Now a coin flip

[Leftfield 2,653]

48 minutes ago, ToraGirl said:

I have listened and dialogued with countless on this site from "the other" side...in a cordial, positive way...especially when there was nothing going on of note on the football boards.  It's been pretty easy to find SOME points of agreement at times.  However, and this isn't aimed directly at you (I've just hit the ignore on the others) name-calling has lost my ear and dilutes your case for truth as you see it.  Love to you, Homer, but your (and other) messages are getting lost whether you're just stating your position, seeking converts, or just trying to have a decent go-between.  

On this we agree. I understand that emotions run high in debates like this, as everyone feels much is at stake, but stepping it up to personal attacks due to differing political views will not help either side. 

[johnnyAU 3,645]

It seems some almost always end up resorting to name calling and personal attacks. I'm not naming names. They know who they are. 

[AUDynasty 585]

5 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

I don't think what Trump said is a big deal and it doesn't surprise me in the least as it has been clear from the outset this was/is his strategy as it relates to this pandemic.  I don't blame those seeking to defeat him for trying to make a big deal out of it.  I'm not defending Trump as he said what he said.  I just don't think it is a big deal. Let's be real....I'd probably mention it if Obama had said it or if Biden had said it and you'd probably say it wasn't that big of a deal.  

😂😂😂😂😂

I care about principle. I care about honesty. If a Democrat said that you bet I'll be on his ass. But I don't need to tell you that to show it. And it would appear you get cues from the Big Orange himself.

[SocialCircle 570]

19 minutes ago, AUDynasty said:

😂😂😂😂😂

I care about principle. I care about honesty. If a Democrat said that you bet I'll be on his ass. But I don't need to tell you that to show it. And it would appear you get cues from the Big Orange himself.

There are things I consider a big deal, but being optimistic or not coming out with your hair on fire as it relates to the pandemic isn’t one of them. History shows Trump would be attacked no matter how he handled this as evidenced by the outcry on the travel ban. You can’t cry wolf everyday and expect me to listen.
 

The biggest failure by far in the US falls on the governors in the NE that put elderly people who they knew had Covid-19 back in those facilities. If you want any credibility from  me and want me to believe your attacks on Trump aren’t just political, then first condemn their incompetence and stupidity. 

[AUEngineer2016 407]

27 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

There are things I consider a big deal, but being optimistic or not coming out with your hair on fire as it relates to the pandemic isn’t one of them. History shows Trump would be attacked no matter how he handled this as evidenced by the outcry on the travel ban. You can’t cry wolf everyday and expect me to listen.
 

The biggest failure by far in the US falls on the governors in the NE that put elderly people who they knew had Covid-19 back in those facilities. If you want any credibility from  me and want me to believe your attacks on Trump aren’t just political, then first condemn their incompetence and stupidity. 

How do you reconcile the Woodward tapes from Early February where Trump recognizes that COVID was going to be (in his own words), "It's also more deadly than even your strenuous flus" while 18 days later, telling the public "I think that's a problem that’s going to go away"? 

[ToraGirl 5,498]

1 minute ago, AUEngineer2016 said:

How do you reconcile the Woodward tapes from Early February where Trump recognizes that COVID was going to be (in his own words), "It's also more deadly than even your strenuous flus" while 18 days later, telling the public "I think that's a problem that’s going to go away"? 

Same way every leader deals with an unprecedented and unknown pandemic...wait, what?

Same for 9/11.  We were supposed to have seen planes as weapons.  We were supposed to have known that when the perps trained on US soil that they would not use that training to try to harm us. 

When you are a leader, you can NEVER win.  It's too much info.  It's not enough.  And somehow we would each have done better/been better.  It's also true that we give grace to leaders if they are espousing our platform.  Point of view is everything.  The situation was flipped in the last 8 years.  It's the way of it.

Hindsight is 20/20.  NONE of us likes the way anything has unfolded, from the top down.  None of us could ever predicted 2020 would look the way it has turned out to be.  Still, there is so much good....in the little, day-to-day stories.  Massive shifting and sifting going on.  

There is so much blame to go around.  I prefer to look at all that's been accomplished despite...typically at ground level, grass roots.  

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

6 minutes ago, ToraGirl said:

Same way every leader deals with an unprecedented and unknown pandemic...wait, what?

Same for 9/11.  We were supposed to have seen planes as weapons.  We were supposed to have known that when the perps trained on US soil that they would not use that training to try to harm us. 

When you are a leader, you can NEVER win.  It's too much info.  It's not enough.  And somehow we would each have done better/been better.  It's also true that we give grace to leaders if they are espousing our platform.  Point of view is everything.  The situation was flipped in the last 8 years.  It's the way of it.

Hindsight is 20/20.  NONE of us likes the way anything has unfolded, from the top down.  None of us could ever predicted 2020 would look the way it has turned out to be.  Still, there is so much good....in the little, day-to-day stories.  Massive shifting and sifting going on.  

There is so much blame to go around.  I prefer to look at all that's been accomplished despite...typically at ground level, grass roots.  

This is an amazing, superfluous dodge of the question. 

He's not asking about foresight of the pandemic here.  He's asking how do you reconcile the President knowing what is happening and then just days later, lying to the American public about it? 

9/11 isn't remote comparable.

[SocialCircle 570]

22 minutes ago, AUEngineer2016 said:

How do you reconcile the Woodward tapes from Early February where Trump recognizes that COVID was going to be (in his own words), "It's also more deadly than even your strenuous flus" while 18 days later, telling the public "I think that's a problem that’s going to go away"? 

You really don’t think Covid-19 will go away in time? 

[AUEngineer2016 407]

54 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

You really don’t think Covid-19 will go away in time? 

Not without a ton of hard work to create, verify, and distribute a vaccine. 

Not without people wearing masks and socially distancing.

Not without sacrifices by people to help protect themselves and their fellow citizens.

 

Trump's exact words were "One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear". Do you really think that's true? Do you really think that "like a miracle", one day people will just stop getting COVID? 

[AUEngineer2016 407]

1 hour ago, ToraGirl said:

Same way every leader deals with an unprecedented and unknown pandemic...wait, what?

Same for 9/11.  We were supposed to have seen planes as weapons.  We were supposed to have known that when the perps trained on US soil that they would not use that training to try to harm us. 

When you are a leader, you can NEVER win.  It's too much info.  It's not enough.  And somehow we would each have done better/been better.  It's also true that we give grace to leaders if they are espousing our platform.  Point of view is everything.  The situation was flipped in the last 8 years.  It's the way of it.

Hindsight is 20/20.  NONE of us likes the way anything has unfolded, from the top down.  None of us could ever predicted 2020 would look the way it has turned out to be.  Still, there is so much good....in the little, day-to-day stories.  Massive shifting and sifting going on.  

There is so much blame to go around.  I prefer to look at all that's been accomplished despite...typically at ground level, grass roots.  

I don't think you're understanding me correctly.

This is like Bush knowing 9/11 was coming and doing nothing.

This is like FDR knowing Pearl Harbor was about to happen, and doing nothing.

Trump knew. By his own admission, he knew this had the potential to be bad. Yet, rather than taking necessary precautions to protect the American people, he denied it was even a problem. Over, and over, and over again.

February 25, 18 days after tapes: “I think that's a problem that’s going to go away… They have studied it. They know very much. In fact, we’re very close to a vaccine.”

Side note, the "we're very close to a vaccine" is pretty clearly BS given that 7 months after the statement, all vaccines are still in trials.

February 26, 19 days after tapes.: “The 15 (cases in the US) within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero.”

February 27, 20 days after tapes: “One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”

March 2, 23 days after tapes: “You take a solid flu vaccine, you don't think that could have an impact, or much of an impact, on corona?”

 

Time after time after time, Trump has lied to the American people. He's, by his own admission, downplayed the virus. A virus that has killed as many people as 9/11 did for every single day for 2 months straight. I'll ask again, how do you reconcile him knowing and downplaying the virus?

[SocialCircle 570]

8 minutes ago, AUEngineer2016 said:

Not without a ton of hard work to create, verify, and distribute a vaccine. 

Not without people wearing masks and socially distancing.

Not without sacrifices by people to help protect themselves and their fellow citizens.

 

Trump's exact words were "One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear". Do you really think that's true? Do you really think that "like a miracle", one day people will just stop getting COVID? 

I think Trump will get a vaccine out there as fast or faster than anybody else and he has done a great job of setting up a network to get folks vaccinated. Yes, I do think it will go away in time. 

[SocialCircle 570]

1 minute ago, AUEngineer2016 said:

I don't think you're understanding me correctly.

This is like Bush knowing 9/11 was coming and doing nothing.

This is like FDR knowing Pearl Harbor was about to happen, and doing nothing.

Trump knew. By his own admission, he knew this had the potential to be bad. Yet, rather than taking necessary precautions to protect the American people, he denied it was even a problem. Over, and over, and over again.

February 25, 18 days after tapes: “I think that's a problem that’s going to go away… They have studied it. They know very much. In fact, we’re very close to a vaccine.”

Side note, the "we're very close to a vaccine" is pretty clearly BS given that 7 months after the statement, all vaccines are still in trials.

February 26, 19 days after tapes.: “The 15 (cases in the US) within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero.”

February 27, 20 days after tapes: “One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”

March 2, 23 days after tapes: “You take a solid flu vaccine, you don't think that could have an impact, or much of an impact, on corona?”

 

Time after time after time, Trump has lied to the American people. He's, by his own admission, downplayed the virus. A virus that has killed as many people as 9/11 did for every single day for 2 months straight. I'll ask again, how do you reconcile him knowing and downplaying the virus?

Trump absolutely took unprecedented actions. 

[AUEngineer2016 407]

Just now, SocialCircle said:

Trump absolutely took unprecedented actions. 

Such as?

2 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I think Trump will get a vaccine out there as fast or faster than anybody else and he has done a great job of setting up a network to get folks vaccinated. Yes, I do think it will go away in time. 

Based on what evidence? By all accounts, the U.S. stumbled out of the gates on Testing, especially when you compare us to places like South Korea, where they had drive-thru testing with results in 15 minutes as early as March. Source: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/13/815441078/south-koreas-drive-through-testing-for-coronavirus-is-fast-and-free

What network has he set up? What exactly has he done to "get folks vaccinated"?

When you say "I do think it will go away in time", what parameters are you accounting for here? Are you saying the virus will just disappear without a vaccine? Or are you taking the purely-natural approach, aka no human intervention needed, it'll just disappear?

[Leftfield 2,653]

9 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Trump absolutely took unprecedented actions. 

Because there has been a huge number of global pandemics for precedents to be set, right?

[SocialCircle 570]

8 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Because there has been a huge number of global pandemics for precedents to be set, right?

It isn’t even debatable so please just stop. 

[Leftfield 2,653]

1 minute ago, SocialCircle said:

It isn’t even debatable so please just stop. 

And yet, I'm debating it.

[SocialCircle 570]

14 minutes ago, AUEngineer2016 said:

Such as?

Based on what evidence? By all accounts, the U.S. stumbled out of the gates on Testing, especially when you compare us to places like South Korea, where they had drive-thru testing with results in 15 minutes as early as March. Source: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/13/815441078/south-koreas-drive-through-testing-for-coronavirus-is-fast-and-free

What network has he set up? What exactly has he done to "get folks vaccinated"?

When you say "I do think it will go away in time", what parameters are you accounting for here? Are you saying the virus will just disappear without a vaccine? Or are you taking the purely-natural approach, aka no human intervention needed, it'll just disappear?

Google is your friend. This administration has taken many, many steps to not only fast track a vaccine, but also to get it out to the public once it is available. 
Yes, I believe in time this virus will go away. No need to set parameters as to how or why. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

35 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Google is your friend. This administration has taken many, many steps to not only fast track a vaccine, but also to get it out to the public once it is available. 
Yes, I believe in time this virus will go away. No need to set parameters as to how or why. 

This seems appropriate

 

[bigbird 60,580]

9 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

This is an amazing, superfluous dodge of the question. 

He's not asking about foresight of the pandemic here.  He's asking how do you reconcile the President knowing what is happening and then just days later, lying to the American public about it? 

9/11 isn't remote comparable.

Balance between fear/panic vs strength/resolve? I really don't know.

I wouldn't mind him saying such...if he had followed it up with a more efficient and effective strategy to combat the problem. Any strategy proposed was going to be met with consternation and pushback. Some because of the unknown and some because of Trump. No matter the strategy, they failed in the implementation.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 hour ago, bigbird said:

Balance between fear/panic vs strength/resolve? I really don't know.

I wouldn't mind him saying such...if he had followed it up with a more efficient and effective strategy to combat the problem. Any strategy proposed was going to be met with consternation and pushback. Some because of the unknown and some because of Trump. No matter the strategy, they failed in the implementation.

For me, there's just too many examples throughout history of revered leaders being honest with their country in tough times to let this one go.  FDR, Churchill, Lincoln, etc.  All of these men laid bare the facts, but also had an uplifting message of overcoming whatever enemy they faced (economic or military).  I actually think Trump could have ensured himself re-election if he had done this.  Instead of treating us like adults, he chose to be a cheerleader in chief.

Other thing is this.  By Trump "downplaying" the virus, he essentially did not give Americans the tools needed to make informed decisions about their own health.  Even now, his rhetoric is so strong against things like mask wearing that you see things like his rally last night.  And if anyone thinks he's changed on that front, note that his campaign kicked a reporter out of the rally last night for simply tweeting a pic and commenting that people were not social distancing or wearing masks.

End of the day, he knew and he didn't inform us.  Worse yet, he misinformed.  This isn't some national security threat or classified information we're talking about here.  It's our health.

[johnnyAU 3,645]

6 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

By Trump "downplaying" the virus, he essentially did not give Americans the tools needed to make informed decisions about their own health.

Most Americans don't use the POTUS (whoever it may be at the time) as a resource to make informed decisions about their own health. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 hours ago, bigbird said:

Balance between fear/panic vs strength/resolve?

In no universe can anyone rationally believe that preventing panic was a driving force behind trump's decision to withhold that information, unless said panic was related directly to the stock market or his reelection. Again, the bulk of his current campaign is intentionally trying to create panic over riots in a handful of cities. A significant part of his previous campaign was intentionally trying to create panic over immigrants at the southern border. Even his one proactive measure, limiting travel from China, fed into a panic that "the Chinese flu" was coming. Panic is an asset to him. 

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

6 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

Most Americans don't use the POTUS (whoever it may be at the time) as a resource to make informed decisions about their own health. 

You're seriously trying to absolve the President of the United States of America of responsibility here? 

Yikes. 

[johnnyAU 3,645]

Just now, McLoofus said:

You're seriously trying to absolve the President of the United States of America of responsibility here? 

Yikes. 

No.  It's just a ridiculous premise to believe Americans didn't (or don't) have the tools to make "informed decisions about their own health" with or without words of a POTUS. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

4 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

No.  It's just a ridiculous premise to believe Americans didn't (or don't) have the tools to make "informed decisions about their own health" with or without words of a POTUS. 

You think it's just words? You don't think his (in)actions have anything to do with this?

What do you think his job is?

If you are this dismissive of the role of POTUS, then I'm really puzzled why you piss and moan so much about Biden.