Now a coin flip

[SocialCircle 570]

4 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

No, I asked you to find better sources, not just "other" sources of the same featherweight veracity and integrity.

 

No, unlike you, I not only look at a speech or a clip of a speech, or tweet, or a quote - I find out what it was in response to.  I follow the back and forth between them.  I look at the entire context rather than just stop at whatever I can use to puff up some inane, weak point on a message board.  I look at sources across the spectrum, not just the wingnut ones that back my pet theories.

I'm trying to nudge you in a better direction for arguing your points, not change your political views.  We could actually use some serious, thoughtful conservative voices around here as they are in pathetically short supply. You can either take those suggestions to heart and be a worthwhile participant here or you can leave.  That's not my end goal as I'd like to have the aforementioned worthwhile conservatives participating more and the vapid Trump-zombies posting a lot less.  You choose.

We have a smack forum for throwaway, drive-by lazy stuff.  This ain't that.

I also look at the context and the back and forth. What I don’t typically do is allow the media to influence what is clear to me after seeing and hearing with my own ears and eyes. You do know two people can witness the same back and forth and come to different conclusions. Based on Biden’s comments and the timing of them combined with his history and the history of the entire D party as it relates to travel restrictions I arrive at a different place than you. We clearly aren’t going to change each other’s mind on this issue and forever I’ll believe my conclusion is correct as will you. 

[homersapien 11,386]

22 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

What you just posted that follows is impossible for anyone to know. "Trump is doing nothing to produce a vaccine quicker than would not have been done without him." We can agree to disagree. 

So you really believe professional scientists - which includes the regulators - really need Trump to instill a sense of urgency in their work when about 200,000 Americans have already died?  

They planned to drag their feet until Trump lit a fire under them? 

The POTUS - at least the ones who respect science - understand that all they can do is facilitate if necessary but otherwise cheer the effort. 

Until you can provide us specific examples of where Trump has actually facilitated the effort in such a way that wouldn't have happened without him, you are just willfully swallowing Trump's propaganda. 

It's what Dear Leader expects from all of his useful idiots.

[Grumps 3,704]

43 minutes ago, homersapien said:

So you really believe professional scientists - which includes the regulators - really need Trump to instill a sense of urgency in their work when about 200,000 Americans have already died?  

They planned to drag their feet until Trump lit a fire under them? 

The POTUS - at least the ones who respect science - understand that all they can do is facilitate if necessary but otherwise cheer the effort. 

Until you can provide us specific examples of where Trump has actually facilitated the effort in such a way that wouldn't have happened without him, you are just willfully swallowing Trump's propaganda. 

It's what Dear Leader expects from all of his useful idiots.

Translation: Trump is responsible for anything bad that happens regarding COVID-19 and is responsible for nothing good that happens regarding COVID-19.

[SocialCircle 570]

48 minutes ago, homersapien said:

So you really believe professional scientists - which includes the regulators - really need Trump to instill a sense of urgency in their work when about 200,000 Americans have already died?  

They planned to drag their feet until Trump lit a fire under them? 

The POTUS - at least the ones who respect science - understand that all they can do is facilitate if necessary but otherwise cheer the effort. 

Until you can provide us specific examples of where Trump has actually facilitated the effort in such a way that wouldn't have happened without him, you are just willfully swallowing Trump's propaganda. 

It's what Dear Leader expects from all of his useful idiots.

I already provided the link. I believe Trump has greased the path to get this to the public as well or better than anyone else would or could have because he isn’t a politician. He is a problem solver. An example I’ll use is getting the ships to NY and to CA when NY said they were running out of hospital beds. I never said he would light a fired under scientists better than anyone as that is just you spinning my words into something I didn’t say or mean. 

[Mikey 16,615]

18 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

that is just you spinning my words into something I didn’t say or mean. 

That tactic of his is years old. It's one of his fall-backs when all else has failed.

[Leftfield 2,607]

18 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

I believe Trump has greased the path to get this to the public as well or better than anyone else would or could have because he isn’t a politician. 

Do you have another example of something he has done to prepare the path for distribution of a vaccine? All you have mentioned so far is asking states to speed approval of distribution centers, which as I pointed out is a fairly obvious thing to do. I fail to see how you believe no one else could or would do that..

[homersapien 11,386]

19 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

I already provided the link. I believe Trump has greased the path to get this to the public as well or better than anyone else would or could have because he isn’t a politician. He is a problem solver. An example I’ll use is getting the ships to NY and to CA when NY said they were running out of hospital beds. I never said he would light a fired under scientists better than anyone as that is just you spinning my words into something I didn’t say or mean. 

We're talking about the vaccine. 

What exactly has Trump done to directly effect a faster delivery of the vaccine that wouldn't have been done without him.  It's a simple question.

[homersapien 11,386]

2 hours ago, Mikey said:

That tactic of his is years old. It's one of his fall-backs when all else has failed.

It's not my fault that you can't write precisely enough to communicate your point or defend it after I point out the holes in your statements.

Learn to write better. 

(Hint: it helps to start thinking better first.)

[SocialCircle 570]

1 hour ago, Leftfield said:

Do you have another example of something he has done to prepare the path for distribution of a vaccine? All you have mentioned so far is asking states to speed approval of distribution centers, which as I pointed out is a fairly obvious thing to do. I fail to see how you believe no one else could or would do that..

This vaccine will be out there faster than any vaccine in modern history and the plan to get it distributed is unprecedented. You ignored several of the items mentioned in the first link. Here is another link posting some other steps that have already been taken. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/08/21/covid-vaccine-government-wants-distribution-system-ready-nov-1/3413109001/

 

 

 

[homersapien 11,386]

Well, there is at least one area where the Trump administration intervened directly with CDC scientists and their operations, but unfortunately, not for the better:

 

Trump officials interfered with CDC reports on Covid-19

The politically appointed HHS spokesperson and his team demanded and received the right to review CDC’s scientific reports to health professionals.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/11/exclusive-trump-officials-interfered-with-cdc-reports-on-covid-19-412809

 

 

 

 

[Leftfield 2,607]

20 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

This vaccine will be out there faster than any vaccine in modern history and the plan to get it distributed is unprecedented. You ignored several of the items mentioned in the first link. Here is another link posting some other steps that have already been taken. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/08/21/covid-vaccine-government-wants-distribution-system-ready-nov-1/3413109001/

 

Well, it was difficult to read the first link considering it was behind a paywall.

Never-the-less, thank you for providing some additional examples. I will give Trump credit for getting a program in place for rapid distribution of the vaccine and cutting through as much red tape as possible. However, I must once again point out that, other than a fancy, attention-grabbing name, everything listed in that article about the program involves fairly obvious steps. I'm not saying that Trump is doing a bad job in this regard, I'm simply saying your arguments that nobody else could do this as effectively are ridiculous. 

You keep saying the plan is unprecedented. While that's true, the fact is there has been no pandemic close to this scale in 100 years. Things have changed considerably since then, so no one has even had the opportunity to set a precedent until now.

You also say the vaccine will be out there faster than any in history, but you already admitted Trump has absolutely nothing to do with the development of it (and accusing others of twisting your words when they were pointing out he has no involvement). 

Trump's public statement about the program asked the States to be ready for vaccine distribution as early as late October, but even the article you provided indicates the initial doses would have to be distributed primarily by the military to a limited number of people. It lists that as occurring in November, but even by the rosiest estimates that is extremely doubtful.

My argument here is that many Trump supporters seem to be taken by the thought that he is more effective than anyone has or could be in getting things done. While certainly there are cases where his use of the Bully Pulpit has lit a fire under people, I believe he has used it so much and so stridently (and certainly emphasized the Bully more than anyone in history) that it has become white noise. He rants on Twitter and in press conferences constantly and no one can take him seriously any longer.

No one can deny that the man is a fantastic self-promoter, but many of his supporters take what he says at face value and refuse to dig any deeper. You said earlier that Trump is not a politician (I'm assuming in the negative sense). I would love to know your definition of it because it appears to me that he's mastered it.

[Grumps 3,704]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Well, there is at least one area where the Trump administration intervened directly with CDC scientists and their operations, but unfortunately, not for the better:

 

Trump officials interfered with CDC reports on Covid-19

The politically appointed HHS spokesperson and his team demanded and received the right to review CDC’s scientific reports to health professionals.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/11/exclusive-trump-officials-interfered-with-cdc-reports-on-covid-19-412809

 

 

 

 

Wow! The HHS wants to read public CDC reports. That is some pretty severe interference and corruption!

[SocialCircle 570]

1 hour ago, Leftfield said:

Well, it was difficult to read the first link considering it was behind a paywall.

Never-the-less, thank you for providing some additional examples. I will give Trump credit for getting a program in place for rapid distribution of the vaccine and cutting through as much red tape as possible. However, I must once again point out that, other than a fancy, attention-grabbing name, everything listed in that article about the program involves fairly obvious steps. I'm not saying that Trump is doing a bad job in this regard, I'm simply saying your arguments that nobody else could do this as effectively are ridiculous. 

You keep saying the plan is unprecedented. While that's true, the fact is there has been no pandemic close to this scale in 100 years. Things have changed considerably since then, so no one has even had the opportunity to set a precedent until now.

You also say the vaccine will be out there faster than any in history, but you already admitted Trump has absolutely nothing to do with the development of it (and accusing others of twisting your words when they were pointing out he has no involvement). 

Trump's public statement about the program asked the States to be ready for vaccine distribution as early as late October, but even the article you provided indicates the initial doses would have to be distributed primarily by the military to a limited number of people. It lists that as occurring in November, but even by the rosiest estimates that is extremely doubtful.

My argument here is that many Trump supporters seem to be taken by the thought that he is more effective than anyone has or could be in getting things done. While certainly there are cases where his use of the Bully Pulpit has lit a fire under people, I believe he has used it so much and so stridently (and certainly emphasized the Bully more than anyone in history) that it has become white noise. He rants on Twitter and in press conferences constantly and no one can take him seriously any longer.

No one can deny that the man is a fantastic self-promoter, but many of his supporters take what he says at face value and refuse to dig any deeper. You said earlier that Trump is not a politician (I'm assuming in the negative sense). I would love to know your definition of it because it appears to me that he's mastered it.

I agree he is a con man and a self promoter among other things. However, he has many good points as well. Too many only focus on his faults and too many others only focus on his strengths. The truth is there are many of both. In my opinion he is deeply flawed and also has significant strengths. My conclusion is he is ultimately better for our country than the current alternative offered up by today’s D party. 

[Leftfield 2,607]

We can definitely both agree that we have two deeply flawed candidates. 

[ToraGirl 5,498]

5 hours ago, Leftfield said:

We can definitely both agree that we have two deeply flawed candidates. 

And that each of us voting and non are deeply flawed as well...although there will be some who will lambast the idea. 🙃

[Leftfield 2,607]

11 minutes ago, ToraGirl said:

And that each of us voting and non are deeply flawed as well...although there will be some who will lambast the idea. 🙃

Hopefully I'm not as flawed at my job as I feel these guys are at theirs!

[homersapien 11,386]

7 hours ago, Grumps said:

Wow! The HHS wants to read public CDC reports. That is some pretty severe interference and corruption!

Actually, the premise is the HHS - for politically motivated reasons - wants to act as a the conduit of information, presumably to spin it. 

 

[Grumps 3,704]

17 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Actually, the premise is the HHS - for politically motivated reasons - wants to act as a the conduit of information, presumably to spin it. 

 

Actually! Wow!

[homersapien 11,386]

19 hours ago, Grumps said:

Actually! Wow!

Yep.

Background:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/07/31/897429054/covid-19-hospital-data-system-that-bypasses-cdc-plagued-by-delays-inaccuracies

https://www.wired.com/story/covid-19-data-in-the-us-is-an-information-catastrophe/

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/511734-nearly-three-dozen-health-experts-object-to-hhs-coronavirus-database

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/12/us/politics/health-experts-warning-coronavirus-data.html

 

 

They had to reverse themselves though.

The following piece best expresses the conflict of interest concerns that formed the basis of my premise:

 

We are worried that hospital COVID-19 data no longer goes to the apolitical CDC: Doctors

COVID data should be reported to CDC and HHS. That complies with the new rule and preserves accuracy and access. It's worth it even if it costs more.

The Trump administration issued a new rule this month requiring hospitals to shift reporting their daily data on COVID-19 hospitalizations directly to the Trump administration, instead of reporting it to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. 

As physicians and licensed health care providers who have taken an oath to do no harm, we oppose this rule. During a pandemic, a robust public health response is critical to our ability to provide the best possible care to our patients. The CDC’s decades of experience, established infrastructure and apolitical nature position it to lead our COVID-19 response. When people continue to die from COVID-19, attempting to exclude the CDC from effective decision-making is not only misguided, it may cause more deaths that were otherwise preventable. 

As a non-political agency, the CDC has played a key role in promoting the health of Americans since its inception in the 1940s, when it was established to work on malaria eradication. Over the past several decades, the CDC helped contain the Legionella outbreak in the 1970s, aided in the discovery that hepatitis B could be sexually transmitted, identified the emergence of drug resistance in tuberculosis, and reported the first ever known cases of acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS). 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/28/covid-19-hospital-data-cdc-column/5478847002/