auburn, the situation doesn't look as bad, but in either scenario you are wholly dependent on someone not named Kerryon Johnson being worthy of the RB1 spot. Unfortunately, no one out of the committee of running backs on our current roster have accomplished that, nor have any of them shown the talent and or size to handle such a role. Don't get me wrong, KM and Barrett appear to have the requisite skill set, but they don't have the size - in my opinion, of course. At 6'0", Barrett has the frame to put on some considerable weight in the off-season. Martin seems to me the most likely out of the group, but he'll be a true freshman and we're still a long way off from signing day. 

Edit: I'm not saying that KJ wouldn't be the de facto RB1 in the above scenario, he would be. I'm saying that we need someone who can also fill that role when necessary. 

You left out Shaun Shivers. Some are saying that he's the best football player at any position in South Florida. 

If we're talking about size, then we've established before that we don't share that preoccupation. We'll just have to continue to agree to disagree on that part. 

As for what Miller and K. Martin have shown, they've actually both shown to be pretty effective, other than Martin putting the ball on the carpet a little too much. Miller was a meaningful contributor until he got hurt last season. Martin has made plays every time he's been allowed to touch the ball. Barrett... who knows. He's another guy who looked great in practice but Gus has mystifyingly refused to play him in games.

And that's what it comes back to for me. Pettway got every carry against *Mercer*? With an injured foot??? That's when fans tend to get angry and call their coach crazy. At this point, I refuse to believe that Gus is consistently making good decisions about who is on the field, or really about anything where the offense is concerned. His judgment and, quite honestly, sanity are wide open for discussion. His is definitely not the final word on how good our RBs are. 

We don't have bama's stable of backs, that's for sure. But we've got 5 guys on campus... okay, 3 and 2 injury-prone guys (funny that nobody's saying that Pettway isn't an every-down back)... who can play. We've got 2 more studs coming in unless something happens with their recruitment, in which case we probably have bigger problems.

Final point: Even in our worst year, we can get a Peyton Barber to 1,000 yards. Without a QB, though, we're not winning many important games.