Now a coin flip

[SocialCircle 570]

7 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I quoted you dumbass. 

"I think Trump will get a vaccine out there as fast or faster than anybody else....."

You are the arrogant dumbass here.....not me.  I stand completely by my statement and renounce your spin. I never said Trump is the one developing the vaccine, but he has already put many things in place to get it out there as soon as possible. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

 

[TitanTiger 20,510]

4 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I can read for myself what Biden said soon after Trump announced the travel restrictions without the help of anyone else. This in my view is one of your biggest problems.  It is a fact the vast majority media are Democrats.  Why would I  (or you for that matter) rely on them to interpret Biden's actually words??????   Can you not read them for yourself????  It makes no sense to me and speaks very poorly of your judgement in my view. Why rely on "sources" when you can see and read things for yourself?  

I can read them for myself.  The great thing about the fact checking articles is that they post the full context of the remarks, not just snippets and not making assumptions.  So while I can read something myself, context matters.  Being clear on what a person is responding to matters.  

If that's my biggest problem, I'm a leg up on most.  

What's not going to fly is you trying to wave away all the sources you don't like with whining about media bias.  

If this is the best you can do, you should probably stick to sports.  You're a tee-baller in saggy pants trying to hit a major league fastball around here.  You're wasting everyone's time because despite all evidence to the contrary, we're still responding to you as if you are a serious person.

[homersapien 11,440]

1 minute ago, SocialCircle said:

You are the arrogant dumbass here.....not me.  I stand completely by my statement and renounce your spin. I never said Trump is the one developing the vaccine, but he has already put many things in place to get it out there as soon as possible. 

Such as.......

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

 

[homersapien 11,440]

2 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

You are the arrogant dumbass here.....not me.  I stand completely by my statement and renounce your spin. I never said Trump is the one developing the vaccine, but he has already put many things in place to get it out there as soon as possible. 

It wasn't spin.  Trump is doing nothing to produce a vaccine quicker than would not have been done without him.

I know he's trying to irresponsibly promote a vaccine by election day as a personal triumph, but that's just who he is - a con man. 

[SocialCircle 570]

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I can read them for myself.  The great thing about the fact checking articles is that they post the full context of the remarks, not just snippets and not making assumptions.  So while I can read something myself, context matters.  Being clear on what a person is responding to matters.  

If that's my biggest problem, I'm a leg up on most.

If this is the best you can do, you should probably stick to sports.  You're a tee-baller in saggy pants trying to hit a major league fastball around here.  You're wasting everyone's time because despite all evidence to the contrary, we're still responding to you as if you are a serious person.

And you're an arrogant know-it-all who has to rely on others to interpret things you see for yourself.  We agree context completely matters and I know the context and the timing of those remarks from Biden. .

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

I know he's trying to irresponsibly promote a vaccine by election day as a personal triumph, but that's just who he is - a con man. 

That's the thing. He's going to announce a vaccine before the election. He 100% is. Will there actually be one? Almost certainly not.

[SocialCircle 570]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

It wasn't spin.  Trump is doing nothing to produce a vaccine quicker than would not have been done without him.

I know he's trying to irresponsibly promote a vaccine by election day as a personal triumph, but that's just who he is - a con man. 

What you just posted that follows is impossible for anyone to know. "Trump is doing nothing to produce a vaccine quicker than would not have been done without him." We can agree to disagree. 

[TitanTiger 20,510]

1 minute ago, SocialCircle said:

And you're an arrogant know-it-all who has to rely on others to interpret things you see for yourself.  We agree context completely matters and I know the context and the timing of those remarks from Biden. .

Says the guy posting round after round of editorials.

You're out of your league.

[homersapien 11,440]

1 minute ago, SocialCircle said:

What you just posted that follows is impossible for anyone to know. "Trump is doing nothing to produce a vaccine quicker than would not have been done without him." We can agree to disagree. 

Well, the basis of your argument - Trump will get a vaccine.... depends on actions taken that he alone made happen.  So your phrasing is literally baseless.

 

[ToraGirl 5,498]

7 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

Most Americans don't use the POTUS (whoever it may be at the time) as a resource to make informed decisions about their own health. 

Smiling with the assumption that some still want him to be God. Yet they say that he embodies anything but with his manner, actions, views, past, etc.  I get it!  I understand the rancor.  But common sense just doesn't allow trust to be placed in any politician...and if you can't place trust, then you have to be careful where you place blame. That's the hypocrisy that is hard to witness, personally, on and off the forum.

Interesting KY note...on trusting politicians on this issue.  They do if they "LIKE" him.  The people of Kentucky LOVE Gov. Andy Beshear (at least the media purports the widespread love).  His nightly media chats have "calmed a lot of furor"/calmed a lot of furor.  I'm about half-sarcastic as I type...because for everything a leader tries to do, it's criticized.  Has Beshear babied Kentuckians or protected them?  Depending upon how you are viewed, you can do no/all wrong.  A few weeks ago, it was all the rage that people were drinking (what was it) because of a casual mention of possible vaccine-ingredients?  So is President Trump worthy of dispensing medical advice or not?  It depends upon what the meaning of IS...is. 

(much less attempting to debate "worthy", "dispensing", "medical advice", and the rest)

[SocialCircle 570]

3 hours ago, homersapien said:

Well, the basis of your argument - Trump will get a vaccine.... depends on actions taken that he alone made happen.  So your phrasing is literally baseless.

 

Not if you quote the complete sentence instead of trying to make something out of nothing. What a piss poor attitude! Relax. Have fun.

[Leftfield 2,653]

13 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Not if you quote the complete sentence instead of trying to make something out of nothing. What a piss poor attitude! Relax. Have fun.

Here is your exact quote:

"I think Trump will get a vaccine out there as fast or faster than anybody else and he has done a great job of setting up a network to get folks vaccinated. "

Please explain what steps Trump can take to get a vaccine out there faster than anyone else. That way we know exactly what you mean and can respond accordingly.

[SocialCircle 570]

1 hour ago, Leftfield said:

Here is your exact quote:

"I think Trump will get a vaccine out there as fast or faster than anybody else and he has done a great job of setting up a network to get folks vaccinated. "

Please explain what steps Trump can take to get a vaccine out there faster than anyone else. That way we know exactly what you mean and can respond accordingly.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/trump-administration-asks-states-to-be-ready-for-vaccine-by-november-11599075477
 

[AUFAN78 3,926]

14 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/trump-administration-asks-states-to-be-ready-for-vaccine-by-november-11599075477
 

For those willing to listen, we have heard countless times about how his ability to bypass red tape has accelerated the process. There's that. 

[Leftfield 2,653]

19 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/trump-administration-asks-states-to-be-ready-for-vaccine-by-november-11599075477
 

Ok, so you're talking about distribution of the vaccine and not actual development. Got it.

I'll give him kudos for asking the states to do what they must to be ready to distribute the vaccine. However, is this not a logical step for anyone even minimally competent to take? Is this the way you believe he would get the vaccine out there faster than anyone else?

I would also ask, do you not find the timing of this announcement even a little convenient? Telling the country that he's asked the states to be ready for a vaccine that will just happen to be released right around election day? Do you allow any chance at all that it was politically motivated?

[johnnyAU 3,645]

On a side note, I thought this was hilarious...."Jimmy Carter Says Willie Nelson Smoked Pot with His Son on the Roof of the White House"  

Perhaps ole Slick Willie was there too, but didn't inhale.  

[AUFAN78 3,926]

12 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

Most Americans don't use the POTUS (whoever it may be at the time) as a resource to make informed decisions about their own health. 

Lol. I need to ask Trump why my hair is turning blonde? Too much beach time? (maybe the bleach he told me to inject? )

Fauci stated Trump was briefed daily and reported what he was told. 

[Mikey 16,721]

9 hours ago, homersapien said:

How about the one the Trump administration ignored?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/obama-team-left-pandemic-playbook-for-trump-administration-officials-confirm

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6819268/Pandemic-Playbook.pdf

Trump ignored something Obama left laying around? Kudos, President Trump! Sure do wish Obama had rotated all that PPE equipment instead of wasting time on a playbook.

[SocialCircle 570]

17 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Says the guy posting round after round of editorials.

You're out of your league.

You asked for it and then whine when you get it. I posted  the second one with the clear and stated intention of getting Biden’s direct quote shortly after Trump announced the travel restrictions in the discussion. You are the guy who watches a complete speech and then goes over to CNN so they can explain to you what you just saw and heard. It is really sad. You are allowing yourself to be manipulated by the media as opposed to believing in your own reasoning ability. I feel sorry for you. 

[TitanTiger 20,510]

41 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

You asked for it and then whine when you get it.

No, I asked you to find better sources, not just "other" sources of the same featherweight veracity and integrity.

 

Quote

I posted  the second one with the clear and stated intention of getting Biden’s direct quote shortly after Trump announced the travel restrictions in the discussion. You are the guy who watches a complete speech and then goes over to CNN so they can explain to you what you just saw and heard. It is really sad. You are allowing yourself to be manipulated by the media as opposed to believing in your own reasoning ability. I feel sorry for you. 

No, unlike you, I not only look at a speech or a clip of a speech, or tweet, or a quote - I find out what it was in response to.  I follow the back and forth between them.  I look at the entire context rather than just stop at whatever I can use to puff up some inane, weak point on a message board.  I look at sources across the spectrum, not just the wingnut ones that back my pet theories.

I'm trying to nudge you in a better direction for arguing your points, not change your political views.  We could actually use some serious, thoughtful conservative voices around here as they are in pathetically short supply. You can either take those suggestions to heart and be a worthwhile participant here or you can leave.  That's not my end goal as I'd like to have the aforementioned worthwhile conservatives participating more and the vapid Trump-zombies posting a lot less.  You choose.

We have a smack forum for throwaway, drive-by lazy stuff.  This ain't that.

[homersapien 11,440]

18 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

Not if you quote the complete sentence instead of trying to make something out of nothing. What a piss poor attitude! Relax. Have fun.

I quoted the complete sentence earlier, here's your entire quote:

"I think Trump will get a vaccine out there as fast or faster than anybody else and he has done a great job of setting up a network to get folks vaccinated. Yes, I do think it will go away in time."

Your exact words.  Now spin that.

You sound like someone talking about their "Dear Leader". 

[homersapien 11,440]

17 hours ago, Leftfield said:

......I would also ask, do you not find the timing of this announcement even a little convenient? Telling the country that he's asked the states to be ready for a vaccine that will just happen to be released right around election day? Do you allow any chance at all that it was politically motivated?

Dear Leader would never do such a thing based on politics. He loves us. 

(Well, some of us.)

[homersapien 11,440]

Since we're talking about Trump's politically motivated and reckless promises, here's some real consequences that might happen:

 

How Trump’s win-at-all-costs vaccine strategy could backfire

Rushing out a vaccine without solid proof it works could lead many people to refuse to take it, public health experts warn.

President Donald Trump’s blunt demands that the Food and Drug Administration speed the approval of coronavirus vaccines — before it's clear whether any now in development are effective — threaten to undermine the country’s best hope for ending the pandemic.

Rushing out a vaccine without solid proof it works could lead many people to refuse to take it, public health experts warn. Worse still would be cutting corners to distribute a shot that then turns out not to work, leaving people unknowingly vulnerable to the deadly virus.

Either scenario could lead to large numbers of Americans losing faith in vaccines at a crucial moment. Most public health experts see mass immunization as the most powerful tool to defeat the coronavirus. But many also predict that the first vaccines to win approval won’t be perfect — they might provide only partial or short-lived protection. In that case, several rounds of vaccination could be needed to end the pandemic.

That could only happen if the public trusts scientists and health officials.

“If a vaccine isn’t trusted, it’s not going to be used. And if it’s not used, it’s not effective,” said John P. Moore, a vaccine expert at Weill Cornell Medicine who has worked for years on developing an HIV shot. “[Trump is] completely missing the point — the point is that the FDA exists to give the public confidence that the product they are being asked to take is safe and effective.”

The president has made vaccine development the center of his coronavirus response, repeatedly promising a vaccine by the end of the year. His administration has spent billions to help companies test and manufacture their shots, even as it brushed aside calls for a national approach to testing, contact tracing and other time-honored public health tools.

Concerns about a so-called October Surprise, or Trump declaring vaccine victory weeks ahead of the upcoming presidential election, have percolated for months as he alternately downplays the pandemic and assures the public it will soon be resolved. But his recent attacks on the agency — accusing scientists of slow-walking coronavirus vaccines and drugs to harm his reelection campaign — and open calls to authorize emergency use of convalescent plasma despite thin evidence have kicked those fears into overdrive.

“Any time the president says things that are saying that the FDA is not doing things correctly, that is going to hurt the whole process, that is going to hurt confidence in a vaccine,” said Melanie Kornides, a vaccine hesitancy expert at University of Pennsylvania School of Nursing who specifically studies social medial conversations around shots. “Even if he is saying they are doing it too slowly, it is implying that they are doing things wrong.”

It’s affecting people on both ends of the political spectrum, says Kornides. “The common thread is that people will say in these comments that they are not anti-vax, they would normally get vaccinated, but given these political maneuverings, they don’t feel comfortable with this particular vaccine.”

Polls show that a significant chunk of Americans are already wary of any future vaccine. POLITICO/Morning Consult surveys this month found that nearly a fifth of American were hesitant to take a Covid-19 shot and just 14 percent would be more likely to take one that Trump recommended. Vaccine confidence is even lower among communities of color: A little over half Black Americans say they would probably or definitely get a vaccine, according to Pew.

That sobering poll data motivated more than 400 scientists — Moore among them — who wrote to Hahn this month calling on the agency to be transparent in vaccine reviews and keep politics out.

The White House and Health and Human Services have denied that politics will play any role in a vaccine approval.

“Data is driving the development of all COVID-19 countermeasures. Careless talk about career F.D.A. experts somehow approving an unsafe and ineffective vaccine just for politics only undermines confidence in the public health system,” HHS spokesperson Michael Caputo said in a statement. The push to develop a vaccine quickly “has nothing to do with politics,” a White House spokesperson told POLITICO last week.

The nuance of working vaccines is lost on the press briefing stage, where Trump appeared without administration scientists for weeks before Hahn accompanied him Sunday to tout convalescent plasma. While the therapy is considered safe, plasma has not yet been proven effective against the coronavirus. The president said otherwise; Hahn did not correct him. The authorization was based on anecdotal data from a 70,000-person program run by the Mayo Clinic.

In that press briefing, Hahn also overstated the benefits of plasma, saying it would result in far more lives saved than the data indicated. The comments, which drew wide rebuke from the medical community, were also amplified on Twitter by numerous administration officials, including spokespeople for the FDA, HHS and Vice President Mike Pence.

More than 24 hours later, Hahn on late Monday night issued a mea culpa on Twitter, saying criticism of his statements on plasma’s benefits "is entirely justified."

"I thought it was really important for the American people and the agency, the FDA, to correct that record," Hahn told POLITICO. “We’re going to make our decisions based on data and science ... As we get more data, if we have to change the EUA, we will change it."

Accurately communicating the flaws, as well as the benefits, of any vaccine will be crucial — especially since the first shot to market isn’t likely to be a silver bullet.

Realistically, “the first ones are going to be helpful but not slam dunks,” said Mark McClellan, who led FDA under President George W. Bush. “We could be in a situation where people are considering — which has never happened before — ‘Should I take this vaccine now or should I wait two months [for another one]?’”

There is the distinct possibility that the first batch of vaccines will lessen the chance of severe illness but not eliminate the risk entirely, much like the annual flu shot. That will not become clear until drugmakers conclude the mass phase 3 trials currently underway — studies that enroll 30,000 people apiece and determine how effective a shot can be.

“It’s not only important to show what we know, it’s important to show what we don’t know,” said Syra Madad, a fellow at Harvard and expert on the Federation of American Scientists’ Covid-19 task force.

It is equally important, health experts agree, to communicate progress and health advisories through non-political channels.

“Trust is so important,” said Madad. “Something as simple as a behavioral change — like [having] everyone wear a mask — if you politicize something that is coming out from a politician versus someone with a science background, … that makes a huge difference.”

Companies themselves are looking to quell unrealistic expectations. British drugmaker AstraZeneca, which is working on a candidate with Oxford University, refuted reports Monday that the Trump administration is considering fast-tracking the vaccine before the election.

“It would be premature to speculate on that possibility,” the pharmaceutical company said in a statement. Like others, AstraZeneca’s shot is in the sweeping last stage of trials known as phase 3. But the company is still enrolling the 30,000 people needed for those studies, which only began in June.

The availability of a vaccine also does not mean a quick return to normalcy, said McClellan. “But if enough people like you take the vaccine and we see cases really start going away, then we can really think about more changes in what you are doing day-to-day.”

The availability of a Covid-19 vaccine this year is one bullet point on a short list of goals for the Trump reelection campaign. As the president’s campaign heads into the Republican National Convention this week, experts are raising alarms that the political rhetoric will only increase.

“You just can’t get the politics out of this, and once you get the politics into this, you are turning off a substantial fraction of the American public over lack of trust,” Moore said.

Dan Diamond contributed to this report.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/24/coronavirus-vaccine-will-it-work-401190