The Emerging Movement for Police and Prison Abolition

[rhughes 59]

It has gotten really bad. I've had to sit in ARD meetings where parents didn't know their child's birthday or how old they were.  Grandparents having to raise 5,6,7 sometimes 8 children and not having any control.  It's just a bad deal all of the way around.  

[DKW 86 7,438]

10 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

We have a lot of people poo-pooing any idea that really addresses fixing the issues. 

Some of yall are sad puppies. When I coached peewee football, I soon realized that I was going to have go get the kids, dress the kids, feed and water the kids. Their prents were too busy drinking all day to do any of that. These kids need to get out of the house so that they can see a different side of the world. All they see is extremely poor parenting and that no one cares. They have to see that someone does care, that they matter, and that the world is not laying up stoned all day. 

Whomever facepalms that can KMA...

[AuburnNTexas 7,167]

On 5/19/2021 at 10:34 AM, AUDub said:

Maybe redlining a bunch of people into the jobless sectors of our cities then having the police enforce a draconian, racist drug policy was a bad idea. 

I dunno, just spitballing. 

That is part of the problem there is no doubt about that. We have created a cycle of poverty and violence in these communities.  Sadly by putting people into jail for minor drug offenses they often come out as harden criminals to protect themselves in Jail and lead to more violence when they leave jail.  I am not sure what you can do to help somebody who already been to jail and because of what it takes to survive in that environment comes out as a different person. As I said above it is a long term fix. That needs to use school as the way out.  We also need to find a way to bring good paying jobs with a future into these communities. 

I think people on both sides of the aisle have finally figured out that putting people in prison for minor things is not a solution but is part of the problem.  That is why the bill (three strike rule easy to find a reason to put somebody in prison enforced more in poor neighborhoods then well to do) that was passed during the Clinton administration with Biden as one of the sponsors was overturned during Trump administration with bipartisan support.  As for the Red lining again no simple solution you could pass a law saying it is illegal to deny a loan based on neighborhood but the people would still be denied because of work history and salary requirements.  So until people have good paying jobs in local community Red Lining will still happen indirectly.

Part of the inner city issue are related to lost manufacturing jobs that were exported overseas starting in the late 50's as we had thriving communities in places like Detroit, Baltimore, Indianapolis.  The new well paying jobs require skills and education which sadly is missing in  the inner cities and to an extent in rural America if you look at places like West Virginia. About the same time that we start exporting Industrial jobs out of country we also started to remove shop classed from our secondary schools. Plumbers, Electricians, mechanics, heating and cooling technicians, welders, etc. They make good money but we no longer teach any of that in our schools depriving kids who are not college bound the chance for a good paying job.  

[AU9377 5,019]

1 hour ago, AuburnNTexas said:

That is part of the problem there is no doubt about that. We have created a cycle of poverty and violence in these communities.  Sadly by putting people into jail for minor drug offenses they often come out as harden criminals to protect themselves in Jail and lead to more violence when they leave jail.  I am not sure what you can do to help somebody who already been to jail and because of what it takes to survive in that environment comes out as a different person. As I said above it is a long term fix. That needs to use school as the way out.  We also need to find a way to bring good paying jobs with a future into these communities. 

I think people on both sides of the aisle have finally figured out that putting people in prison for minor things is not a solution but is part of the problem.  That is why the bill (three strike rule easy to find a reason to put somebody in prison enforced more in poor neighborhoods then well to do) that was passed during the Clinton administration with Biden as one of the sponsors was overturned during Trump administration with bipartisan support.  As for the Red lining again no simple solution you could pass a law saying it is illegal to deny a loan based on neighborhood but the people would still be denied because of work history and salary requirements.  So until people have good paying jobs in local community Red Lining will still happen indirectly.

Part of the inner city issue are related to lost manufacturing jobs that were exported overseas starting in the late 50's as we had thriving communities in places like Detroit, Baltimore, Indianapolis.  The new well paying jobs require skills and education which sadly is missing in  the inner cities and to an extent in rural America if you look at places like West Virginia. About the same time that we start exporting Industrial jobs out of country we also started to remove shop classed from our secondary schools. Plumbers, Electricians, mechanics, heating and cooling technicians, welders, etc. They make good money but we no longer teach any of that in our schools depriving kids who are not college bound the chance for a good paying job.  

I agree that there needs to be more emphasis on learning trades.  I believe the loss of manufacturing jobs certainly played a role in the problems with poverty in some of the larger cities.  However, manufacturing, especially textile manufacturing, jobs have been lost throughout the deep South without the same levels of what many want to blame as poverty induced criminal behavior.  There is a way to bring many of those manufacturing jobs back to the U.S., but that would include removing health care costs from the backs of employers. That single cost alone has made the cost of manufacturing many products domestically too costly for U.S. based corporations.

If we back up our focus a bit, we can see that the U.S. is not alone in dealing with these issues, we are just dealing with them on a larger scale.  Europe is struggling with many of the same problems.  The result has been a segregation of people economically in many countries like France and Germany.

[AuburnNTexas 7,167]

I tried looking up demographic information on various Big City Police Departments.  Most of what I can find is out of date but there has been a definite trend towards trying to make the diversity of big City Police Departments match the local population.  For some reason a lot of the Data is old from around 2013 based on the trends I have seen where they compared from 10-20 years before the trend has been positive in matching the cities diversity but still has a ways to go. 

One key issue I found was in the African American community in that even though departments are reaching out they just are not getting enough quality applicants. There was no explanation for why smaller percentages of African Americans even apply for police positions the Latino community which has grown larger in the US is getting higher percentage of Latino Applicants but still not matching percent of population in the city but is trending up. 

In some cities white police officers are in the minority.   Some cities are a lot closer than others in matching police diversity to racial diversity. The one key area is in almost all police departments are heavily male. Some of that may be physical requirements and some may be not that many women are interested (this is my opinion I did not see anything discussing this when I researched).

Demographic of city police forces:

Detroit

Year 2013 breakdown of gender and ethnic minorities in the DPD.:^[15][a]

·        Male: 75%

·        Female: 25%

·        African-American or black: 63%

·        White: 33%

·        Hispanic, any race: 4%

·        Asian: 0.4%

 

Baltimore City’s police force is the most diverse in the region, at 45 percent white, 40 percent African American and 12 percent Hispanic. But whites are still overrepresented compared with the city population, which is just 28 percent white and 63 percent African American.

 

Atlanta

Breakdown of the makeup of the rank and file of APD as of 2013:^[5]

·        Male: 82%

·        Female: 18%

·        African American/Black: 58%

·        Caucasian/ White: 37%

·        Hispanic: 4%

·        Asian: 1%

 

Chicago

n 2017, the composition of the department's sworn personnel by gender was 77% male and 23% female.^[15] The highest ranked women in Chicago police history was Barbara West,^[16] who was appointed the third highest rank cop (the Deputy Superintendent) in 2020.^[17]

In 2017, the racial composition of the department's sworn personnel was:^[18]

·        50% non-Hispanic White

·        25% Hispanic (of any race)

·        21% African American

·        3% Asian American/Pacific Islander

·        1% other

 

Dallas

n 2017, the composition of the department's sworn personnel by gender was 77% male and 23% female.^[15] The highest ranked women in Chicago police history was Barbara West,^[16] who was appointed the third highest rank cop (the Deputy Superintendent) in 2020.^[17]

In 2017, the racial composition of the department's sworn personnel was:^[18]

·        50% non-Hispanic White

·        25% Hispanic (of any race)

·        21% African American

·        3% Asian American/Pacific Islander

·        1% other

Los Angeles

As of 2019, the Los Angeles Police Department had 10,008 officers sworn in. Of these, 81% (8,158) were male and 19% (1,850) female. The racial/ethnic breakdown:^[61]

·        48.8% or 4,882 was Hispanic/Latino (of any race)

·        30.9% or 3,090 was non-Hispanic White

·        9.62% or 962 was African American

·        7.66% or 766 was Asian

·        2.46% or 246 was Filipino American

·        remaining were Indian and Other Ethnicities.

Miami

The demographics of full-time sworn personnel are:^[29]

·        Male: 82%

·        Female: 18%

·        Hispanic (of any race): 54%

·        African-American/Black: 27%

·        non-Hispanic White: 19%

New York

The demographics of full-time sworn personnel are:^[29]

·        Male: 82%

·        Female: 18%

·        Hispanic (of any race): 54%

·        African-American/Black: 27%

·        non-Hispanic White: 19%

 

Nationally

Nationally, 27 percent of local police officers were members of a racial or ethnic minority in 2013, compared with 15 percent in 1987, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. At that time white Non-Hispanic Population was around 63% White including Hispanic was around 72%. basically nationally in 2013 to match US diversity the police department nationally should have been around 37%.

https://datausa.io/profile/soc/police-officers

In the above URL in 2020 Nationally White Non-Hispanic Police office made up about 67% of all police officers. In the 2020 Census White Non-Hispanic make up about 62% of the population. Black Police officer about 12.4% which is only about 1% less than current percent of total population and White Hispanic 11.5% There was no data on Hispanic non white in the police data but in 2020 total Hispanic population is around 18% so is the group that would need to grow the most in US Police departments to match population demographics. 

Nationally we are getting much closer to have our police departments match our population which is a trend in the right direction. Some individual cities not so much which needs to be addressed. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/  This is a pay site first time you open you can look at statistics for a while then they block it.

Proportionately blacks killed by Police is much higher than other groups killed by Police in 2020 there were 241 blacks killed by Police while whites were 457 and Hispanics 169 this works out to 36/1,000,000 blacks killed by police at the same time Homicide in the Black community was 38/100,000. There is no break down on the Police statistics on the reason behind the higher proportionate numbers. Homicide in Black community is 7th leading cause of death at 3% with death by gun the largest part of that. Homicide in not even in the top 10 amongst whites. There may or may not be a correlation between the higher homicide rate in Black community and higher police killing rate it would take amore in depth analyses of each death by police to come up with any conclusion.

[DKW 86 7,438]

On 5/24/2021 at 10:26 PM, AuburnNTexas said:

Proportionately blacks killed by Police is much higher than other groups killed by Police in 2020 there were 241 blacks killed by Police while whites were 457 and Hispanics 169 this works out to 36/1,000,000 blacks killed by police at the same time Homicide in the Black community was 38/100,000. There is no break down on the Police statistics on the reason behind the higher proportionate numbers. Homicide in Black community is 7th leading cause of death at 3% with death by gun the largest part of that. Homicide in not even in the top 10 amongst whites. There may or may not be a correlation between the higher homicide rate in Black community and higher police killing rate it would take amore in depth analyses of each death by police to come up with any conclusion.

Black Homicide Rate, : 380/1M
BHR-Police:                       36/1M Everyone in America is now obsessed with this.
BHR Other:             344/1M No One Seems to Care.

If you look at these statistics, it would seem that AMERICA is addressing only the Death by COP number and avoiding even discussing the other 90.5% part of the problem. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by DKW 86

[AuburnNTexas 7,167]

2 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Black Homicide Rate, : 380/1M
BHR-Police:                       36/1M Everyone in America is now obsessed with this.
Homicide other:             344/1M No One Seems to Care.

If you look at these statistics, it would seem that AMERICA is addressing only the Death by COP number and avoiding even discussing the other 90.5% part of the problem. 

Like I said there may be a correlation between high Homicide death rate and high Death by Cop but without an intensive analyses of each Death by Cop to determine how many were legitimate in protecting other lives and if there was a way to resolve it without a mortal outcome. To often people on both sides of an issue take raw data and draw a conclusion. To me it appears there is a correlation that because of higher level of violence in black community as seen by homicides there is a correlation to higher incidence of Death by Cop but I have at admit that is a simplistic view when you see things like Floyd death by Cop which was totally wrong and rightfully convicted as murder.  Looking at just a few incidents like Floyd is also a simplistic view that paints all Cops in a bad light.  That is why we need a review of each incident of Death by Cop. Personally I hope that type review will show a few bad apples amongst our Police force but not a systemic issue, however if what I hope is wrong and there is a systemic issue knowing that makes it easier to address it.

[AU9377 5,019]

17 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

I tried looking up demographic information on various Big City Police Departments.  Most of what I can find is out of date but there has been a definite trend towards trying to make the diversity of big City Police Departments match the local population.  For some reason a lot of the Data is old from around 2013 based on the trends I have seen where they compared from 10-20 years before the trend has been positive in matching the cities diversity but still has a ways to go. 

One key issue I found was in the African American community in that even though departments are reaching out they just are not getting enough quality applicants. There was no explanation for why smaller percentages of African Americans even apply for police positions the Latino community which has grown larger in the US is getting higher percentage of Latino Applicants but still not matching percent of population in the city but is trending up. 

In some cities white police officers are in the minority.   Some cities are a lot closer than others in matching police diversity to racial diversity. The one key area is in almost all police departments are heavily male. Some of that may be physical requirements and some may be not that many women are interested (this is my opinion I did not see anything discussing this when I researched).

Demographic of city police forces:

Detroit

Year 2013 breakdown of gender and ethnic minorities in the DPD.:^[15][a]

·        Male: 75%

·        Female: 25%

·        African-American or black: 63%

·        White: 33%

·        Hispanic, any race: 4%

·        Asian: 0.4%

 

Baltimore City’s police force is the most diverse in the region, at 45 percent white, 40 percent African American and 12 percent Hispanic. But whites are still overrepresented compared with the city population, which is just 28 percent white and 63 percent African American.

 

Atlanta

Breakdown of the makeup of the rank and file of APD as of 2013:^[5]

·        Male: 82%

·        Female: 18%

·        African American/Black: 58%

·        Caucasian/ White: 37%

·        Hispanic: 4%

·        Asian: 1%

 

Chicago

n 2017, the composition of the department's sworn personnel by gender was 77% male and 23% female.^[15] The highest ranked women in Chicago police history was Barbara West,^[16] who was appointed the third highest rank cop (the Deputy Superintendent) in 2020.^[17]

In 2017, the racial composition of the department's sworn personnel was:^[18]

·        50% non-Hispanic White

·        25% Hispanic (of any race)

·        21% African American

·        3% Asian American/Pacific Islander

·        1% other

 

Dallas

n 2017, the composition of the department's sworn personnel by gender was 77% male and 23% female.^[15] The highest ranked women in Chicago police history was Barbara West,^[16] who was appointed the third highest rank cop (the Deputy Superintendent) in 2020.^[17]

In 2017, the racial composition of the department's sworn personnel was:^[18]

·        50% non-Hispanic White

·        25% Hispanic (of any race)

·        21% African American

·        3% Asian American/Pacific Islander

·        1% other

Los Angeles

As of 2019, the Los Angeles Police Department had 10,008 officers sworn in. Of these, 81% (8,158) were male and 19% (1,850) female. The racial/ethnic breakdown:^[61]

·        48.8% or 4,882 was Hispanic/Latino (of any race)

·        30.9% or 3,090 was non-Hispanic White

·        9.62% or 962 was African American

·        7.66% or 766 was Asian

·        2.46% or 246 was Filipino American

·        remaining were Indian and Other Ethnicities.

Miami

The demographics of full-time sworn personnel are:^[29]

·        Male: 82%

·        Female: 18%

·        Hispanic (of any race): 54%

·        African-American/Black: 27%

·        non-Hispanic White: 19%

New York

The demographics of full-time sworn personnel are:^[29]

·        Male: 82%

·        Female: 18%

·        Hispanic (of any race): 54%

·        African-American/Black: 27%

·        non-Hispanic White: 19%

 

Nationally

Nationally, 27 percent of local police officers were members of a racial or ethnic minority in 2013, compared with 15 percent in 1987, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. At that time white Non-Hispanic Population was around 63% White including Hispanic was around 72%. basically nationally in 2013 to match US diversity the police department nationally should have been around 37%.

https://datausa.io/profile/soc/police-officers

In the above URL in 2020 Nationally White Non-Hispanic Police office made up about 67% of all police officers. In the 2020 Census White Non-Hispanic make up about 62% of the population. Black Police officer about 12.4% which is only about 1% less than current percent of total population and White Hispanic 11.5% There was no data on Hispanic non white in the police data but in 2020 total Hispanic population is around 18% so is the group that would need to grow the most in US Police departments to match population demographics. 

Nationally we are getting much closer to have our police departments match our population which is a trend in the right direction. Some individual cities not so much which needs to be addressed. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/  This is a pay site first time you open you can look at statistics for a while then they block it.

Proportionately blacks killed by Police is much higher than other groups killed by Police in 2020 there were 241 blacks killed by Police while whites were 457 and Hispanics 169 this works out to 36/1,000,000 blacks killed by police at the same time Homicide in the Black community was 38/100,000. There is no break down on the Police statistics on the reason behind the higher proportionate numbers. Homicide in Black community is 7th leading cause of death at 3% with death by gun the largest part of that. Homicide in not even in the top 10 amongst whites. There may or may not be a correlation between the higher homicide rate in Black community and higher police killing rate it would take amore in depth analyses of each death by police to come up with any conclusion.

I can appreciate the research.  However, we cannot pretend that the rates of criminal conduct are the same in every community.  Regardless of the underlying causes, the disproportionate offender rates will cause other numbers to appear even more sinister than they are.  I do believe that a diverse police force is ideal, especially with regard to community policing.  However, I also believe that the best candidate should be hired for a position.  If that candidate happens to be a minority candidate, that is terrific.  If not, hiring the lesser qualified candidate merely for the sake of a few percentages seems counterproductive.

[cole256 17,084]

When speaking on this you also have to take into account how racist banks black balled African Americans as far as giving out reasonable loans as well. There's a bunch that was done as far as causing the problem but when it become time to talk about correcting people don't want to put thought into that.

[AUDub 11,167]

1 hour ago, cole256 said:

When speaking on this you also have to take into account how racist banks black balled African Americans as far as giving out reasonable loans as well. There's a bunch that was done as far as causing the problem but when it become time to talk about correcting people don't want to put thought into that.

Yep. The main means of achieving the "redlining" I referred to earlier. 

[homersapien 11,425]

It's also interesting to note how interstate highways were routed in straight lines through black neighborhoods in cities while swerving around rich white neighborhoods.

Those black homeowners were not compensated fairly, much less having their neighborhoods destroyed.

https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-wp0/wp-content/uploads/sites/278/2020/10/19130728/White-Mens-Roads-Through-Black-Mens-Homes-Advancing-Racial-Equity-Through-Highway-Reconstruction.pdf

https://www.postandcourier.com/news/local_state_news/why-highways-were-designed-to-run-through-black-communities-sc-faces-historic-dilemma-again/article_576f3fce-0976-11eb-a46c-635e6fad5d38.html

https://catalyst.independent.org/2020/04/02/how-the-u-s-government-destroyed-black-neighborhoods/

 

[AUDub 11,167]

7 hours ago, homersapien said:

It's also interesting to note how interstate highways were routed in straight lines through black neighborhoods in cities while swerving around rich white neighborhoods.

Those black homeowners were not compensated fairly, much less having their neighborhoods destroyed.

https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-wp0/wp-content/uploads/sites/278/2020/10/19130728/White-Mens-Roads-Through-Black-Mens-Homes-Advancing-Racial-Equity-Through-Highway-Reconstruction.pdf

https://www.postandcourier.com/news/local_state_news/why-highways-were-designed-to-run-through-black-communities-sc-faces-historic-dilemma-again/article_576f3fce-0976-11eb-a46c-635e6fad5d38.html

https://catalyst.independent.org/2020/04/02/how-the-u-s-government-destroyed-black-neighborhoods/

 

This was a recent hoo rah rah wherein "conservatives" were laughing at the idea that "interstates" are racist lol. The Twitter responses showing just that were great.

Buttigieg was absolutely correct. 

[AU9377 5,019]

10 hours ago, homersapien said:

It's also interesting to note how interstate highways were routed in straight lines through black neighborhoods in cities while swerving around rich white neighborhoods.

Those black homeowners were not compensated fairly, much less having their neighborhoods destroyed.

https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-wp0/wp-content/uploads/sites/278/2020/10/19130728/White-Mens-Roads-Through-Black-Mens-Homes-Advancing-Racial-Equity-Through-Highway-Reconstruction.pdf

https://www.postandcourier.com/news/local_state_news/why-highways-were-designed-to-run-through-black-communities-sc-faces-historic-dilemma-again/article_576f3fce-0976-11eb-a46c-635e6fad5d38.html

https://catalyst.independent.org/2020/04/02/how-the-u-s-government-destroyed-black-neighborhoods/

 

I don't doubt that happened.  However, there were many reasons that interstates were built where they were built. Many times economics and race combine and distort the motives involved.  Communities were fighting to have the interstate system near them in many parts of the country.

In any event, there is a certain level of fatigue that is setting in when it comes to the constant drum beat of the far left when it comes to race.  I am slightly left of center politically, but there are many left of myself and right that have also been disadvantaged for one reason or another.  At some point, in order to maintain a consensus in this country, people have to start worrying less about what they believe society owes them for past transgressions and more about how everyone can work together today and tomorrow.

People can hand slap all they want (LMAO), but the U.S. government and the people that make up this country, have achieved many things over the past 250 years, give or take.  As with anything formed and run by imperfect people, many mistakes and wrongs have also been a part of the evolution of the country.  The evolution of any empire over centuries is bound to be full of judgment when viewed in retrospect.    Simply put, the U.S. is not the evil empire that some would suggest, nor is it the benevolent shining star on a hill others would suggest.  People grow tired of being told that they owe something for anything that they themselves had no part in.  The vast majority of people will tune it out completely at some point.  When that happens, even the most serious issues will be treated like the trivial ones and we all lose.

[DKW 86 7,438]

8 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I don't doubt that happened.  However, there were many reasons that interstates were built where they were built. Many times economics and race combine and distort the motives involved.  Communities were fighting to have the interstate system near them in many parts of the country.

In any event, there is a certain level of fatigue that is setting in when it comes to the constant drum beat of the far left when it comes to race.  I am slightly left of center politically, but there are many left of myself and right that have also been disadvantaged for one reason or another.  At some point, in order to maintain a consensus in this country, people have to start worrying less about what they believe society owes them for past transgressions and more about how everyone can work together today and tomorrow.

People can hand slap all they want (LMAO), but the U.S. government and the people that make up this country, have achieved many things over the past 250 years, give or take.  As with anything formed and run by imperfect people, many mistakes and wrongs have also been a part of the evolution of the country.  The evolution of any empire over centuries is bound to be full of judgment when viewed in retrospect.    Simply put, the U.S. is not the evil empire that some would suggest, nor is it the benevolent shining star on a hill others would suggest.  People grow tired of being told that they owe something for anything that they themselves had no part in.  The vast majority of people will tune it out completely at some point.  When that happens, even the most serious issues will be treated like the trivial ones and we all lose.

While I understand what you are saying, and agree with most of it, I just wanted to add a clarification: While I 100% understand the Racial Inequality, Historical and Present Day, I truly believe that the primary issue for the last 60 years, today, and going forward is INCOME stratification of the American Public. As the 1%ers gather even more wealth by the day, the real issue will become clearer for everyone. The Oligarchy will exert more and more influence here in America. The Oligarchs own the media and by extension the ultimate views on our society. They own Congress and DC outright and have even brought Congress et al along with them. 

To distract the American Public from what is really going on, gathering wealth and power unto themselves, they will divide and conquer the electorate, I believe that the real driving impetus for much of Washington's outrage over the last 20= years is when the Oligarchy dont get their way. The MIC is for real and gaining power. I am confident that we will soon have yet another escalation in Military Spending in the next 4 years as they demand even more power and wealth. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by DKW 86

[AU9377 5,019]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

While I understand what you are saying, and agree with most of it, I just wanted to add a clarification: While I 100% understand the Racial Inequality, Historical and Present Day, I truly believe that the primary issue for the last 60 years, today, and going forward is INCOME stratification of the American Public. As the 1%ers gather even more wealth by the day, the real issue will become clearer for everyone. The Oligarchy will exert more and more influence here in America. The Oligarchs own the media and by extension the ultimate views on our society. They own Congress and DC outright and have even brought Congress et al along with them. 

To distract the American Public from what is really going on, gathering wealth and power unto themselves, they will divide and conquer the electorate, I believe that the real driving impetus for much of Washington's outrage over the last 20= years is when the Oligarchy dont get their way. The MIC is for real and gaining power. I am confident that we will soon have yet another escalation in Military Spending in the next 4 years as they demand even more power and wealth. 

It is a real problem.  I'm not certain that I see it as being an effort that is as organized as you explained above, but I do believe that it is a real problem.  It is a problem that cuts across race and gender and it is worsening by the year.  In many ways, it is driven by the ongoing problems that drive economic systems.  Capitalism unchecked and without a sense of moral obligation is destined to deepen the economic divide.  In order to mitigate this, most Western first world countries, including the U.S., operate a hybrid economic system.  When any one part of this hybrid is mismanaged, it risks failing.

[homersapien 11,425]

11 hours ago, AU9377 said:

....People grow tired of being told that they owe something for anything that they themselves had no part in.... 

I've never understood where this sort of thinking comes from.

 

[AU9377 5,019]

22 hours ago, homersapien said:

I've never understood where this sort of thinking comes from.

 

I favor making every attempt to solve a problem rather than simply assigning blame and writing a check. Bad things have happened to a lot of people over the course of history.  We waste a lot of energy dwelling on what people are owed and why.  Real progress gets made when/if we focus on education, healthcare and jobs being available in 2021.  The truth is that our society has evolved.  Had any of us been born in 1800, our analysis of the world would be very different.  Instead of considering that, we spend enormous amounts of time imparting the moral standards of today on people that were incapable of seeing the world as we see it today.  Thankfully, we don't operate from a viewpoint of survival, which is very different than the plight of most prior to the past 2 centuries.

[CoffeeTiger 5,154]

5 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I favor making every attempt to solve a problem rather than simply assigning blame and writing a check. Bad things have happened to a lot of people over the course of history.  We waste a lot of energy dwelling on what people are owed and why.  Real progress gets made when/if we focus on education, healthcare and jobs being available in 2021.  The truth is that our society has evolved.  Had any of us been born in 1800, our analysis of the world would be very different.  Instead of considering that, we spend enormous amounts of time imparting the moral standards of today on people that were incapable of seeing the world as we see it today.  Thankfully, we don't operate from a viewpoint of survival, which is very different than the plight of most prior to the past 2 centuries.

The Civil rights struggle really wasn't that long ago. There are still a lot of people alive today that marched against giving rights and fair treatment to minorities, and who taught those values and beliefs to their kids who are basically running the world today. 

 

No, nobody alive today owned slaves, but they DID set up and maintain a society that was designed to give white, self identified Christians a very big advantage in just about everything. I don't necessarily advocate handing out monetary reparations, but I also don't buy the "just invest in jobs/healthcare things for everyone, not specifically targeted to minorities, and they'll catch up economically eventually."   You can't hold someone back for 3/4 of a race and then expect them to catch up to the pack just because you stopped holding onto them for the last 1/4. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

15 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

The Civil rights struggle really wasn't that long ago. There are still a lot of people alive today that marched against giving rights and fair treatment to minorities, and who taught those values and beliefs to their kids who are basically running the world today. 

No, nobody alive today owned slaves, but they DID set up and maintain a society that was designed to give white, self identified Christians a very big advantage in just about everything. I don't necessarily advocate handing out monetary reparations, but I also don't buy the "just invest in jobs/healthcare things for everyone, not specifically targeted to minorities, and they'll catch up economically eventually."   You can't hold someone back for 3/4 of a race and then expect them to catch up to the pack just because you stopped holding onto them for the last 1/4. 

It drives me insane that people act like it's all been even steven since 1865. 

Tulsa happened just 100 years ago. Generational wealth- that had taken almost 200 years to build- was wiped out by the interstates just 70 years ago. (No, it's not a damned accident that Atlanta's downtown connector- well, exists at all-but much less literally curves around to perfectly bisect Auburn Avenue in the same city where street names change at certain blocks so that the white people didn't have to say they lived on the same streets as black people.) George Wallace stood on the school steps just 60 years ago. Reagan launched a war on poor black people just 40 years ago. Clinton made it much, much worse 30 years ago. Governors in states like Georgia and Texas are actively and aggressively suppressing the black vote as I type this. 

I realize a lot of this is redundant to previous posts in the thread, and you said it perfectly with your 3/4 race analogy. So apologies for the rant. But on the off chance anyone realizes something they didn't before...

Really, anyone confused or uninformed about these things needs to pick up a damn book, but they can get a very quick and easy jump start by watching 13th by Ava DuVernay.

https://www.netflix.com/title/80091741

[McLoofus 35,182]

Tons of additional info in the replies.

 

[homersapien 11,425]

On 6/2/2021 at 12:01 PM, AU9377 said:

I favor making every attempt to solve a problem rather than simply assigning blame and writing a check. Bad things have happened to a lot of people over the course of history.  We waste a lot of energy dwelling on what people are owed and why. 

This smacks of an effort to simply dismiss or ignore the actual origins and causes of the "problem".

Real progress gets made when/if we focus on education, healthcare and jobs being available in 2021. 

Our system is based on offering education, healthcare and jobs as opportunities, not grants.  Events of the past - our history - is largely what determines the circumstances of individuals that empower them to take advantage of such opportunities.

To ignore that reality is to ignore one of the primary causes of the "problem".

The truth is that our society has evolved.  Had any of us been born in 1800, our analysis of the world would be very different.  Instead of considering that, we spend enormous amounts of time imparting the moral standards of today on people that were incapable of seeing the world as we see it today.  Thankfully, we don't operate from a viewpoint of survival, which is very different than the plight of most prior to the past 2 centuries.

Nevertheless we - and our society - are products of our history.   Facing that history is an integral part of effecting future progress. We don't get a "reset" button now.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by homersapien

[AU9377 5,019]

20 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

The Civil rights struggle really wasn't that long ago. There are still a lot of people alive today that marched against giving rights and fair treatment to minorities, and who taught those values and beliefs to their kids who are basically running the world today. 

 

No, nobody alive today owned slaves, but they DID set up and maintain a society that was designed to give white, self identified Christians a very big advantage in just about everything. I don't necessarily advocate handing out monetary reparations, but I also don't buy the "just invest in jobs/healthcare things for everyone, not specifically targeted to minorities, and they'll catch up economically eventually."   You can't hold someone back for 3/4 of a race and then expect them to catch up to the pack just because you stopped holding onto them for the last 1/4. 

All true and there are a multitude of programs in place that address those things.  Some work well, some do not.  I have no problem with providing expanded opportunities in order to address those things.  I simply do not believe that money can fix everything.  I also grow tired of the perception that some have domestically that this problem is unique to the U.S.  It isn't.  In fact, the U.S. has done more to address the problem that any other place on the globe.  The scope and visibility of the issue is more magnified in the U.S. due to our demographics.    My fear is that the far left of the Democratic party will over state their case and cause a backlash in the electorate, which would lead to a far right government for years to come.  All the talk about reparations is insanity.  It not only has no chance of happening, but beyond the merits, we cannot afford it. 

[AU9377 5,019]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

 

The actual origins are, for the most part, dead.   The problems are not limited to this country or modern human behavior.  As a country, we have embarked on building a society wherein all are treated equally under the law.    We are attempting to blend that with private enterprise and the economic engine of capitalism.  None of that is easy, and frankly, it has never been done to the degree we are engaged in. 

Does Japan have this problem, no.  Why?  Because they have neither the laws or the population to blend.  The talk of systemic issues is a bit of a stretch as well.  We are a Republic, operating as a representative democracy.  Human beings have a natural instinct to form communities of people that are similar to themselves.  Is it shocking that they also vote for candidates that they most identify with?  That cannot be considered racist.  Some communities from based on common interests that have nothing to do with race.  It may be economic, educational or many other things, but the instinct to do so is the same.

The need of some to condemn this country for our past is simply bizarre.  When this country was formed, were Native Americans mistreated?  Absolutely.  However, that is how communities were formed and nations were built. That doesn't make the men fighting bad men.  It makes them men of their time.

The discussion of the interstate system causing all these problems is another partial story.

Edited June 3, 2021 by AU9377

[AU9377 5,019]

2 hours ago, McLoofus said:

Tons of additional info in the replies.

 

Many of the replies want others to believe that some system wide scheme was in place to take advantage of black people.  That is ridiculous.  Roads were built through poorer communities due to the lower cost of taking property by eminent domain and due to those communities having less political capital.  That certainly cannot be blamed for the problems, such as guns and gangs that are now a problem in those communities.  Pointing the finger is easy.  Accepting that some of the issues are self induced is not.

[McLoofus 35,182]

27 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

Many of the replies want others to believe that some system wide scheme was in place to take advantage of black people.  That is ridiculous.  Roads were built through poorer communities due to the lower cost of taking property by eminent domain and due to those communities having less political capital.  That certainly cannot be blamed for the problems, such as guns and gangs that are now a problem in those communities.  Pointing the finger is easy.  Accepting that some of the issues are self induced is not.

Wow.

Wow wow wow.