Free Speech Under Attack

[tomcat 569]

This is a bit incredulous…
 

https://www.al.com/education/2021/10/samford-disinvites-historian-after-student-anti-abortion-protest.html

[jj3jordan 2,061]

Leftists 1000-Rightists 1.  

[I_M4_AU 7,993]

Where have you been the last 10 years or so?

[AUDub 11,184]

10 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Leftists 1000-Rightists 1.  

Phht

 

[AU9377 5,038]

This decision does not speak well of education at Samford.  I don't understand why anyone would be so frightened by thoughts that may differ from their own that they cannot even bring themselves to listen.  The worst part is that he wasn't coming to discuss the topic of abortion.  I have to assume that they also would never allow someone to speak that has ever committed a sin against God.  Just kidding, we all know that buffet Baptists just pick and choose what they want to hate or forgive based on the direction of the wind.

I would also like to point out how this differs from decisions made by some schools and organizations to not allow known white supremacists to speak on campus.  There is a difference that exists between the two that I shouldn't have to explain.

[bigbird 60,580]

Silencing opposing views on college campuses isn't something that the left really want to get into is it? 

[CoffeeTiger 5,179]

On 10/31/2021 at 7:10 AM, bigbird said:

Silencing opposing views on college campuses isn't something that the left really want to get into is it? 

The silencing by the right doesn't get as much attention because a majority of Conservative, right leaning Colleges are going to be private, religiously affiliated institutions that don't have to abide by the same openness, and 'free speech' conditions that the more liberal, publicly funded colleges and Universities have to abide by. 

 

You get more of these situations at public college's where both Right and Left have to try and co-exist together and the college has to try and balance allowing both sides to have their speech and views protected. Conservative, private colleges have the luxury of only inviting speakers it agrees with,  it doesn't have to allow other viewpoints on it's campus, it can enact specials restrictions on student activities and on what it will allow students to organize. Normally, students with vastly different viewpoints on important issues wont attend the university anyway, and the college can deny them admittance if it wants to. 

 

Basically, Right leaning Universities are generally not going to invite or allow opposing viewpoints on their campus to begin with, whereas public universities don't have that luxury and this leads to protests by students and faculty who don't agree with the guests, speakers, ect. 

[AU9377 5,038]

On 10/31/2021 at 8:10 AM, bigbird said:

Silencing opposing views on college campuses isn't something that the left really want to get into is it? 

If it is a white supremacist, they have no place on a university campus.  Neither do flat earthers etc,, but at least the flat earthers don't hurt people, they just roll around in their own stupidity.

Edited November 2, 2021 by AU9377

[Grumps 3,704]

2 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

If it is a white supremacist, they have no place on a university campus.

Who gets to decide who meets that definition? I think it is crazy that Pulitzer prize-winner Jon Meacham isn't allowed to speak at Samford, but I suppose I could call him a baby-murderer and then he would have no place on a university campus. Was Thomas Jefferson a white supremacist? Would you like to hear him speak?

[bigbird 60,580]

18 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

If it is a white supremacist, they have no place on a university campus.  Neither do flat earthers etc,, but at least the flat earthers don't hurt people, they just roll around in their own stupidity.

That's where we differ.  To me free speech, is, and should be, protected no matter if I agree or not.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

1 hour ago, AU9377 said:

If it is a white supremacist, they have no place on a university campus.  Neither do flat earthers etc,, but at least the flat earthers don't hurt people, they just roll around in their own stupidity.

They deserve free speech as well. That way it makes idiots easier to recognize…..

[AU9377 5,038]

2 hours ago, bigbird said:

That's where we differ.  To me free speech, is, and should be, protected no matter if I agree or not.

It isn't about agreeing with the speech or not.  I fully support the right for hate groups to organize, parade thru the streets, etc.  When we talk about free speech in this country, it is the freedom from governmental restrictions and punishment.  However, these protections are not limitless. We limit speech for reasons including obscenity, fraud, child pornography, harassment, incitement to illegal conduct and imminent lawless action and a laundry list of other reasons.

Speaking on a college campus in an organized setting confers a degree of legitimacy on the speaker.  If someone wants to convince others of the merit of their view points, those view points cannot be obscene and if they are, they should not be given a platform that confers legitimacy.  I know, the next question will be who gets to make that determination?  There is no perfect answer, but in short, society decides.  Or, in the words of Justice Potter Stewart, you know it when you see it.

That is very different from political debate. Someone can be pro life or pro choice, neither is an opinion that rises to the level of hate speech and neither is obscene. 

[AU9377 5,038]

2 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

They deserve free speech as well. That way it makes idiots easier to recognize…..

They have free speech.  They can organize a parade, hand out flyers or whatever else they want, but they don't have to be provided a place to spew hatred on a university campus, which is why, at the end of the day, they were not.

[AU9377 5,038]

3 hours ago, Grumps said:

Who gets to decide who meets that definition? I think it is crazy that Pulitzer prize-winner Jon Meacham isn't allowed to speak at Samford, but I suppose I could call him a baby-murderer and then he would have no place on a university campus. Was Thomas Jefferson a white supremacist? Would you like to hear him speak?

It is insane that Samford would make that choice.  However, they are a private institution.  We cannot judge people that were alive in the time period that Thomas Jefferson lived by the moral standards of 2021.

Abortion is a real political debate.  Neither side, pro or against choice, should be prevented from speaking at a public university.  Those are legitimate political debates.  Neither the KKK or some Antifa group or a Mexican gang should provided the same respect.

[TexasTiger 13,016]

20 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

It is insane that Samford would make that choice.  However, they are a private institution.  We cannot judge people that were alive in the time period that Thomas Jefferson lived by the moral standards of 2021.

Abortion is a real political debate.  Neither side, pro or against choice, should be prevented from speaking at a public university.  Those are legitimate political debates.  Neither the KKK or some Antifa group or a Mexican gang should provided the same respect.

But that label is used much more broadly than in the past and there’s hardly consensus on how to apply it. 
 

But I still say the answer isn’t to silence David Duke and send him to forums in which he will not be challenged— the answer is to take him head on— fight bad ideas with better ideas. Show his flaws. We need to teach folks how to rationally challenge extremists and defeat them rhetorically. They will be heard, especially in this age. If folks can’t demonstrate his failures, we’re screwed.

[TexasTiger 13,016]

I’ll add, Jon Meacham is one of the most reasonable public persons in the country. If he’s disinvited to speak at Samford, that institution has become a tragic joke.

[AU9377 5,038]

12 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

But that label is used much more broadly than in the past and there’s hardly consensus on how to apply it. 
 

But I still say the answer isn’t to silence David Duke and send him to forums in which he will not be challenged— the answer is to take him head on— fight bad ideas with better ideas. Show his flaws. We need to teach folks how to rationally challenge extremists and defeat them rhetorically. They will be heard, especially in this age. If folks can’t demonstrate his failures, we’re screwed.

Those are fair points.  I would have no issue with someone deciding the issue one way or the other.  It is just my opinion that there are some voices that do not warrant the respect of being given the platform.

[jj3jordan 2,061]

7 hours ago, AU9377 said:

Those are fair points.  I would have no issue with someone deciding the issue one way or the other.  It is just my opinion that there are some voices that do not warrant the respect of being given the platform.

So you would be the arbiter of free speech.  That makes it not free.

[AU9377 5,038]

1 hour ago, jj3jordan said:

So you would be the arbiter of free speech.  That makes it not free.

Would you allow someone that wants to speak on the merits of sex with 12 year old girls to be allowed to speak on campus?

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

On 10/31/2021 at 7:10 AM, bigbird said:

Silencing opposing views on college campuses isn't something that the left really want to get into is it? 

Don't private schools like Liberty do this every day?

Ultimately Samford is a private school.  They owe no one grounds to speak on their campus.

If it was Auburn, Alabama, UAB, etc, then things change quickly.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Brad_ATX

[jj3jordan 2,061]

1 hour ago, AU9377 said:

Would you allow someone that wants to speak on the merits of sex with 12 year old girls to be allowed to speak on campus?

Would there be a reason for this topic? Is there a class who would benefit from this lecture?  If not, then no you don't get to occupy a classroom with students without being invited to do so.  This perp would ostensively as for permission to hold a lecture on the subject and my guess is he or she would be told no thank you.  Depending on who the pervert is though with numerous muslim men arriving at airports in the US with single digit aged girls accompanying them and claiming they are wives, you might not be on solid ground to deny access.  I don't blame Samford for standing up to the destructive evil that is abortion and the purveyors of it, Planned Parenthood. Good for them.  If the proposed speaker were to renounce his support for PP and publicly apologize to Samford then sure, I would trust that he is sincere.

[AU9377 5,038]

1 hour ago, jj3jordan said:

Would there be a reason for this topic? Is there a class who would benefit from this lecture?  If not, then no you don't get to occupy a classroom with students without being invited to do so.  This perp would ostensively as for permission to hold a lecture on the subject and my guess is he or she would be told no thank you.  Depending on who the pervert is though with numerous muslim men arriving at airports in the US with single digit aged girls accompanying them and claiming they are wives, you might not be on solid ground to deny access.  I don't blame Samford for standing up to the destructive evil that is abortion and the purveyors of it, Planned Parenthood. Good for them.  If the proposed speaker were to renounce his support for PP and publicly apologize to Samford then sure, I would trust that he is sincere.

He certainly doesn't owe Samford an apology.  Good Lord. 

As for the original hypothetical and question.... I agree that the perv shouldn't be allowed to speak on campus.  For those same reasons, the white supremacist should not be allowed to speak either.

[jj3jordan 2,061]

8 hours ago, AU9377 said:

He certainly doesn't owe Samford an apology.  Good Lord. 

As for the original hypothetical and question.... I agree that the perv shouldn't be allowed to speak on campus.  For those same reasons, the white supremacist should not be allowed to speak either.

Never said he owed Samford an apology. Good Lord.

[Grumps 3,704]

On 11/1/2021 at 10:58 PM, AU9377 said:

It is insane that Samford would make that choice.  However, they are a private institution.  We cannot judge people that were alive in the time period that Thomas Jefferson lived by the moral standards of 2021.

Abortion is a real political debate.  Neither side, pro or against choice, should be prevented from speaking at a public university.  Those are legitimate political debates.  Neither the KKK or some Antifa group or a Mexican gang should provided the same respect.

I agree with you that it would be inappropriate to have a speaker come to promote the KKK or antifa or gang violence, but it would be completely different for someone who was reported to have ties to one of these organizations but who has also excelled in a specific area (like some scientific breakthrough, for example) to come and speak on his/her area of expertise.

[AU9377 5,038]

On 11/2/2021 at 11:58 PM, Brad_ATX said:

Don't private schools like Liberty do this every day?

Ultimately Samford is a private school.  They owe no one grounds to speak on their campus.

If it was Auburn, Alabama, UAB, etc, then things change quickly.

They do it every day. 24/7