Billy Graham has passed away

[AUDub 11,184]

May he rest in peace. 

[around4ever 4,139]

He and the message he delivered will be missed.  Rest in Peace Billy Graham. 

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Incredible man and an incalculable blessing to the world.  A titan of integrity, humility and honor in an age that knows little of such things.

I hope that in his passing that his son realizes the incredible legacy he has been left to carry on and gravitates more toward the manner in which his father did it.

[homersapien 11,452]

Interesting perspective on Billy and Franklin.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/02/24/billy-graham-evangelical-decline-franklin-graham-217077

Billy Graham Built a Movement. Now His Son Is Dismantling It.

If you want to understand the evangelical decline in the United States, look no further than the transition from Billy to Franklin Graham.

By STEPHEN PROTHERO, February 24, 2018

[Grumps 3,704]

4 hours ago, homersapien said:

Interesting perspective on Billy and Franklin.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/02/24/billy-graham-evangelical-decline-franklin-graham-217077

Billy Graham Built a Movement. Now His Son Is Dismantling It.

If you want to understand the evangelical decline in the United States, look no further than the transition from Billy to Franklin Graham.

By STEPHEN PROTHERO, February 24, 2018

I didn't read the article, but if it says that Franklin Graham is too political then I would agree. I don't think that he is capable of dismantling what his father did, but his legacy will certainly not be in the same realm as his father's.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

1 hour ago, Grumps said:

I didn't read the article, but if it says that Franklin Graham is too political then I would agree. I don't think that he is capable of dismantling what his father did, but his legacy will certainly not be in the same realm as his father's.

Franklin isn't trying to be his Father. No one can. Franklin heads Samaritans Purse which is helping people around the world. The Pope is a great man but is a lot more political than Franklin.

[AUDub 11,184]

18 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

Franklin isn't trying to be his Father. No one can. Franklin heads Samaritans Purse which is helping people around the world. The Pope is a great man but is a lot more political than Franklin.

Huh. 

[TitanTiger 20,511]

On 2/24/2018 at 10:26 PM, Proud Tiger said:

Franklin isn't trying to be his Father. No one can.

There are examples his father set that he absolutely can follow in.  They were not things that were unique such that only Billy could do them.  Franklin chooses not to.

 

On 2/24/2018 at 10:26 PM, Proud Tiger said:

Franklin heads Samaritans Purse which is helping people around the world. The Pope is a great man but is a lot more political than Franklin.

No one has said anything negative about his work with Samaritan's Purse.  But I will promise you, his partisan political stances are hurting Samaritan's Purse far more than it helps it.

 

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

35 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

There are examples his father set that he absolutely can follow in.  They were not things that were unique such that only Billy could do them.  Franklin chooses not to.

 

 

What is wrong with Franklin's choice to do so? Is there something that says he has to try to be Billy Graham, Jr.?

[TitanTiger 20,511]

1 minute ago, Proud Tiger said:

What is wrong with Franklin's choice to do so? Is there something that says he has to try to be Billy Graham, Jr.?

I already said what was wrong with it...it puts up unnecessary hinderances to much more important efforts.  It's a polarizing thing to do and you end up turning many of very people off that you would like to reach.  Not only because they, out of admiration for your father's legacy and the work you're doing contribute to it, but in terms of the Gospel.

I didn't say he had to be a clone of his father.  But one can learn from and follow the example and the wisdom that their father passes down to them without losing themselves in the process.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

5 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I already said what was wrong with it...it puts up unnecessary hinderances to much more important efforts.  It's a polarizing thing to do and you end up turning many of very people off that you would like to reach.  Not only because they, out of admiration for your father's legacy and the work you're doing contribute to it, but in terms of the Gospel.

I didn't say he had to be a clone of his father.  But one can learn from and follow the example and the wisdom that their father passes down to them without losing themselves in the process.

I disagree but I'm sure you can rebuke even that. But one FACT.......I gave $12,000 to Samaritans Purse in 2017, more than I ever have. You are entitled to your opinion but you have no facts to back it up.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

And how many others who might have otherwise joined you chose not to because they were turned off by the hyper partisan rhetoric coming from Franklin?   How many more children could Samaritans Purse have reached without unnecessarily turning off potential donors?  Or do you have evidence that more than enough people followed your lead and up their contributions considerably to offset any potential losses in donations?

No I don’t have concrete data to offer you but I know the conversations that I have had and that I have overheard. There is a reason his father was almost universally admired and loved and he is not. For what he wants to do common sense tells you he’s going about it the wrong way. 

The idea in this sort of thing is to try and build bridges not erect more walls.  Strive to find common ground around helping others and don’t create unnecessary barriers.  How hard is that really? 

[TitanTiger 20,511]

And just so we’re clear, I’m not saying that you could never make a comment on any political issue whatsoever. Sometimes such things are completely unavoidable if you’re going to be true to the Gospel. How can you not talk about how we treat the poor or the unborn for instance?

But when you veer over into endorsement and defense of political parties and candidates you are on shaky ground at best. 

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

4 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

And how many others who might have otherwise joined you chose not to because they were turned off by the hyper partisan rhetoric coming from Franklin?   How many more children could Samaritans Purse have reached without unnecessarily turning off potential donors?  Or do you have evidence that more than enough people followed your lead and up their contributions considerably to offset any potential losses in donations?

 

I don't know and neither do you. Time will tell. I certainly hope you are wrong.

P.S---- I didn't up my contribution for any reason remotely related to politics. I was very blessed financially in 2017 and could give more.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

11 hours ago, Proud Tiger said:

I don't know and neither do you. Time will tell. I certainly hope you are wrong.

You're right.  I can't quantify it for you.  But I regularly speak with enough people who don't call themselves Christians, and read many more responses online, to tell that the near universal respect his father garnered is not something Franklin has managed to also do.  And it's not because Billy was perfect, or uniquely charming.  It's because of choices each of them made.  And make no mistake, Billy was not so admired because he was scared to speak the truth.  He just understood the difference, and the priority deserved, between Truth with a capital "T" and other "truths."  He made the Capital-T Truth the thing that all other truths gave way to.  He understood that certain things can be so divisive that once you put that thing out there, many of the very people you need to read most are essentially tuning you out on the most important matters. 

If Franklin believes that his purpose is to effect change through the political system, then he needs to follow through on that and be a politician, or serve in some appointed office.  But if he believes his purpose is to be an evangelist and to serve as many disadvantaged, unreached and disaster-stricken people in the world as possible with material assistance and spiritual guidance and hope, then I believe he needs to reconsider his decisions to abandon his father's prudent handling of matters political.  I believe he is squandering opportunities and potential on the most important matters to be so vocal on far less important ones.  

We are more polarized and atomized as a country than at any point in my lifetime.  We have no shortage of voices out there encouraging this state of affairs to continue.  Franklin doesn't need to add to that chorus.  Not if he truly sees the work of efforts like Samaritan's Purse as the most important thing.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

You're right.  I can't quantify it for you.  But I regularly speak with enough people who don't call themselves Christians, and read many more responses online, to tell that the near universal respect his father garnered is not something Franklin has managed to also do.  And it's not because Billy was perfect, or uniquely charming.  It's because of choices each of them made.  And make no mistake, Billy was not so admired because he was scared to speak the truth.  He just understood the difference, and the priority deserved, between Truth with a capital "T" and other "truths."  He made the Capital-T Truth the thing that all other truths gave way to.  He understood that certain things can be so divisive that once you put that thing out there, many of the very people you need to read most are essentially tuning you out on the most important matters. 

If Franklin believes that his purpose is to effect change through the political system, then he needs to follow through on that and be a politician, or serve in some appointed office.  But if he believes his purpose is to be an evangelist and to serve as many disadvantaged, unreached and disaster-stricken people in the world as possible with material assistance and spiritual guidance and hope, then I believe he needs to reconsider his decisions to abandon his father's prudent handling of matters political.  I believe he is squandering opportunities and potential on the most important matters to be so vocal on far less important ones.  

We are more polarized and atomized as a country than at any point in my lifetime.  We have no shortage of voices out there encouraging this state of affairs to continue.  Franklin doesn't need to add to that chorus.  Not if he truly sees the work of efforts like Samaritan's Purse as the most important thing.

Do you think Jesus avoided the "politics" of his day?

[TitanTiger 20,511]

6 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

Do you think Jesus avoided the "politics" of his day?

I'm not sure I see the similarities between the political climate in Rome then and now, particularly in terms of polarizing political parties.  But generally, yes.  They asked him about paying taxes and he simply said "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."  His political statements were limited.

And again, I didn't say one could NEVER say anything the touched on political matters.  But generally when it comes to non-essential political tribal disagreements, if you have a bigger mission in mind it would be best to going there if you can.

Now, having answered your question, care to address the actual points I made?

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

I guess we just disagree, as we seem to do on most things. I have no problem with Franklin Graham or I wouldn't support Samaritan's Purse. So let's just move on.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Just now, Proud Tiger said:

I guess we just disagree, as we seem to do on most things. I have no problem with Franklin Graham or I wouldn't support Samaritan's Purse. So let's just move on.

Ok.  I don't really understand why you don't really discuss points people make in any significant detail, but fine.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Ok.  I don't really understand why you don't really discuss points people make in any significant detail, but fine.

Because I'm not into a long series of posts when after awhile it becomes apparent neither side is going to change their minds. It is a waste of productive time. That's not to say I don't move on without respecting the other person's opinion(s). Ever wonder how many long discussions you have seen here that with one or the other person changing their opinion.?

[TitanTiger 20,511]

25 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

Because I'm not into a long series of posts when after awhile it becomes apparent neither side is going to change their minds. It is a waste of productive time.

That's not to say I don't move on without respecting the other person's opinion(s). Ever wonder how many long discussions you have seen here that with one or the other person changing their opinion.?

But you don't really try that hard either.  I mean, what is the point of even participating in a discussion forum like this where important issues get talked about if you aren't willing to make a good case for your views, or bother to actually respond to the cases others make?

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

45 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

But you don't really try that hard either.  I mean, what is the point of even participating in a discussion forum like this where important issues get talked about if you aren't willing to make a good case for your views, or bother to actually respond to the cases others make?

Because I'm more interesting in just seeing what other poster's opinions are on a topic. I'm willing to state my opinion/position on a topic but don't need a string of posts that go on and on.......like this one. I'm  sure you notice that is the case with a lot of posters.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

2 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

Because I'm more interesting in just seeing what other poster's opinions are on a topic. I'm willing to state my opinion/position on a topic but don't need a string of posts that go on and on.......like this one. I'm  sure you notice that is the case with a lot of posters.

Ok.  Suit yourself.  I mean, it's great to get a quick temperature of the room.  But I much prefer to explore the underlying reasoning behind one's stated opinions.  At least when it's done with those who engage honestly and put forth the effort, I find that I learn something.  Either it ends up altering my views or arguments to some degree or at the very least I have a better understanding of why someone feels the way they feel than before, even if I still disagree.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

14 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Ok.  Suit yourself.  I mean, it's great to get a quick temperature of the room.  But I much prefer to explore the underlying reasoning behind one's stated opinions.  At least when it's done with those who engage honestly and put forth the effort, I find that I learn something.  Either it ends up altering my views or arguments to some degree or at the very least I have a better understanding of why someone feels the way they feel than before, even if I still disagree.

I respect your preference and I like to do that in person. But as you know I m now 80. Arthritis is setting in my hands/fingers and I'm a bit shaky. So typing is not as easy as it used to be way back in 2002 or so when the board was born. So I spend most of my day just playing the stock market and end up most days much more productive than spending a lot of time here. I do enjoy watching others posters long  discussions where I can just read and maybe briefly react.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

33 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

I respect your preference and I like to do that in person. But as you know I m now 80. Arthritis is setting in my hands/fingers and I'm a bit shaky. So typing is not as easy as it used to be way back in 2002 or so when the board was born. So I spend most of my day just playing the stock market and end up most days much more productive than spending a lot of time here. I do enjoy watching others posters long  discussions where I can just read and maybe briefly react.

That's understandable and I hadn't considered that.