Billy Graham has passed away

[PUB78 1,363]

21 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I already said what was wrong with it...it puts up unnecessary hinderances to much more important efforts.  It's a polarizing thing to do and you end up turning many of very people off that you would like to reach.  Not only because they, out of admiration for your father's legacy and the work you're doing contribute to it, but in terms of the Gospel.

I didn't say he had to be a clone of his father.  But one can learn from and follow the example and the wisdom that their father passes down to them without losing themselves in the process.

Franklin is more “direct” and outspoken than his Dad, but we also live in a much more wicked world than when Billy Graham was in his prime.

[PUB78 1,363]

21 hours ago, Proud Tiger said:

I disagree but I'm sure you can rebuke even that. But one FACT.......I gave $12,000 to Samaritans Purse in 2017, more than I ever have. You are entitled to your opinion but you have no facts to back it up.

Very generous of you! Makes my small yearly donations seem like peanuts.

[AUDub 11,184]

7 minutes ago, PUB78 said:

Franklin is more “direct” and outspoken than his Dad, but we also live in a much more wicked world than when Billy Graham was in his prime.

Do we truly, or are we simply more aware? By the majority of metrics, we're making progress. 

[TitanTiger 20,511]

29 minutes ago, PUB78 said:

Franklin is more “direct” and outspoken than his Dad, but we also live in a much more wicked world than when Billy Graham was in his prime.

We're more wicked in some ways, sure.  But in others we're better than we once were.  Billy was in his prime during an era of state-endorsed segregation, lynchings, and Jim Crow and a time of open and rampant sexual discrimination in workplaces for instance.  It was nothing for the average white person to refer to black people as n***ers in casual conversation.  It was truly one of the biggest moral wickedness as a nation in our history outside of slavery itself.  Though things aren't perfect in that regard, there has been a lot of repentance and changing of attitudes and hearts on those issues since then.

And I'm not even suggesting that Franklin shouldn't speak out on moral matters.  Billy certainly did.  But it's not him speaking out on matters of morality that is causing the problems with him.

[17-16 21]

For a church leader to encourage the church to oppose, at the voting booth, ungodly practices is not out of line. Prophet after prophet did just this throughout scripture. Just like today, their message was mostly rejected. Anyone who believes the Word of God is inclusive is not reading the word. Jesus' ministry of 3 plus years produced only 120 in an upper room just 10 days after ascending back to heaven. I know there were others not in Jerusalem, but by enlarge, His message was rejected by the masses. Fact is, we either accept that God is God, and we are not, or we make ourselves god, our make up a God that pleases us. I have not heard Franklin speak contrary to scripture. And if he speaks truthfully from scripture, no believer should object. Gods Word does convict and offend, believers and non-believers, but God's Word is to be loved by the believers. Ps 119:47-48, Ps119:97, Ps 119:127, John 14:15. These are just a few examples, but it only scratches the surface.   

[TitanTiger 20,511]

1 hour ago, 17-16 said:

For a church leader to encourage the church to oppose, at the voting booth, ungodly practices is not out of line. Prophet after prophet did just this throughout scripture. Just like today, their message was mostly rejected. Anyone who believes the Word of God is inclusive is not reading the word. Jesus' ministry of 3 plus years produced only 120 in an upper room just 10 days after ascending back to heaven. I know there were others not in Jerusalem, but by enlarge, His message was rejected by the masses. Fact is, we either accept that God is God, and we are not, or we make ourselves god, our make up a God that pleases us. I have not heard Franklin speak contrary to scripture. And if he speaks truthfully from scripture, no believer should object. Gods Word does convict and offend, believers and non-believers, but God's Word is to be loved by the believers. Ps 119:47-48, Ps119:97, Ps 119:127, John 14:15. These are just a few examples, but it only scratches the surface.   

That's not really what he did though.  It's one thing to lay out Christian moral and ethical positions and encourage Christians to vote according to such things.  It's another to openly endorse candidates or parties, to go on talk shows to defend or promote certain candidates and so on.  His father was careful to speak clearly on moral issues while not wading directly into the weeds on political candidates and parties.  Franklin needs to learn that nuance.

[17-16 21]

Understanding that God calls us, through the Holy Spirit, to certain tasks of His divine choosing, I feel it best not to pass judgment on his ministry. I am sure there were folks complaining that Joshua did not do things like Moses, but Joshua did follow God's will as he was led. If Franklin is indeed following the guidance of the Spirit, then to chastise Franklin is really to chastise the divine sovereignty of the Holy Spirit. He is certainly not his dad, but he may very well be exactly who God wants him to be. 1 Corinthians 1: 12-13 clearly explains how God uses different people with different personalities for different purposes, but all for the glory of God.  Many godly men and women in the bible made their views of state leaders known. First to come to mind was John the Baptist, who Jesus said was the greatest man born to a woman. He made no bones about King Herod's sinful lifestyle. I hope my post does not seem aggressive or argumentative. Franklin has been pretty solid in his teaching/preaching and I know I personally lack the divine wisdom to know he is being disobedient to the Spirit. I believe he is my brother in Christ, and I will love and encourage him in his journey. I certainly need it!

[TitanTiger 20,511]

When you get into speculating about what God may or may not have told someone to do, there's really no point in discussing it any further because it's literally impossible to know.  Franklin himself hasn't made such claims.

The only thing I'll say is, while John the Baptist called out Herod for his sinful life, Franklin has only attempted to explain and defend Trump over his.  He's not excusing the actions themselves per se, but he minimizes it by saying that it's in the past, or he doesn't believe the latest claims of immorality, or "we aren't electing a pastor", etc.  I don't really think you can really say that what Franklin has done is in line with John the Baptist on this.  JtB didn't say of Herod, "yeah, he divorced his own wife and stole his brother's wife from him, but he's a king not a Levitical priest here...."

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Well timed given our conversation here: 

Quote

 

Billy Graham Warned Against Embracing a President. His Son Has Gone Another Way.

By LAURIE GOODSTEINFEB. 26, 2018

The Rev. Billy Graham admitted in his later years that he had learned a hard lesson after the Watergate scandal exposed his cozy complicity with President Richard M. Nixon: Pastors should not become too enmeshed with politicians and partisan politics.

“Looking back I know I sometimes crossed the line, and I wouldn’t do that now,” he said to the magazine Christianity Today in 2011.

Now, the movement that he helped spawn is divided over the very danger that Mr. Graham — who died last week at age 99 — had warned about. Evangelicals have become locked in a tight embrace with President Trump and the Republican Party, and some of them are now asking whether they have compromised the Gospel message.

Among Mr. Trump’s most vocal evangelical supporters, few are as high-profile as Billy Graham’s eldest son and the heir to his ministry, the Rev. Franklin Graham, who is 65. Though admired among evangelicals for his aid work in hardship zones with the charity he leads, Samaritan’s Purse, he has drawn criticism for his unstinting support of the president.

Franklin Graham has defended the president on television and social media through the white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va., the crackdowns on immigrants and refugees, the Stormy Daniels scandal, and the slur against Haiti and Africa.

“People say that the president says mean things. I can’t think of anything mean he’s said. I think he speaks what he feels,” Mr. Graham said in a wide-ranging telephone interview last week. “I think he’s trying to speak the truth.”

Billy Graham’s funeral in North Carolina on Friday, which Mr. Trump will attend, will likely serve as a reminder for some evangelicals of how their movement has mutated and splintered from one generation to the next. Before the funeral, Mr. Graham’s body is lying in repose at the Billy Graham Library in Charlotte, N.C., on Monday and Tuesday, and then will be moved to the Capitol rotunda in Washington on Wednesday and Thursday.

In his lifetime, Billy Graham shepherded evangelical Christianity from the margins of American life to its center. His massive revivals, magnetic presence and media stardom earned him entree to President Harry S. Truman and every president since, both Republican and Democrat.

His funeral is expected to draw politicians from both political parties, showcasing Billy Graham’s success at bipartisanship. The eulogy is to be delivered by his son, Franklin, who has honed a reputation as a polarizing partisan.

When Barack Obama was president, Franklin Graham fanned the “birther” conspiracy that claimed the president was not an American citizen. He falsely suggested that Mr. Obama was not a Christian and might secretly be a Muslim.

During the 2016 presidential campaign, Franklin Graham held rallies in 50 states to pump up evangelical turnout on what he called a “Decision America Tour.” Once Mr. Trump landed the Republican nomination, Mr. Graham avoided explicit endorsements at those rallies, but left no doubt about his preference.

After the election, Mr. Graham said that Mr. Trump’s victory was evidence that “God’s hand was at work.” He was one of the six clergy members chosen to offer prayers at the inauguration, and is among the evangelical pastors who serve as informal advisers to Mr. Trump and Vice President Mike Pence.

In doing so, Franklin Graham has become a prominent leader of the evangelical faction that is white, older, conservative on immigration, L.G.B.T. issues and guns, and loyal to the Republican Party and Mr. Trump. Some 80 percent of white evangelicals voted for Mr. Trump, according to the Pew Research Center.

But there is another wing of the evangelical movement whose members are more moderate politically, many of them black, Latino, Asian, or city dwellers, or young. Some of these evangelicals have grown increasingly discomfited by the close association with the Republican Party, and now, with Mr. Trump.

For years, there had been muted criticism of Franklin Graham by some evangelicals. It began after the Sept. 11 attacks, when Mr. Graham branded Islam a “very wicked and evil religion,” and escalated during Mr. Graham’s stoking of the “birther” slander. But given his status as evangelical royalty and respect for his charitable work, the misgivings mostly remained private.

Billy Graham chose not to pass judgment on his son, at least in public. When asked in an interview at his home in 2005 whether he agreed with his son’s words about Islam, he would only respond, “Let’s say, I didn’t say it.”

Now with some evangelical leaders concerned about the direction of their movement, the concerns about Franklin Graham have begun to emerge.

“I think that Franklin Graham has failed as a Christian leader, both for what he endorses and for what he has failed to criticize. I speak for a lot of people on that one,” said Richard J. Mouw, president emeritus and professor of faith and public life at the evangelical Fuller Theological Seminary, the nation’s largest full-time seminary.

“A lot of us were deeply grateful to Billy Graham for acknowledging that he aligned himself in unhelpful and actually non-Christian ways with a person in power,” Dr. Mouw said in an interview last week. “We’re grateful that he said, ‘I was wrong, that was a dangerous thing to have done.’ And now, here we see the same patterns repeated, even by his own son.”

Jerushah Armfield, one of Billy Graham’s granddaughters, has chastised her uncle Franklin and other evangelical leaders for their willingness to overlook behavior by Mr. Trump that is widely seen as immoral and un-Christian.

“It’s sending the wrong message to the world about what Christianity is, and what evangelicals are, or I guess, have become,” she recently said on CNN. (After her grandfather died, she declined a request for an interview).

Franklin Graham said his critics may be complaining to the news media, “but they haven’t talked to me.”

He said he was well aware of his father’s advice about keeping a distance from politicians, and said, “I think it’s good advice.”

But he said he had no reservations about his alliance with Mr. Trump, whom he was drawn to in 2011, while Mr. Trump was carrying on the “birther” campaign against Mr. Obama.

He said that Mr. Trump has delivered for evangelicals on every issue — from abortion, to religious freedom to vowing to abolish the Johnson Amendment that inhibits churches from endorsing politicians.

“In my lifetime, he has supported the Christian faith more than any president that I know,” Mr. Graham said. “That doesn’t mean he is the greatest example of the Christian faith, and neither am I, but he defends the faith. There’s a difference between defending the faith and living the faith.”

He said the media has lied about Mr. Trump, but when asked whether Mr. Trump has told any lies, he said, “I don’t know of any.”

Mr. Graham was dismissive of questions surrounding Mr. Trump and Russian government interference in the 2016 race. “I’ll be honest with you. This whole thing on Russia? I don’t believe it. I don’t believe he has collusion with the Russians,” Mr. Graham said. “And I think if somebody in his campaign was involved, the president would have fired him.”

William C. Martin, a senior fellow in religion at Rice University’s Baker Institute, interviewed father and son for his biography, “A Prophet With Honor: The Billy Graham Story.” He said that Franklin was more like his mother — outspoken and not hesitant to offend. Billy was “always auditioning, wanting to be accepted,” said Mr. Martin, paraphrasing a friend of the elder Graham.

Billy Graham had three daughters and two sons, all of whom have carried on the work of Christian evangelism, whether through preaching, writing or running ministries. So have many of his grandchildren, but each has interpreted the calling differently. And like the evangelical movement, they are not all on the same page when it comes to politics.

Boz Tchividjian, whose mother, Gigi, is Billy Graham’s eldest daughter, is a former prosecutor who founded the organization GRACE — Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment — to investigate and prevent child abuse in evangelical ministries. He said his grandfather inspired him to work “with those who are hurting and have been marginalized by society, and quite frankly, the church.”

It was his sister, Ms. Armfield, who criticized their uncle Franklin on CNN. Ms. Armfield, who is married to a Baptist pastor, is not the only one in the family who feels that way, Mr. Tchividjian said.

“It’s a large family, and it’s a large family that doesn’t agree on everything,” said Mr. Tchividjian, who is also a professor at Liberty University School of Law, in Virginia.

When Billy Graham handed Franklin the reins of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association in 2001, many people in the organization did not think he was ready for the role, Mr. Martin said.

“Franklin turned out to be better in some ways than they thought he would be” at running an organization and preaching, Mr. Martin said.

“People are worried now that Billy Graham’s legacy will be diminished by some of the actions and positions that Franklin has espoused,” he said. “But I don’t know that that bothers Franklin. Or his supporters.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/26/us/billy-graham-franklin-graham-trump.html

 

 

[augolf1716 21,303]

6 hours ago, Proud Tiger said:

I respect your preference and I like to do that in person. But as you know I m now 80. Arthritis is setting in my hands/fingers and I'm a bit shaky. So typing is not as easy as it used to be way back in 2002 or so when the board was born. So I spend most of my day just playing the stock market and end up most days much more productive than spending a lot of time here. I do enjoy watching others posters long  discussions where I can just read and maybe briefly react.

Dang your an old fart.....arthritis is a horrible disease. My dad had rheumatoid arthritis when he was 19 years old

[17-16 21]

I guess many today argue over whose side God is on. I think Abraham Lincoln said it best when he was asked that during the Civil War. Lincoln replied" Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side, my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right. You mentioned timing. God's word is always on time. Rom 13: 1- 2 tells us God has picked our leaders, and we should not rebel against them. Now, I have not always understood God's hand, but I trust His heart. If Romans be correct then Pres Trump is president by divine appointment, and I am to respect that. I am also to pray for him according to 1 Timothy 2:1-2. I have struggled with this myself, and I had to decide if I was going "To be on God's side or not". It was not always easy but, I did show respect for my leaders(most of the time. the other times I was sinning) and prayed for them. I don't know if my prayers concerning the leaders were answered, but God did a work on me. I learned how to better enjoy the peace of my salvation.

As for Franklin, I still don't find what he is teaching to be in conflict with God's word. Maybe as his brothers and sisters we should just pray for him and not argue with the brethren before the lost. I love you Tiger and hope you find true peace in the next few years. I really mean that. Its God's will for you.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

53 minutes ago, augolf1716 said:

Dang your an old fart.....arthritis is a horrible disease. My dad had rheumatoid arthritis when he was 19 years old

You just now knowing that? So sorry to hear that about your Dad

[augolf1716 21,303]

Just now, Proud Tiger said:

You just now knowing that? So sorry to hear that about your Dad

No I knew you were an old fart just not that old of an old fart. 

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

4 minutes ago, augolf1716 said:

No I knew you were an old fart just not that old of an old fart. 

LOL. my memory is bad too but seems like I remember talking to Moses one night.

[augolf1716 21,303]

30 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

LOL. my memory is bad too but seems like I remember talking to Moses one night.

I was the one behind you in the line

[homersapien 11,452]

16 hours ago, 17-16 said:

Understanding that God calls us, through the Holy Spirit, to certain tasks of His divine choosing, I feel it best not to pass judgment on his ministry. I am sure there were folks complaining that Joshua did not do things like Moses, but Joshua did follow God's will as he was led. If Franklin is indeed following the guidance of the Spirit, then to chastise Franklin is really to chastise the divine sovereignty of the Holy Spirit. He is certainly not his dad, but he may very well be exactly who God wants him to be. 1 Corinthians 1: 12-13 clearly explains how God uses different people with different personalities for different purposes, but all for the glory of God.  Many godly men and women in the bible made their views of state leaders known. First to come to mind was John the Baptist, who Jesus said was the greatest man born to a woman. He made no bones about King Herod's sinful lifestyle. I hope my post does not seem aggressive or argumentative. Franklin has been pretty solid in his teaching/preaching and I know I personally lack the divine wisdom to know he is being disobedient to the Spirit. I believe he is my brother in Christ, and I will love and encourage him in his journey. I certainly need it!

I am curious.  Do you think believe AIDS was punishment from God directed on homosexuals?  Do you think "Russia's standards on protecting our children from any homosexual agenda or propaganda is higher than our own"?

Billy made mistakes, but at least he had enough grace to ultimately recognize and regret them.  Franklin, not so much.

 

[17-16 21]

3 hours ago, homersapien said:

I am curious.  Do you think believe AIDS was punishment from God directed on homosexuals?  Do you think "Russia's standards on protecting our children from any homosexual agenda or propaganda is higher than our own"?

Billy made mistakes, but at least he had enough grace to ultimately recognize and regret them.  Franklin, not so much.

 

God put man in a in a world that was created for him and it was GOOD. Ge 2: 16- 17 God commands not to eat of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden or "In the day you eat of it you will surely die". When the fruit was eaten, death (spiritual and physical) entered what was GOOD. When I study this with many other references to sinful nature and flesh, and how God rescues, I tend to believe that AIDS as well as flu, cancer, and everything else that restricts life entered as a result of sin. To say that God does not "punish" would not be accurate, for He is sovereign. God did use poisonous snakes in the wilderness to bring His people back to Himself. But one thing I believe to be true: God is the answer, not the problem. And the subject is sin and what to do about it.  There have been times I feel God has punished me (I remember only times being after salvation) to call me back to Himself and a better life, but mostly bad things happen to me as a RESULT of sin. And Christ is the only remedy for sin. Christ is a gift to sinners from a Good, Good Father. 

[homersapien 11,452]

On 2/28/2018 at 2:34 PM, 17-16 said:

God put man in a in a world that was created for him and it was GOOD. Ge 2: 16- 17 God commands not to eat of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden or "In the day you eat of it you will surely die". When the fruit was eaten, death (spiritual and physical) entered what was GOOD. When I study this with many other references to sinful nature and flesh, and how God rescues, I tend to believe that AIDS as well as flu, cancer, and everything else that restricts life entered as a result of sin. To say that God does not "punish" would not be accurate, for He is sovereign. God did use poisonous snakes in the wilderness to bring His people back to Himself. But one thing I believe to be true: God is the answer, not the problem. And the subject is sin and what to do about it.  There have been times I feel God has punished me (I remember only times being after salvation) to call me back to Himself and a better life, but mostly bad things happen to me as a RESULT of sin. And Christ is the only remedy for sin. Christ is a gift to sinners from a Good, Good Father. 

Okaaaaay......

I'll take that as a "yes".

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 3:29 PM, TitanTiger said:

That's not really what he did though.  It's one thing to lay out Christian moral and ethical positions and encourage Christians to vote according to such things.  It's another to openly endorse candidates or parties, to go on talk shows to defend or promote certain candidates and so on.  His father was careful to speak clearly on moral issues while not wading directly into the weeds on political candidates and parties.  Franklin needs to learn that nuance.

Not to start an argument but I watched a great one hour documentary on Billy Graham covering his life from childhood until his recent death. I was surprised how much he did become involved in "politics." He caused a lot of ripples at home and abroad when he began having crusades/meetings in communist countries. This was unheard of in that day. It was incredible that he got permission to preach in Moscow with permission from Khrushchev. I agree this isn't support of a candidate or a party but I do think Franklin has spoken out on more on issues and if a candidate shares his position then he speaks in his/her favor. JMHO.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Putting aside the debate over whether Franklin Graham should severely curtail the amount of political stuff he spouts off about, can we all at least agree that if he's going to talk to at least not say idiotic stuff?
 

Quote

Franklin Graham: ‘Progressive’ Is a Code Word For Someone Who Doesn’t Believe in God

https://relevantmagazine.com/god/franklin-graham-progressive-code-word-someone-doesnt-believe-god/

 

[homersapien 11,452]

57 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Putting aside the debate over whether Franklin Graham should severely curtail the amount of political stuff he spouts off about, can we all at least agree that if he's going to talk to at least not say idiotic stuff?
 

 

That statement about progressives sums up Franklin pretty well from my perspective.

He's divisive.  And deliberately so.  The kind of person who would be happy to establish a theocracy in this country.