Prior infection >>>>>> vaccinates.

[homersapien 11,393]

16 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

Speak for yourself. You'd never see a sovereign monopoly on all violence in my world. 

Sorry, you need to rephrase that. I don't understand it.

[homersapien 11,393]

19 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

The vaccines were built in the backs of billions of dollars funneled from taxpayers to big pharma. It's the same argument as who would build the roads. Just because the state does it now doesn't mean it wouldn't exist without the state or didn exist before the state. 

We have many examples of stateless societies with local governance where the Boogeyman of statism didn run around taking over. 

The wild west is one such example of pretty impressive free market anarchist in action. 

Yea, we should never use our surerior intellect as humans to better situations. What do you think god kings are? Or Greece democracies. Or spartan war culture.  You try to claim you have no ideology in there, but that is verifiable hogswash.  Political philosophy has existed for the entirety of human existence. As good ideas came about political philosophy changes. 

Liberalism is the most important political philosophy in the history of the world, sure you want to fight over that?

You are starting to make my point.  We are social creatures and governments are a natural part of that evolution. 

Let me rephrase it like this:  Governments are inevitable.  Good governments are optional.  But that option typically requires a counter-organization, aka a counter government.

Anarchy does not represent a natural, or good or even practical option to replace government, for which there is no replacement.  Even the Afghani's have government, only at the tribal level. 

[homersapien 11,393]

28 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

We have many examples of stateless societies with local governance where the Boogeyman of statism didn run around taking over. 

 

I'll bet none that would be considered "advanced".  Got an example?

[AUGunsmith 666]

22 minutes ago, homersapien said:

You are starting to make my point.  We are social creatures and governments are a natural part of that evolution. 

Let me rephrase it like this:  Governments are inevitable.  Good governments are optional.  But that option typically requires a counter-organization, aka a counter government.

Anarchy does not represent a natural, or good or even practical option to replace government, for which there is no replacement.  Even the Afghani's have government, only at the tribal level. 

And this is a misunderstanding of what anarchy actually is. Governments aren't inevitable, merely the status quo. Governance and government are different things that most people supporting government ignore. Anarchy doesn't mean no rules. It doesn't mean chaos. It means people starting a business without half their income going to taxes. It means growing a garden without the government trampling it. 

Governmemts are barriers to natural human interaction. Governments always grow and become progressively more and more evil. 

 

Anarchy is the natural state of humans. Freedom is the natural state of existence. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

The government does have a responsibility to help protect the welfare of the general population. However, that doesn’t mean they can force businesses and such to close and remain closed for extended periods of time. This happened in many areas and the economic fallout has been severe from restaurants and bars having to be closed for such a long time and frankly the government assistance didn’t do much but get a lot of folks hooked on the the government’s payroll aka unemployment pay and now you see all these places that can’t get enough help. 
 

Try to make sensible rules such as mandating masks in certain situations and such, but the total shutdown of businesses crossed the line. Actually goes against protecting the welfare of people when you put them out of the job and they end up losing everything. 
 

Massive shutdowns didn’t help, and you can’t do them long term anyways. Right now a spotty vaccine and common sense is our best option. 

[AU9377 4,977]

9 hours ago, AUGunsmith said:

People are worth saving, but it isn't the states job to save them. It's the individuals. Those succeptable to covid deaths should be taking their own responsibility. Dying from obesity and covid it's the person's fault for being obese. The smokers fault for smoking. The drug addicts fault for using. 

The healthy who have died are just damn unlucky. It really sucks to have to say it, but it is what it is. 

Covid is a huge example of what if ism I think. The issues with schools and govt duty are purely ideological ones. 

Let people live. Let those who are willing to risk covid go about their lives. Let those who are scared protect themselves by isolating and quarantining. 

That all sounds simple until it is someone important in your life.  We are a better society than that.  The people I hear saying things like that are the very same people that claim this country was founded on Christian principles of morality and all that follows from that. If there is one principal more important than all others in Christianity it is to love your neighbor as yourself.  That means that everyone has a moral obligation to care for others.  Beyond the religious discussion, it is simply the right thing to do.

Schools all over the South are now closing and going virtual for a week, some two.  They aren't doing that because anyone is forcing them to do so.  They don't have a choice due to the number of sick kids and teachers. Walmart had to close over 25 stores for two days this past week for sanitation.  The number of their employees sick and the number of people getting the virus in their stores got to the point that they had to act.  Nobody forced them to do so.

[autigeremt 6,652]

19 hours ago, homersapien said:

  One of the basic reasons reasons for having a government is to protect us.  A viral pandemic is no different in that regard than an invasion from a foreign country.

Maybe so but it's hard to tell the difference sometimes. I think we've (US scientists, healthcare researchers and the like) done a damn good job at trying to figure out a stop gap with this virus. There's a lot of areas the government, over a stretch of decades, could have done a much better job at doing the peoples work. Instead it was about themselves and how they could benefit more than the masses. 

My opinion and I am sticking to it.

[homersapien 11,393]

19 hours ago, AUGunsmith said:

And this is a misunderstanding of what anarchy actually is. Governments aren't inevitable, merely the status quo. Governance and government are different things that most people supporting government ignore. Anarchy doesn't mean no rules. It doesn't mean chaos. It means people starting a business without half their income going to taxes. It means growing a garden without the government trampling it. 

Governmemts are barriers to natural human interaction. Governments always grow and become progressively more and more evil. 

 

Anarchy is the natural state of humans. Freedom is the natural state of existence. 

OK............

I contend that social organization - i.e.: "governments" however you want to define them - are the natural state of humans.  If not, we wouldn't see governments in virtually every country in the world.  Hell, we wouldn't have 'countries' in the first place.

Our job is to make government better not simply reject their relevance for some sort of idealistic substitute that is ultimately not workable. (The hippie movement back in the 60's for example.)

 

 

[homersapien 11,393]

1 hour ago, autigeremt said:

Maybe so but it's hard to tell the difference sometimes. I think we've (US scientists, healthcare researchers and the like) done a damn good job at trying to figure out a stop gap with this virus. There's a lot of areas the government, over a stretch of decades, could have done a much better job at doing the peoples work. Instead it was about themselves and how they could benefit more than the masses. 

My opinion and I am sticking to it.

No doubt.  But then, I would submit that "area" of government largely consists of the politicians we have elected to be there, which is ultimately on us.

[autigeremt 6,652]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

No doubt.  But then, I would submit that "area" of government largely consists of the politicians we have elected to be there, which is ultimately on us.

With a ton of shifting by big corporations and media interests. It's not OUR government like it should be. 

[homersapien 11,393]

31 minutes ago, autigeremt said:

With a ton of shifting by big corporations and media interests. It's not OUR government like it should be. 

Regarding that, the SCOTUS 'Citizens United' decision was a crushing blow to our progress, IMO.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by homersapien

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

6 hours ago, autigeremt said:

I think we've (US scientists, healthcare researchers and the like) done a damn good job at trying to figure out a stop gap with this virus.

Had COVID in December. J & J vaccine March. Ended up in hospital last Saturday night with COVID again. Infusion on Wednesday and home Thursday. I was infected more than likely by unvaccinated family member. The family member took my place in hospital on Thursday. Rough go but he is young and seems to be turning the corner. 
 

Agree, we have front line people doing tremendous work and can not say enough for them. My doctor and the infectious disease doctor only message is get vaccinated and use common sense…crowds. This thing is well past political.

Personally think our situation now could and should have been largely avoided. Amazing the resources, time…involved in each infection

[bigbird 60,571]

On 8/27/2021 at 10:26 AM, McLoofus said:

let's recommend contagion over preventative

Not wanting a back and forth, but want to make sure that you knew MMR, varicella, rotavirus, and influenza were all live, attenuated viral vaccines.

[bigbird 60,571]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:33 PM, wdefromtx said:

The government does have a responsibility to help protect the welfare of the general population.

And now we have a vaccine. They have provided, at no cost, the protection. If one chooses not to accept the protection, it's not the government's job or responsibility to make them.

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, bigbird said:

And now we have a vaccine. They have provided, at no cost, the protection. If one chooses not to accept the protection, it's not the government's job or responsibility to make them.

You know better than this.

It's not protection if people are running around doing whatever they want unvaccinated. 

As for attenuated viral vaccines, are you saying that's the exact same as contracting the virus from another person? Or, in not wanting a back and forth, are you just being pedantic?

[bigbird 60,571]

6 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

You know better than this.

It's not protection if people are running around doing whatever they want unvaccinated. 

As for attenuated viral vaccines, are you saying that's the exact same as contracting the virus from another person? Or, in not wanting a back and forth, are you just being pedantic?

Just trying to make sure you knew if you didn't.  There's a difference between natural/artificial and active/passive immunity. Here is a chart that might help explain it better.

 

Nothing I said was pedantic.

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Just trying to make sure you knew if you didn't.  There's a difference between natural/artificial and active/passive immunity. Here is a chart that might help explain it better.

 

Nothing I said was pedantic.

So you're saying that getting an attenuated viral vaccine is the same as getting the virus from another person. Because that is the alternative to you being pedantic. 

Yes, I do need to do some learning I guess.

[bigbird 60,571]

1 minute ago, McLoofus said:

So you're saying that getting an attenuated viral vaccine is the same as getting the virus from another person. Because that is the alternative to you being pedantic. 

Yes, I do need to do some learning I guess.

Yes, both a live virus vaccine and an active infection produce what is referred to as active immunity. The difference lies in if it is active of passive. The natural active immunity comes from the infection and  natural passive immunity comes from the live attenuated virus vaccines.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, bigbird said:

Yes, both a live virus vaccine and an active infection produce what is referred to as active immunity. The difference lies in if it is active of passive. The natural active immunity comes from the infection and  natural passive immunity comes from the live attenuated virus vaccines.

Oh, there is a very meaningful difference, as we all obviously already knew. So maybe you somehow misunderstood the point I was making earlier and that's why you chose to hone in on a minor semantic discrepancy instead of actually agreeing with or contradicting that point. Not because you are being pendantic. Gotcha.

[bigbird 60,571]

On 8/27/2021 at 10:26 AM, McLoofus said:

let's recommend contagion over preventative. 

 

5 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Oh, there is a very meaningful difference, as we all obviously already knew. 

Please explain the meaningful difference between the contagion that you referenced and active artificial immunity. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

7 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Please explain the meaningful difference between the contagion that you referenced and active artificial immunity. 

Please explain why you chose to comment on me saying the vaccine is less dangerous than contracting the actual virus.

[bigbird 60,571]

6 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Please explain why you chose to comment on me saying the vaccine is less dangerous than contracting the actual virus.

Why so defensive? 

 

I've already posted why I said what I did to you. Here it is again.

41 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Just trying to make sure you knew if you didn't.  There's a difference between natural/artificial and active/passive immunity. Here is a chart that might help explain it better.

 

Nothing I said was pedantic.

Nothing it that post could or should have been misconstrued. That's not on me.

 

So, now your turn.

 

14 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Please explain the meaningful difference between the contagion that you referenced and active artificial immunity. 

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, bigbird said:

Why so defensive? 

 

I've already posted why I said what I did to you. Here it is again.

So, now your turn.

I'm not being defensive. I'm very much on offense in this exchange. You stepped in to an exchange that didn't involve you to be pendantic. I simply pointed that out and you know it's true. No turn to take here. 

[bigbird 60,571]

1 minute ago, McLoofus said:

I'm not being defensive. I'm very much on offense in this exchange. You stepped in to an exchange that didn't involve you to be pendantic. I simply pointed that out and you know it's true. No turn to take here. 

So you can't explain the very meaningful difference, as we all obviously already knew.  Got it.

 

As far as being pedantic goes, I'm not sure you're using it correctly. You were wrong in your attempted assertion, I tried to make sure you had the correct information and presented it very politely. You became defensive. I'm okay stopping it here.

You're correct in one aspect though...

46 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

I do need to do some learning I guess.

 

[bigbird 60,571]

11 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

You stepped in to an exchange that didn't involve you to be pendantic