You can't handle the truth!

[TexasTiger 13,028]

At least that is what the Bush administration thinks.

Tillman’s parents lash out at Army

Handling of Ranger’s death called a ‘sign of disrespect’

By Josh White

The Washington Post

Updated: 5:53 a.m. ET May 23, 2005

Former NFL player Pat Tillman's family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss.

More than a year after their son was shot several times by his fellow Army Rangers on a craggy hillside near the Pakistani border, Tillman's mother and father said in interviews that they believe the military and the government created a heroic tale about how their son died to foster a patriotic response across the country. They say the Army's "lies" about what happened have made them suspicious, and that they are certain they will never get the full story.

‘A sign of disrespect’

"Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did," Mary Tillman said in her first lengthy interview since her son's death. "The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting."

Tillman, a popular player for the Arizona Cardinals, gave up stardom in the National Football League after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to join the Army Rangers with his brother. After a tour in Iraq, their unit was sent to Afghanistan in spring 2004, where they were to hunt for the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy as he got into position to defend them.

Immediately, the Army kept the soldiers on the ground quiet and told Tillman's family and the public that he was killed by enemy fire while storming a hill, barking orders to his fellow Rangers. After a public memorial service, at which Tillman received the Silver Star, the Army told Tillman's family what had really happened, that he had been killed by his own men.

Death marked by confusion, disarray

In separate interviews in their home town of San Jose and by telephone, Tillman's parents, who are divorced, spoke about their ordeal with the Army with simmering frustration and anger. A series of military investigations have offered differing accounts of Tillman's death. The most recent report revealed more deeply the confusion and disarray surrounding the mission he was on, and more clearly showed that the family had been kept in the dark about details of his death.

The latest investigation, written about by The Washington Post earlier this month, showed that soldiers in Afghanistan knew almost immediately that they had killed Tillman by mistake in what they believed was a firefight with enemies on a tight canyon road. The investigation also revealed that soldiers later burned Tillman's uniform and body armor.

That information was slow to make it back to the United States, the report said, and Army officials here were unaware that his death on April 22, 2004, was fratricide when they notified the family that Tillman had been shot.

Over the next 10 days, however, top-ranking Army officials — including the theater commander, Army Gen. John P. Abizaid — were told of the reports that Tillman had been killed by his own men, the investigation said. But the Army waited until a formal investigation was finished before telling the family — which was weeks after a nationally televised memorial service that honored Tillman on May 3, 2004.

‘They blew up their poster boy’

Patrick Tillman Sr., a San Jose lawyer, said he is furious about what he found in the volumes of witness statements and investigative documents the Army has given to the family. He decried what he calls a "botched homicide investigation" and blames high-ranking Army officers for presenting "outright lies" to the family and to the public.

"After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this," Patrick Tillman said. "They purposely interfered with the investigation, they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy."

Army expresses ‘heartfelt sorrow’

Army spokesmen maintain that the Army has done everything it can to keep the family informed about the investigation, offering to answer relatives' questions and going back to them as investigators gathered more information.

Army officials said Friday that the Army "reaffirms its heartfelt sorrow to the Tillman family and all families who have lost loved ones during this war." Brig. Gen. Vincent K. Brooks, an Army spokesman, said the Army acts with compassion and heartfelt commitment when informing grieving families, often a painful duty.

"In the case of the death of Corporal Patrick Tillman, the Army made mistakes in reporting the circumstances of his death to the family," Brooks said. "For these, we apologize. We cannot undo those early mistakes."

Brooks said the Army has "actively and directly" informed the Tillman family regarding investigations into his death and has dedicated a team of soldiers and civilians to answering the family's questions through phone calls and personal meetings while ensuring the family "was as well informed as they could be."

‘You can never put it to rest’

Mary Tillman keeps her son's wedding album in the living room of the house where he grew up, and his Arizona State University football jersey, still dirty from the 1997 Rose Bowl game, hangs in a nearby closet. With each new version of events, her mind swirls with new theories about what really happened and why. She questions how an elite Army unit could gun down its most recognizable member at such close range. She dwells on distances and boulders and piles of documents and the words of frenzied men.

"It makes you feel like you're losing your mind in a way," she said. "You imagine things. When you don't know the truth, certain details can be blown out of proportion. The truth may be painful, but it's the truth. You start to contrive all these scenarios that could have taken place because they just kept lying. If you feel you're being lied to, you can never put it to rest."

Patrick Tillman Sr. believes he will never get the truth, and he says he is resigned to that now. But he wants everyone in the chain of command, from Tillman's direct supervisors to the one-star general who conducted the latest investigation, to face discipline for "dishonorable acts." He also said the soldiers who killed his son have not been adequately punished.

"Maybe lying's not a big deal anymore," he said. "Pat's dead, and this isn't going to bring him back. But these guys should have been held up to scrutiny, right up the chain of command, and no one has."

Not just any soldier

That their son was famous opened up the situation to problems, the Tillmans say, in part because of the devastating public relations loss his death represented for the military. Mary Tillman says the government used her son for weeks after his death, perpetuating an untrue story to capitalize on his altruism — just as the Abu Ghraib prison scandal was erupting publicly. She said she was particularly offended when President Bush offered a taped memorial message to Tillman at a Cardinals football game shortly before the presidential election last fall. She again felt as though her son was being used, something he never would have wanted.

"Every day is sort of emotional," Mary Tillman said. "It just keeps slapping me in the face. To find that he was killed in this debacle — everything that could have gone wrong did — it's so much harder to take. We should not have been subjected to all of this. This lie was to cover their image. I think there's a lot more yet that we don't even know, or they wouldn't still be covering their tails.

"If this is what happens when someone high profile dies, I can only imagine what happens with everyone else."

[Auburn85 432]

So the Bush administration is personally responsible for the incorrect Tillman report?

[TexasTiger 13,028]

So the Bush administration is personally responsible  for the incorrect Tillman report?

160714[/snapback]

An "administration" is not a "person". But, no, I'm sure it is the Clinton administration's fault.

Maybe he'll fill in the details about what he means by this:

"After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this," Patrick Tillman said. "They purposely interfered with the investigation, they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy."

[AURaptor 1,126]

How often will old news be repackaged and recycled so as to make the United States appear to be what it isn't ?

[Auburn85 432]

Dang, don't be so defensive. I mean you assumed that I was wanting to inject something from the Clinton administration.

This was handeled wrong. The family shouldn't have to go through this...again. Heck ,they screwed up the report. Why can't ypou leave it at that? Instead you had to put this:

At least that is what the Bush administration thinks

Why must you make a statement like this? This is a tragedy and you still have to take a jab at Bush. Make a Bush Bashing thread and go crazy, but this wasn't appropriate.

And yes...yes...yes... you can criticize the president... so spare me for the 100th time of quoting the famous line by Teddy Roosevelt

They're over 300,000 troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and some how this has to be related with the Bush Administration spin machine or a possible coverup?

[TexasTiger 13,028]

Dang, don't be so defensive. I mean you assumed that I was wanting to inject something from the Clinton administration.

This was handeled wrong. The family shouldn't have to go through this...again. Heck ,they screwed up the report. Why can't ypou leave it at that?  Instead you had to put this:

At least that is what the Bush administration thinks

Why must you make a statement like this? This is a tragedy and you still have to take a jab at Bush. Make a Bush Bashing thread and go crazy, but this wasn't appropriate.

And yes...yes...yes... you can criticize the president... so spare me for the 100th time of quoting the famous line by Teddy Roosevelt

They're over 300,000 troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and some how this has to be related with the Bush Administration spin machine or a possible coverup?

160719[/snapback]

I didn't "bash Bush". You guys call any questioning of the administration "bashing." "Yes, yes, yes, you can criticize the President...but DON'T!"

The "Bush adminstration" is an entity-- a damn big one. It is largely what the leader makes it, but it is not synomous with the man. But there are some common threads. The BS "scripting" of the Jessica Lynch story. NO ONE being held accountable. Somebody, in fact probably several, were actively involved in lying and spinning. Who's been held accountable? If you report to me, I count on you and find out you lied to me, you are going to answer for it. The only reason you wouldn't is if lying was what I wanted you to do in the first place. Whose to blame? Let the Pentagon tell us. Hold people accountable. Demonstrate the "problem" has been addressed. The only reason they wouldn't do so is if what was done was what was wanted. George Tenet is now skewered for bad intelligence, yet Bush puts the biggest possible honor around his neck and defends him. NO one accountable, Bush defenders point one way, but the guy they point at gets rewarded. I'll bet there are more promotions than court martials in this one.

[AURaptor 1,126]

TexasTiger - There's a website dedicated to ridiculing our troops and even stating that the ones who have died 'deserved it'. If you've not already found it, I suggest you spend more time over there than posting the crap you're posting here.

[TexasTiger 13,028]

TexasTiger - There's a website dedicated to ridiculing our troops and even stating that the ones who have died 'deserved it'. If you've not already found it, I suggest you spend more time over there than posting the crap you're posting here.

160721[/snapback]

Interesting that you're the one who knows about it. I grew up moving from base to base. I have no doubt that I respect the sacrifice of our troops far more than someone like you is even capable. You defend the actions of those who manipulate the families of those who make the ultimate sacrifice. I wouldn't have thought it possible, but a new low for you.

[AURaptor 1,126]

You defend the actions of those who manipulate the families of those who make the ultimate sacrifice. I wouldn't have thought it possible, but a new low for you.

Funny, all I've seen from you is post after post mocking and ridiculing everything that goes wrong w/ the military in an attempt to blame Bush and or America. I never said I defended what the military did per the Tillman case, so you can stop lying anytime now. There are some pretty good stories and positive things coming out of Iraq, despite the spin from the Left. If you cared 1/2 as much as you claim, you'd at the very least post some of THOSE stories.

But then folks might think you actually do care.

[TexasTiger 13,028]

You defend the actions of those who manipulate the families of those who make the ultimate sacrifice. I wouldn't have thought it possible, but a new low for you.

Funny, all I've seen from you is post after post mocking and ridiculing everything that goes wrong w/ the military in an attempt to blame Bush and or America. I never said I defended what the military did per the Tillman case, so you can stop lying anytime now. There are some pretty good stories and positive things coming out of Iraq, despite the spin from the Left. If you cared 1/2 as much as you claim, you'd at the very least post some of THOSE stories.

But then folks might think you actually do care.

160725[/snapback]

I never said I defended what the military did per the Tillman case, so you can stop lying anytime now.

Crap?

If you've not already found it, I suggest you spend more time over there than posting the crap you're posting here.

Funny, all I've seen from you is post after post mocking and ridiculing everything that goes wrong w/ the military in an attempt to blame Bush and or America.

Back it up, you lying b*****d.

As a totalitarian, you don't realize there's a difference.

Bush and or America.

[AURaptor 1,126]

There's this post, of course. And this one Blame the messenger that you started.

Is 2 enough for ya ?

I'm not a 'totalitarian',btw. Seems you'd still on that lying kick. You really should cut that stuff out.

[TexasTiger 13,028]

There's this post, of  course.  And this one Blame the messenger that  you started.

Is 2 enough for ya ?

I'm not a 'totalitarian',btw. Seems you'd still on that lying kick. You really should cut that stuff out. 

160728[/snapback]

You're pure Stalinist with a little Mussolini thrown in. Freedom and an informed populace scares you to death.

[AURaptor 1,126]

You're pure Stalinist with a little Mussolini thrown in. Freedom and an informed populace scares you to death.

Still can't break that lying , huh? Keep blindly throwing names and accusations and maybe one day you'll hit the mark.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Guys, stop the name calling. I don't care who started it. This forum is starting to get out of hand.

[TexasTiger 13,028]

Guys, stop the name calling.  I don't care who started it.  This forum is starting to get out of hand.

160745[/snapback]

You're about an hour and twenty minutes late. It ended.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Guys, stop the name calling.  I don't care who started it.  This forum is starting to get out of hand.

160745[/snapback]

You're about an hour and twenty minutes late. It ended.

160747[/snapback]

Well, it was still the top thread. I didn't look at the time stamp.

But, truthfully, things have been pretty nasty around here for the last few weeks. Some of you guys never discuss anything at all, just snipe at each other. I have my opinions about who is more at fault, but for now, I'll just keep that to myself.

Would it be too much to ask of everyone to actually give serious thought to the opposing view and respond accordingly? Lots of kneejerk reactions. And I speak as one who has been guilty of this in the past, so I know it when I see it.

[TexasTiger 13,028]

They're over 300,000 troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and some how this has to be related with the Bush Administration spin machine or a possible coverup?

160719[/snapback]

BTW, where do you get your troop numbers?

[AURaptor 1,126]

Guys, stop the name calling.  I don't care who started it.  This forum is starting to get out of hand.

160745[/snapback]

Consider it stopped. Order restored back to the board.

[Auburn85 432]

It a combined number

[TexasTiger 13,028]

It a combined number

160800[/snapback]

What did you combine?

[Guest Tigrinum Major]

It a combined number

160800[/snapback]

What did you combine?

160808[/snapback]

As much as I hate to agree with TT, he is correct in questioning this total. Just off teh top of my head, I think it is about 150,000 - 180,000 total.

[Auburn85 432]

sorry.. thanks for the correction

[TexasTiger 13,028]

It a combined number

160800[/snapback]

What did you combine?

160808[/snapback]

As much as I hate to agree with TT, he is correct in questioning this total. Just off teh top of my head, I think it is about 150,000 - 180,000 total.

160810[/snapback]

"Hate"? Aw C'mon! It's just numbers. It's not like you're agreeing with me on policy or philosphy.

[Guest Tigrinum Major]

It a combined number

160800[/snapback]

What did you combine?

160808[/snapback]

As much as I hate to agree with TT, he is correct in questioning this total. Just off teh top of my head, I think it is about 150,000 - 180,000 total.

160810[/snapback]

"Hate"? Aw C'mon! It's just numbers. It's not like you're agreeing with me on policy or philosphy.

160886[/snapback]

True, true. Touche'.