Prior infection >>>>>> vaccinates.

[AUGunsmith 666]

Huge study out of Israel is pretty damning to the ideas of needed vaccines for the healthy and vaxx passports and the like. 

 

https://unherd.com/thepost/bombshell-study-finds-natural-immunity-superior-to-vaccination/

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

[SLAG-91 1,483]

I've said my piece on the minimizing of the previously infected in all of this. I'd be willing to bet that re-infection rates (Covid, then Covid again) are significantly lower than breakthrough rates (vaccine, then Covid).

[autigeremt 6,652]

Not that my one sample size means anything but the first time I had Covid it kicked my arse. Took me three months to breath without some sort of respiratory backlash. The second time I had it (a year later) all that happened was the loss of taste and smell. It came back a month later. I got the Jansen a few months later and so far so good. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

Before long we'll be over 700,000 dead from the virus just in this country and we're projected to be close to 800,000 before the end of the year but yes, by all means, let's recommend contagion over preventative. 

By the way, my hospital currently has 156 Covid patients. 137 of them are not vaccinated. They don't report deaths to us so I won't be able to confirm how many of the 137 or how many of the remaining 19 died from Covid. 

Also, the booster will soon render this completely moot. 

[homersapien 11,393]

1 hour ago, SLAG-91 said:

I've said my piece on the minimizing of the previously infected in all of this. I'd be willing to bet that re-infection rates (Covid, then Covid again) are significantly lower than breakthrough rates (vaccine, then Covid).

I haven't seen any data on this specifically, but I am willing to bet you $50 you're wrong.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7021e3.htm

 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I haven't seen any data on this specifically, but I am willing to bet you $50 you're wrong.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7021e3.htm

 

That data is a little old now. Not sure it holds up due to the rapid spread of variants. But natural immunity may not protect as well against the same variants. I’d like to see data covering the last month, month in a half. Because around here at least the number of breakthrough cases has gone up dramatically.

[AU9377 4,977]

6 hours ago, AUGunsmith said:

Huge study out of Israel is pretty damning to the ideas of needed vaccines for the healthy and vaxx passports and the like. 

 

https://unherd.com/thepost/bombshell-study-finds-natural-immunity-superior-to-vaccination/

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

It isn't that simple.  The study is interesting, but  severity of the original infection makes a big difference in the protection produced and I don't see a breakdown of that.

[AUGunsmith 666]

1 minute ago, AU9377 said:

It isn't that simple.  The study is interesting, but  severity of the original infection makes a big difference in the protection produced and I don't see a breakdown of that.

I honestly know nothing about how severity relates to natural immunity. 

Ultimately even if we hit million dead, it's still less that .3% of the population with most of that number being not covid deaths, but deaths with covid compounding other serious issues. The economical and mental health shitstorm this has caused through govt interference is much worse. 

[AU9377 4,977]

2 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

I honestly know nothing about how severity relates to natural immunity. 

Ultimately even if we hit million dead, it's still less that .3% of the population with most of that number being not covid deaths, but deaths with covid compounding other serious issues. The economical and mental health shitstorm this has caused through govt interference is much worse. 

I understand that you believe that the number of Covid deaths has been inflated.  However, what if you are wrong and the number is actually an under count? Over 60% of the country has at least one factor that could contribute to someone's mortality.  However, if someone is a severe diabetic with COPD and is 70 years old... they get Covid and die in an ICU, they still would not have died but for Covid. Their death is still worth preventing.

Even without schools being closed by the State, you know what happened this past week?  Hundreds of schools closed.  Not because someone wanted them to close, but because so many kids and teachers are sick that they could not remain open.  When it comes to public health, the government has a duty to be involved. That has been the case for well over 100 years in this country and for centuries around the world.

[homersapien 11,393]

3 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

.....When it comes to public health, the government has a duty to be involved. That has been the case for well over 100 years in this country and for centuries around the world.

  One of the basic reasons reasons for having a government is to protect us.  A viral pandemic is no different in that regard than an invasion from a foreign country.

[AUGunsmith 666]

People are worth saving, but it isn't the states job to save them. It's the individuals. Those succeptable to covid deaths should be taking their own responsibility. Dying from obesity and covid it's the person's fault for being obese. The smokers fault for smoking. The drug addicts fault for using. 

The healthy who have died are just damn unlucky. It really sucks to have to say it, but it is what it is. 

Covid is a huge example of what if ism I think. The issues with schools and govt duty are purely ideological ones. 

Let people live. Let those who are willing to risk covid go about their lives. Let those who are scared protect themselves by isolating and quarantining. 

[AUGunsmith 666]

5 minutes ago, homersapien said:

  One of the basic reasons reasons for having a government is to protect us.  A viral pandemic is no different in that regard than an invasion from a foreign country.

 A purely ideological argument. 

[Leftfield 2,617]

4 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

 A purely ideological argument. 

So is this...

6 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

People are worth saving, but it isn't the states job to save them. It's the individuals.

 

[AUGunsmith 666]

1 minute ago, Leftfield said:

So is this...

 

easily arguably less so, but you're absolutely correct. It is. That's the point. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

 

Quote

Providing for the welfare of the general public is a basic goal of government. The preamble to the U.S. Constitution cites promotion of the general welfare as a primary reason for the creation of the Constitution. Promotion of the general welfare is also a stated purpose in state constitutions and statutes. The concept has sparked controversy only as a result of its inclusion in the body of the U.S. Constitution.

https://law.jrank.org/pages/7116/General-Welfare.html

[homersapien 11,393]

36 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

 A purely ideological argument. 

I think such a thesis would be relatively easy to support, as a practical issue.

But, why do you think governments developed (came into being).

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,393]

37 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

People are worth saving, but it isn't the states job to save them. It's the individuals. Those succeptable to covid deaths should be taking their own responsibility. Dying from obesity and covid it's the person's fault for being obese. The smokers fault for smoking. The drug addicts fault for using. 

The healthy who have died are just damn unlucky. It really sucks to have to say it, but it is what it is. 

Covid is a huge example of what if ism I think. The issues with schools and govt duty are purely ideological ones. 

Let people live. Let those who are willing to risk covid go about their lives. Let those who are scared protect themselves by isolating and quarantining. 

I seriously doubt that as individuals, we could have produced a covid vaccine in time to help (for just one example).

Are you suggesting that vaccines are not worth pursuing as a society?

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,393]

47 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

easily arguably less so, but you're absolutely correct. It is. That's the point. 

You do recognize that self protection / government protection is not a zero sum game? 

No one is arguing the governments have primary responsibility of protecting you in your daily activities. 

They each have their place.

Edited August 27, 2021 by homersapien

[AUGunsmith 666]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

First, I think such a thesis would be relatively easy to support.

But, why do you think governments developed and why?

 

A thesis based on ideology based on philosophy. We could both easily drop political philosophy which supports almost any claim to the role of the state. 

Why govts developed isn't as important as the philosophical and moral ethical arguments for how they should function and if they should exist. 

I see no reason for a state to exist. Leave governance up to voluntary association not forced participation through the monopoly on violence. 

[AUGunsmith 666]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I seriously doubt that as individuals, we could have produced a covid vaccine in time to help.

Are you suggesting that vaccines are not worth pursuing as a society?

 

I'm saying anything society and people value will be produced by the market. 

We didn't have the state make the vaccines anyways. 

[homersapien 11,393]

2 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

A thesis based on ideology based on philosophy. We could both easily drop political philosophy which supports almost any claim to the role of the state. 

Why govts developed isn't as important as the philosophical and moral ethical arguments for how they should function and if they should exist. 

I see no reason for a state to exist. Leave governance up to voluntary association not forced participation through the monopoly on violence. 

I don't think governments exist as a matter of philosophical preferences from the populace.  I think they exist as a result from the natural evolution of man (homo sapiens) as a result of advancing through the various stages of social evolution, possibly starting with agriculture (if not prior tribalization).

What you are talking about, on the other hand, is pure individualism/libertarianism which is obviously a purely ideological position.  It has no relevance to either history or current reality. 

[homersapien 11,393]

11 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

I'm saying anything society and people value will be produced by the market. 

We didn't have the state make the vaccines anyways. 

The same market that prompts that bigger tribe from up river to descends upon us to kill us all (except the women)?

And who exactly primed the pump on demand for that vaccine development/production?  (Hint: it wasn't millions of "go fund me" accounts.)

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,393]

15 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

Why govts developed isn't as important as the philosophical and moral ethical arguments for how they should function and if they should exist.

 

So, forget the past and whatever lessons it can provide us (which on the subject of government are myriad).

Let's just go on opinion based on what we'd like to see, never mind that would take us right back to governments.

 

[AUGunsmith 666]

11 minutes ago, homersapien said:

The same market that prompts that bigger tribe from up river to descends upon us to kill us all (except the women)?

And who exactly primed the pump on demand for that vaccine development/production?  (Hint: it wasn't millions of "go fund me" accounts.)

 

The vaccines were built in the backs of billions of dollars funneled from taxpayers to big pharma. It's the same argument as who would build the roads. Just because the state does it now doesn't mean it wouldn't exist without the state or didn exist before the state. 

We have many examples of stateless societies with local governance where the Boogeyman of statism didn run around taking over. 

The wild west is one such example of pretty impressive free market anarchist in action. 

13 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I don't think governments exist as a matter of philosophical preferences from the populace.  I think they exist as a result from the natural evolution of man (homo sapiens) as a result of advancing through the various stages of social evolution, possibly starting with agriculture (if not prior tribalization).

What you are talking about, on the other hand, is pure individualism/libertarianism which is obviously a purely ideological position.  It has no relevance to either history or current reality. 

Yea, we should never use our surerior intellect as humans to better situations. What do you think god kings are? Or Greece democracies. Or spartan war culture.  You try to claim you have no ideology in there, but that is verifiable hogswash.  Political philosophy has existed for the entirety of human existence. As good ideas came about political philosophy changes. 

Liberalism is the most important political philosophy in the history of the world, sure you want to fight over that?

[AUGunsmith 666]

8 minutes ago, homersapien said:

So, forget the past and whatever lessons it can provide us (which on the subject of government are myriad).

Let's just go on opinion based on what we'd like to see, never mind that would take us right back to governments.

 

Speak for yourself. You'd never see a sovereign monopoly on all violence in my world.