The Emerging Movement for Police and Prison Abolition

[AU9377 5,019]

8 hours ago, McLoofus said:

Wow.

Wow wow wow.

Just to be clear, I am a Hillary Clinton voting Democrat.  I am simply not a fan of the far left.  Do you really believe that the interstate system deliberately acted to destroy black communities?  I don't. Did that happen in some places, most likely, but there were also positive impacts in many places.  The vast majority of this country is considerably more to the right than am I.  They are very fatigued with this constant forensic audit of history to find ways to be offended.

[homersapien 11,425]

19 hours ago, AU9377 said:

The need of some to condemn this country for our past is simply bizarre. 

 

This is begging the question.  No one has suggested our country should be "condemned" for it's past. 

What we - or at least I - are saying - is that we should recognize our past and not just accept the myth that we are and always have been a perfect democracy.

The genius of the United States is embedded in the ideals and principles stated in our founding documents.  Our history provides an example of how we have yet to completely fulfill that vision.  As long as we can honestly recognize that, we can maintain a path to fulfilling that promise.  Ignoring - much less denying - that history will lead us nowhere.

Edited June 4, 2021 by homersapien

[McLoofus 35,182]

9 minutes ago, homersapien said:

What we - or at least I - are saying - is that we should recognize our past and not just accept the myth that we are and always have been a perfect democracy.

And there are pragmatic reasons for this. It's not just to amplify white guilt. It's part of how we fix the problems and move forward. I'd elaborate on that if the folks for whom that has yet to sink in haven't made it clear that it's not going to. 

[AU9377 5,019]

8 hours ago, homersapien said:

This is begging the question.  No one has suggested our country should be "condemned" for it's past. 

What we - or at least I - are saying - is that we should recognize our past and not just accept the myth that we are and always have been a perfect democracy.

The genius of the United States is embedded in the ideals and principles stated in our founding documents.  Our history provides an example of how we have yet to completely fulfill that vision.  As long as we can honestly recognize that, we can maintain a path to fulfilling that promise.  Ignoring - much less denying - that history will lead us nowhere.

We have never been a perfect democracy.  I believe that one of our faults today is our stubborn refusal to learn from what has worked in other democracies and implement those things here.  I also have nothing against learning from the mistakes of the past.  I simply grow tired of the idea that anyone is owed something in the form of monetary payments today for wrongs they themselves never endured.  I don't believe that would solve any of the problems that exist today.  Instead, it would give many a reason to dismiss many of the programs that actually do make a difference.

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 hours ago, AU9377 said:

We have never been a perfect democracy.  I believe that one of our faults today is our stubborn refusal to learn from what has worked in other democracies and implement those things here.  I also have nothing against learning from the mistakes of the past.  I simply grow tired of the idea that anyone is owed something in the form of monetary payments today for wrongs they themselves never endured.  I don't believe that would solve any of the problems that exist today.  Instead, it would give many a reason to dismiss many of the programs that actually do make a difference.

You're getting closer to a reasonable stance. Unfortunately, your refusal to acknowledge the very obvious fact- explained to you in several different, easy to understand ways- that many, many people are still suffering from past wrongs (nevermind continuing wrongs) means that you're still very far from a reasonable stance.

[homersapien 11,425]

17 hours ago, AU9377 said:

  ....I simply grow tired of the idea that anyone is owed something in the form of monetary payments today for wrongs they themselves never endured......

No offense,  but this suggests you don't really understand - or are dismissing - the concept of 'generational  wealth', which is key to this issue.

(And 'wealth' includes both finance and culture.)

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by homersapien

[AU9377 5,019]

16 hours ago, homersapien said:

No offense,  but this suggests you don't really understand - or are dismissing - the concept of 'generational  wealth', which is key to this issue.

(And 'wealth' includes both finance and culture.)

 

 

I don't take offense in conversation.  I do understand generational wealth.  However, nothing that has been mentioned could possibly compensate for generational wealth.  That impediment is very real for anyone that doesn't have that wealth and the connections that are inherently part of that wealth.  I agree that culture is part of this as well.  However, no government program or form of compensation can remedy the socio economic disadvantage entirely.  I don't believe anyone would suggest that benefiting from wealth is wrong.  The discussion is how to make the ladder easier to climb from poverty to wealth.  That applies to everyone.

[AU9377 5,019]

17 hours ago, McLoofus said:

You're getting closer to a reasonable stance. Unfortunately, your refusal to acknowledge the very obvious fact- explained to you in several different, easy to understand ways- that many, many people are still suffering from past wrongs (nevermind continuing wrongs) means that you're still very far from a reasonable stance.

Many people do suffer from past wrongs.  There will always be someone or some group that can point to that mistreatment.  When possible, that should be corrected.  Having said that, and while wishing this wasn't true, that is life.  Life is not fair and that lack of fairness cannot always be compensated for by government. 

I can assure you that I understand the topic.  I am an extremely well educated person that has traveled the world.  I certainly don't claim to know the answers to everything, but there aren't many social issues that I can't discuss with some degree of confidence.

[cole256 17,084]

On 6/5/2021 at 12:04 PM, AU9377 said:

I don't take offense in conversation.  I do understand generational wealth.  However, nothing that has been mentioned could possibly compensate for generational wealth.  That impediment is very real for anyone that doesn't have that wealth and the connections that are inherently part of that wealth.  I agree that culture is part of this as well.  However, no government program or form of compensation can remedy the socio economic disadvantage entirely.  I don't believe anyone would suggest that benefiting from wealth is wrong.  The discussion is how to make the ladder easier to climb from poverty to wealth.  That applies to everyone.

Spoken like a true oh well sucks for you intellectual

[AU9377 5,019]

21 minutes ago, cole256 said:

Spoken like a true oh well sucks for you intellectual

More like someone that struggles to balance idealism with the real world that surrounds us.

[cole256 17,084]

8 hours ago, AU9377 said:

More like someone that struggles to balance idealism with the real world that surrounds us.

Nope, just a guy on the outside who, since it doesn't have any effect on himself or the people he loves can easily past judgement and say what it should be. 

If somebody robbed you tomorrow or hurt people that you love, the last thing you'd say is oh....bad stuff happens, can't cry over spilled milk

[DKW 86 7,438]

It is the summation of Accrued Generational Wealth that i have been addressing for some time. The effects of the 1994 Crime Bill was to incarcerate so many YBM that it has devastated parts of the Black Community. Men jailed for victimless drug crimes like possession are marked and face reduced income over their lifetimes for essentially nothing. They are absent parents, which devastates their families, kids, and the next generation. Their family's wealth is devastated. That bleeds into the next generation, and then compounds into a most definite tiered class system. 

None of this I think was intentional at the time, but the 1994 Crime Bill was written 4 years after crime had peaked and was dropping big time. It was actually addressing a crime spike that had actually passed. 

Look, Crime and especially Violent Crime in America has dropped big time. We are safer now than ever before but that doesnt get viewers to watch cable news. So they pile on the hyperbole and BS scare tactics to convince you we need more prisons etc when in reality, we do not. 

American Culture is SSSOOO ****** up.
We build War Machines for Enemies we do not have.
We spend more than the next 10+, maybe 20+ nations on the military. 
We build prisons we do not need.
We imprison people that do not need to be there.
So we can pay For-Profit Companies that kickback to Pols for services we do not need. 

We now have the MIC and PIC as Business Models.