Now a coin flip

[Leftfield 2,652]

1 minute ago, johnnyAU said:

No.  It's just a ridiculous premise to believe Americans didn't (or don't) have the tools to make "informed decisions about their own health" with or without words of a POTUS. 

Having the tools is one thing. Using them is quite another.

Is it your position that if Trump had urged everyone to wear masks, that wouldn't have had any effect whatsoever on how many people actually wear them? Or for that matter, ridicule people who do wear them? Peer pressure is a real thing that causes many poor decisions, even in adults. Trump knows this. He would be completely ineffectual without it.

[SocialCircle 570]

5 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Having the tools is one thing. Using them is quite another.

Is it your position that if Trump had urged everyone to wear masks, that wouldn't have had any effect whatsoever on how many people actually wear them? Or for that matter, ridicule people who do wear them? Peer pressure is a real thing that causes many poor decisions, even in adults. Trump knows this. He would be completely ineffectual without it.

I do think encouraging mask wearing is one of the things Trump should have done better. 
 

I think the biggest mistake on masks was made by Fauci though. He should never have said not to wear a mask as he created a great deal of doubt about his credibility when he then came back and said to wear them. 

[johnnyAU 3,645]

Just now, Leftfield said:

Having the tools is one thing. Using them is quite another.

Is it your position that if Trump had urged everyone to wear masks, that wouldn't have had any effect whatsoever on how many people actually wear them? Or for that matter, ridicule people who do wear them? Peer pressure is a real thing that causes many poor decisions, even in adults. Trump knows this. He would be completely ineffectual without it.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. He didn't quarantine the immune-compromised elderly in the seething COVID incubating cauldrons like Cuomo. They had no choices. 

Nobody is defending Trump's words or actions. He could have done things much better.  He also could have done much worse. He should most often keep his pie hole and his keyboard quiet, but to say Americans solely look to him (or any POTUS) as a reliable source for personal health decisions in this age of almost inexhaustible information and resources is laughable. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Having the tools is one thing. Using them is quite another.

Is it your position that if Trump had urged everyone to wear masks, that wouldn't have had any effect whatsoever on how many people actually wear them? Or for that matter, ridicule people who do wear them? Peer pressure is a real thing that causes many poor decisions, even in adults. Trump knows this. He would be completely ineffectual without it.

Basic, time-tested strategy. Give a "face" to an "enemy" and focus their attention on that. 

Like I said months ago, if this virus had a brown face, everyone would be wearing red, white and blue hazmat suits. Look back at the shoe thing in airports post-9/11. Not a *peep* of protest about that. Because one dude failed to blow up one plane. "Ban" travel from China? Hoorah! Leadership! That Wuhan Virus and Kung Flu crap still works on some of these people.

But now there's a virus ravaging the country and we can't defeat it by blowing it up or throwing it in cages or building a wall or discontinuing certain flights? Um... don't wear a mask to own the Libs, I guess? 

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 minute ago, johnnyAU said:

to say Americans solely look to him (or any POTUS) as a reliable source for personal health decisions in this age of almost inexhaustible information and resources is laughable. 

That is laughable, but I'm curious who said that? 

[Leftfield 2,652]

4 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. He didn't quarantine the immune-compromised elderly in the seething COVID incubating cauldrons like Cuomo. They had no choices. 

Nobody is defending Trump's words or actions. He could have done things much better.  He also could have done much worse. He should most often keep his pie hole and his keyboard quiet, but to say Americans solely look to him (or any POTUS) as a reliable source for personal health decisions in this age of almost inexhaustible information and resources is laughable. 

I never said Americans solely look to him. You're putting words in my mouth. You also didn't answer my question.

[Leftfield 2,652]

6 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I think the biggest mistake on masks was made by Fauci though. He should never have said not to wear a mask as he created a great deal of doubt about his credibility when he then came back and said to wear them. 

This has become such a tired argument. As has been pointed out repeatedly, Fauci made a statement based on the information he had at the time. He also clearly stated he reserved the right to change his recommendations if additional information supported it. The evidence changed, so his recommendation changed. That's how informed decision-making works.

[johnnyAU 3,645]

Just now, Leftfield said:

I never said Americans solely look to him. You're putting words in my mouth. You also didn't answer my question.

"By Trump "downplaying" the virus, he essentially did not give Americans the tools needed to make informed decisions about their own health."

I'm not doing that at all. These aren't your words I'm referencing. 

6 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

Is it your position that if Trump had urged everyone to wear masks, that wouldn't have had any effect whatsoever on how many people actually wear them?

No it isn't. Can you tell me exactly how many people that would have affected? Can you tell me how many out of those it would have or have not benefited? It's a stupid question. I already said he could have done things in a better manner. My comments aren't about Trump, they are about the individual responsibility of the people. 

[Leftfield 2,652]

2 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

No it isn't. Can you tell me exactly how many people that would have affected? Can you tell me how many out of those it would have or have not benefited? It's a stupid question. I already said he could have done things in a better manner. My comments aren't about Trump, they are about the individual responsibility of the people. 

Of course I can't answer that. That doesn't make it a stupid question. If urging people to wear masks had saved even one life, wouldn't that be enough to say he should have been honest with people?

And just because individuals are responsible for themselves doesn't mean they will act responsibly.

[McLoofus 35,182]

9 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

"By Trump "downplaying" the virus, he essentially did not give Americans the tools needed to make informed decisions about their own health."

I'm not doing that at all. These aren't your words I'm referencing. 

No it isn't. Can you tell me exactly how many people that would have affected? Can you tell me how many out of those it would have or have not benefited? It's a stupid question. I already said he could have done things in a better manner. My comments aren't about Trump, they are about the individual responsibility of the people. 

You're weaseling. You're better than this.

[Mikey 16,718]

23 hours ago, homersapien said:

And piling on any given governor just underlines the fact we never had a coordinated Federal effort to address the pandemic nationally.  Still don't for that matter.

What LEGAL federal effort do you suggest? Our constitution leaves those powers up to the several states. The Trump administration made auxiliary hospitals available, fast-tracked the production of the personal equipment the previous administration had failed to rotate and had daily TV briefings with health experts. Measures such as travel bans were instituted while the Democrats were saying such measures were unnecessary and xenophobic. Again, what were the measures Democrats suggested back in February? President Trump was taking action while the WHO was still telling the world that this virus was not contagious, person to person.

23 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

It's not a slanted book that's at issue here, Mikey.  There are literally RECORDINGS of Trump's own words in response to questions.  No interpretations needed.

You'd think this was something similar to "I didn't have sex with that woman." He downplayed the danger while implementing safety measures. If opponents want to get their panties in a wad over this, so be it.

Maybe if the Dems had been paying attention to things other that the Russia Hoax and the Impeachment Farce the virus situation would have been handled more smoothly. As it was, they were so wrapped up in their follies that nothing was done legislatively and Trump had to go it alone while one hand was guarding his back.

The opposition had nothing to offer with regard to the virus back then and now all they have is  Monday morning quarterbacking.

In summary, I don't see anything reported from that book that's worthy of concern. Just another politically timed hit piece.

[johnnyAU 3,645]

Just now, McLoofus said:

You're weaseling. You're better than this.

No, it's just a stupid premise.  Really, Americans couldn't make decisions about their own personal health because of the words of the POTUS, when we've been surrounded by 24-7 COVID news, articles and information for the past 10 months? There are daily, if not hourly graphs on testing rates, death rates, by region, state, county, etc....Who takes their health information from the WH in the first place? 

Sure, he hasn't done a stellar job on the information front, but that's been true for 4 years. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

5 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

No, it's just a stupid premise.  Really, Americans couldn't make decisions about their own personal health because of the words of the POTUS, when we've been surrounded by 24-7 COVID news, articles and information for the past 10 months?

Except that's nobody's premise.

You're weaseling.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 hour ago, johnnyAU said:

Most Americans don't use the POTUS (whoever it may be at the time) as a resource to make informed decisions about their own health. 

Under normal circumstances, sure.  But we're not talking about cancer screenings, heart health, etc here.  It's a global pandemic the likes none of us have ever lived through.  This is not an acute problem that only affects each individual American.  And because of that, POTUS's words do matter more.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Also, it's a little wild that we're still talking about this as though it's just words from one guy and that Americans have been presented with good options through all this. As though 200,000 dead people all just made poor decisions about their own health.

[SuperAUsome09 738]

48 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

And just because individuals are responsible for themselves doesn't mean they will act responsibly.

Similar to how you can state facts that "It is very dangerous to text and drive." People hear but they don't listen. Then they clip a 6 year old in the neighborhood responding "I'm on the way." Well now it's too late to say "I should have listened to the facts." 

 

So @johnnyAU, individuals may not listen to advice from governing powers, but sometimes personal judgment can be just as dangerous to oneself or others.

[McLoofus 35,182]

I mean, we get from here to "why even have a judicial branch or law enforcement when people can just educate themselves about what's right or wrong on the internet and make their own decisions" pretty quickly. 

[SocialCircle 570]

1 hour ago, Leftfield said:

This has become such a tired argument. As has been pointed out repeatedly, Fauci made a statement based on the information he had at the time. He also clearly stated he reserved the right to change his recommendations if additional information supported it. The evidence changed, so his recommendation changed. That's how informed decision-making works.

No, he misled the public as to the reason not to wear a mask.  The science absolutely never changed. What is tired is all of the excuses and pointing fingers only at Trump when there is plenty of blame to go around. Biden should also be slammed for blasting the travel ban for example. 

[TitanTiger 20,510]

7 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

No, he misled the public as to the reason not to wear a mask.  The science absolutely never changed. What is tired is all of the excuses and pointing fingers only at Trump when there is plenty of blame to go around. Biden should also be slammed for blasting the travel ban for example. 

Except Biden didn't "blast" the travel ban:

Quote

Trump charged without evidence or elaboration that if he had listened to Biden, “hundreds of thousands of additional lives would have been lost.” We asked the White House what he was referring to, but it provided no response, nor did the Trump campaign.

It seems likely the president was referring to the travel restrictions, since he said that Biden “opposed my very strict travel ban.” In fact, Biden took no position on the China restrictions when they were implemented.

On March 12, Biden tweeted:

As we have written, Biden’s campaign said on April 3 that Biden backed Trump’s decision to impose travel restrictions on China.

“Joe Biden supports travel bans that are guided by medical experts, advocated by public health officials, and backed by a full strategy,” Kate Bedingfield, Biden’s deputy campaign manager, told CNN. “Science supported this ban, therefore he did too.”

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/07/trumps-misleading-comments-on-biden-and-the-coronavirus/

It was a rather mild critique of Trump's travel restrictions (it wasn't a ban by any objective measure of the term) in the broader context of the lack of a comprehensive plan from the WH.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Some clarifications about that "ban", by the way.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/

 

[Leftfield 2,652]

5 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

No, he misled the public as to the reason not to wear a mask.  The science absolutely never changed. What is tired is all of the excuses and pointing fingers only at Trump when there is plenty of blame to go around. Biden should also be slammed for blasting the travel ban for example. 

I love the way you state that perhaps the most respected doctor in the country misled the public, while saying Trump was simply trying to avoid a panic. No hypocrisy there at all, right? Please present your proof that Fauci misled the public.

The science didn't change. The knowledge did. Our medical community was not aware early on how easily the virus spread, nor how early people were contagious, nor how many were contagious while being asymptomatic. Once they found out, they recommended wearing masks, among other measures. 

Stop with the straw man argument about Biden. I never defended Biden. I actually agree he should not have said anything about the travel ban. We aren't talking about Biden, nor anyone else but Trump. The indisputable fact is Trump was telling the American public information he knew not to be true. That would be called a lie.

You've already admitted you're being intellectually dishonest in your assessment of Trump. No need to double-down.

[johnnyAU 3,645]

16 minutes ago, SuperAUsome09 said:

Similar to how you can state facts that "It is very dangerous to text and drive." People hear but they don't listen. Then they clip a 6 year old in the neighborhood responding "I'm on the way." Well now it's too late to say "I should have listened to the facts." 

 

So @johnnyAU, individuals may not listen to advice from governing powers, but sometimes personal judgment can be just as dangerous to oneself or others.

I never said anything of the sort. My point was the ridiculous assumption that Americans don't have the tools to make "informed decisions about their personal health" without the words of the POTUS.  It's not the same as a mandate, or in most states the law, regarding texting and driving. 

[SocialCircle 570]

12 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Except Biden didn't "blast" the travel ban.

 

It was a rather mild critique of Trump's travel restrictions (it wasn't a ban by any objective measure of the term).

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/03/20/nolte-mere-8-days-ago-joe-biden-still-attacking-trumps-travel-bans/

[McLoofus 35,182]

5 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

The science didn't change. The knowledge did.

Side note. This distinction and the underlying process probably confuse a lot of people. Just one reason why we need good leadership. 

[TitanTiger 20,510]

9 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/03/20/nolte-mere-8-days-ago-joe-biden-still-attacking-trumps-travel-bans/

There are right or left leaning sources and then there are worthlessly biased ones.  Breitbart is as unreliable and slanted as they come without being a complete farce.  Even Media Bias Factcheck rates them not as just "right biased" but as "questionable source":

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/breitbart/

 

Case in point, from the article you link, they conflate Biden's criticism of Trump banning travel from certain Muslim countries with Trump's weak travel restrictions pertaining to China and the coronavirus.  They link to his statement but then selectively quote it to make it sound like he was talking about coronavirus stuff when he was again talking about travel bans targeting people of a certain religion:

Quote

 

Yesterday, Donald Trump further diminished the United States in the eyes of the world by expanding his travel ban, placing new restrictions on the residents of six more nations that limit who is allowed to come to the United States.

Three years ago, he took aim at Muslim-majority nations. This time, he targeted primarily African nations — including Nigeria, the largest economy and the most populous nation on the continent, and Sudan, a country striving to transition to civilian rule after decades of dictatorship. The “Muslim Ban,” this new “African Ban,” Trump’s atrocious asylum and refugee policies — they are all designed to make it harder for black and brown people to immigrate to the United States. It’s that simple. They are racist. They are xenophobic...

https://medium.com/@JoeBiden/statement-from-vice-president-joe-biden-on-donald-trumps-expanded-travel-ban-17ac0ee039b9

 

I already gave you a link to a credible source that strives to be balanced and objective when evaluating claims and doing fact checking.  If Breitbart is going to shade a story this badly when you can easily click through the links to see they are misrepresenting what's said, what do you think they do when finding the truth is harder?