Trump wants to hand Ukraine to Putin. He has the fringe right ready to help him do that.

[AU9377 5,043]

Our European allies have seen this before.  The question is what will we do?

https://www.reuters.com/world/european-lawmakers-send-plea-congress-ukraine-aid-2023-12-11/

[I_M4_AU 8,003]

2 Things:

1. Trump is NOT the President and the *war* will be over by the time the election is upon us.

2. When the people that the war will affect the most begs the US to send money, the situation is not as urgent as everybody seems to think it is.

[KansasTiger 3,256]

Is not giving them any more money the same as handing it over? I just want to be clear how we are defining terms now. 

[AU9377 5,043]

4 hours ago, KansasTiger said:

Is not giving them any more money the same as handing it over? I just want to be clear how we are defining terms now. 

Most of the funding isn't actually sending them money to spend as they wish.  The aid pays for weapons and ammunition, in addition to other systems that are produced in the U.S. and then sent to Ukraine.  This is another issue that shouldn't be 100% political in its debate.  You can't actually believe that Trump will work with NATO and be firm with Putin.  If you do believe that, I have no idea what evidence you have to back that up.  Of course, that also depends on if Trump wins the election, which is still highly unlikely.

[KansasTiger 3,256]

7 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

Most of the funding isn't actually sending them money to spend as they wish.  The aid pays for weapons and ammunition, in addition to other systems that are produced in the U.S. and then sent to Ukraine.  This is another issue that shouldn't be 100% political in its debate.  You can't actually believe that Trump will work with NATO and be firm with Putin.  If you do believe that, I have no idea what evidence you have to back that up.  Of course, that also depends on if Trump wins the election, which is still highly unlikely.

Your naivety when it comes to accountability of where our goods go once shipped is laughable. We're making goods that end up in warlords' hands in the middle east and Africa. So no. I dont want to fund them in any conceivable way.

Keep kidding yourself on Trump's chances in respect to the poll numbers I've been showing you all. If you're not at least facing the fact that he has a legitimate shot, you're delusional.

Edited December 12, 2023 by KansasTiger

[auburnatl1 5,056]

1 hour ago, KansasTiger said:

Your naivety when it comes to accountability of where our goods go once shipped is laughable. We're making goods that end up in warlords' hands in the middle east and Africa. So no. I dont want to fund them in any conceivable way.

Keep kidding yourself on Trump's chances in respect to the poll numbers I've been showing you all. If you're not at least facing the fact that he has a legitimate shot, you're delusional.

Since odds are you haven’t been to Ukraine recently, you’re getting your news from a source. Just like everyone else.  But Im guessing yours is the right one. Naive vs conspiracy oriented. People listen to what feeds their narrative.

But we agree on trumps chances.  Theyre real.  

[KansasTiger 3,256]

14 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Since odds are you haven’t been to Ukraine recently, you’re getting your news from a source. Just like everyone else.  But Im guessing yours is the right one. Naive vs conspiracy oriented. People listen to what feeds their narrative.

But we agree on trumps chances.  Theyre real.  

Not a conspiracy.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-military-aid-weapons-front-lines/

30-40% of equipment was making it to the battlefield. Awful numbers. CBS amended the article slightly after it pissed off Ukraine, bug surprise.

[auburnatl1 5,056]

44 minutes ago, KansasTiger said:

Not a conspiracy.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-military-aid-weapons-front-lines/

30-40% of equipment was making it to the battlefield. Awful numbers. CBS amended the article slightly after it pissed off Ukraine, bug surprise.

I remember this. Early in the war.  There was an audit done. This article is from summer 2022.  My understanding was logistics and corruption was resolved a year ago.

Regardless - Ukraine runs against maga doctrine. America first. Even if strategically it benefits us.  The funny thing is in both Ukraine and Israel - we’ve got others fighting the bad guys for us. When/if Taiwan happens (which if we acquiesce on Ukraine the odds increase on), that won’t be the case. And if people don’t think we’ won’t frantically support Taiwan, they don’t understand where our tech is currently manufactured. Potentially more critical than oil.

[KansasTiger 3,256]

49 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

I remember this. Early in the war.  There was an audit done. This article is from summer 2022.  My understanding was logistics and corruption was resolved a year ago.

Regardless - Ukraine runs against maga doctrine. America first. Even if strategically it benefits us.  The funny thing is in both Ukraine and Israel - we’ve got others fighting the bad guys for us. When/if Taiwan happens (which if we acquiesce on Ukraine the odds increase on), that won’t be the case. And if people don’t think we’ won’t frantically support Taiwan, they don’t understand where our tech is currently manufactured. Potentially more critical than oil.

Edit: one of the most corrupt countries in Europe, a place that makes Washington look like a convent, magically resolved its corruption with a hasty audit. Ok 😂. Or maybe, just maybe, they lied...

My god, you're like a perfectly programmed early 2000's neocon. I guess I shouldn't be shocked with some of the politicians you've floated that you liked. And I'm not trying to say this as some insult. It's more just a final realization I'm coming to.

It's not just about America first, which you can say is MAGA, but then I guess George Washington was MAGA, too. But the neocon philosophy keeps us in a perpetual state of war. There's always some strategic advantage, some poor country that if we don't help the world will collapse, and they'll feed you the narrative its life or death every time and youll eat it up. 

There's a clip of General Wesley Clark back in 2007 probably divulging info he shouldn't have. He came across a memo from the Secretary of Defense that outlined 7 countries the US was going to go to war with: Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Iran. We didnt quite follow the 5 year timeline, but we've been in 6 of the 7. Just Iran to go. 

 

Truth is, they always had a plan, and neocons will always find and manufacture a reason to go to war to justify that plan. At some point, people need to stop believing them.

Edited December 13, 2023 by KansasTiger

[auburnatl1 5,056]

38 minutes ago, KansasTiger said:

Edit: one of the most corrupt countries in Europe, a place that makes Washington look like a convent, magically resolved its corruption with a hasty audit. Ok 😂. Or maybe, just maybe, they lied...

My god, you're like a perfectly programmed early 2000's neocon. I guess I shouldn't be shocked with some of the politicians you've floated that you liked. And I'm not trying to say this as some insult. It's more just a final realization I'm coming to.

It's not just about America first, which you can say is MAGA, but then I guess George Washington was MAGA, too. But the neocon philosophy keeps us in a perpetual state of war. There's always some strategic advantage, some poor country that if we don't help the world will collapse, and they'll feed you the narrative its life or death every time and youll eat it up. 

There's a clip of General Wesley Clark back in 2007 probably divulging info he shouldn't have. He came across a memo from the Secretary of Defense that outlined 7 countries the US was going to go to war with: Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Iran. We didnt quite follow the 5 year timeline, but we've been in 6 of the 7. Just Iran to go. 

 

Truth is, they always had a plan, and neocons will always find and manufacture a reason to go to war to justify that plan. At some point, people need to stop believing them.

Respectfully, the bush’s were overseas-crazy “neocons” (as the right uses the term today).  So let’s do yet another 180 policy extreme  - maga - anything more than 20 miles from anyone’s front door doesn’t affect us. Simple enough.  Until it does. Like when people couldn’t get cars in 2021 because of the chip shortage (Taiwan covid).

Damn we struggle with balance. Save the world or hide in the bathroom.

As I mentioned in a post once,  I lived overseas for over 15 years until 2016. Including 2 inTel Aviv, 3 in Bucharest. At least 20 Kyiv trips. I promise I get it and have witnessed first hand Eastern Europe and Russian corruption, oligarchs, ect.  Logistics absolutely needs to be managed and audited. 

Bottom line - this isn’t Afghanistan .  Ukraine and Israel matter. Candidly Putin and Xi are playing long game chess and love the term neocon. Theyre counting on it.

 

 

 

[KansasTiger 3,256]

3 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Respectfully, the bush’s were overseas-crazy “neocons” (as the right uses the term today).  So let’s do yet another 180 policy extreme  - maga - anything more than 20 miles from anyone’s front door doesn’t affect us. Simple enough.  Until it does. Like when people couldn’t get cars in 2021 because of the chip shortage (Taiwan covid).

Damn we struggle with balance. Save the world or hide in the bathroom.

As I mentioned in a post once,  I lived overseas for over 15 years until 2016. Including 2 inTel Aviv, 3 in Bucharest. At least 20 Kyiv trips. I promise I get it and have witnessed first hand Eastern Europe and Russian corruption, oligarchs, ect.  Logistics absolutely needs to be managed and audited. 

Bottom line - this isn’t Afghanistan .  Ukraine and Israel matter. Candidly Putin and Xi are playing long game chess and love the term neocon. Theyre counting on it.

 

 

 

Struggle with balance? We haven't stopped fighting crazy overseas wars since Bush, and he left office a while ago. I didn't say we needed to stop interacting with the world, just stop throwing arms at every country that gets into a conflict, since we have some of our own problems we keep ignoring.

You act like we go about this responsibly when we do decide to get involved (which is constantly), instead of arming gangs and rebels that come back to bite us, drone strike civilians, leave behind arms for future terrorists, and end up creating more enemies in the process.

You're not the only person who lived overseas. I spent years living and traveling all over east Asia, and was stationed in Japan running war exercises against a China invasion of Taiwan. 

If you honestly believe Ukraine matters, you should be clamoring for a ceasefire to save lives, not using Ukranian lives in some strategic plan to hold off and weaken Russia.

[auburnatl1 5,056]

Just now, KansasTiger said:

Struggle with balance? We haven't stopped fighting crazy overseas wars since Bush, and he left office a while ago. I didn't say we needed to stop interacting with the world, just stop throwing arms at every country that gets into a conflict, since we have some of our own problems we keep ignoring.

You act like we go about this responsibly when we do decide to get involved (which is constantly), instead of arming gangs and rebels that come back to bite us, drone strike civilians, leave behind arms for future terrorists, and end up creating more enemies in the process.

You're not the only person who lived overseas. I spent years living and traveling all over east Asia, and was stationed in Japan running war exercises against a China invasion of Taiwan. 

If you honestly believe Ukraine matters, you should be clamoring for a ceasefire to save lives, not using Ukranian lives in some strategic plan to hold off and weaken Russia.

I agree that this conflict is nearing a stalemate and beginning to just chew up lives and $. Ukraine needs to understand they won’t get everything they want forever and need to start planning about the end game.  This has to happen privately.

What drives me crazy about Trump and the maga’ites is that they’re running around yapping about America first and they’re going to pull budget.  Dear lord it’s pre-k.  If this isn’t done privately, by grown ups, Putin will obviously just wait for budgets to freeze and then annihilate. Wasting and losing everything.

I don’t think this is mind bending stuff. Right?

[AU9377 5,043]

1 hour ago, KansasTiger said:

Edit: one of the most corrupt countries in Europe, a place that makes Washington look like a convent, magically resolved its corruption with a hasty audit. Ok 😂. Or maybe, just maybe, they lied...

My god, you're like a perfectly programmed early 2000's neocon. I guess I shouldn't be shocked with some of the politicians you've floated that you liked. And I'm not trying to say this as some insult. It's more just a final realization I'm coming to.

It's not just about America first, which you can say is MAGA, but then I guess George Washington was MAGA, too. But the neocon philosophy keeps us in a perpetual state of war. There's always some strategic advantage, some poor country that if we don't help the world will collapse, and they'll feed you the narrative its life or death every time and youll eat it up. 

There's a clip of General Wesley Clark back in 2007 probably divulging info he shouldn't have. He came across a memo from the Secretary of Defense that outlined 7 countries the US was going to go to war with: Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Iran. We didnt quite follow the 5 year timeline, but we've been in 6 of the 7. Just Iran to go. 

 

Truth is, they always had a plan, and neocons will always find and manufacture a reason to go to war to justify that plan. At some point, people need to stop believing them.

I'm the last person that believes we should be in a perpetual state of war.  I am well aware of the danger of the military complex and of the portion of our budget that feeds our always increasing military spending.  That is not the same discussion as the discussion over our involvement in international affairs.  We cannot turn a blind eye to events around the world and expect those events to simply resolve themselves and not impact us in any way.

I have a good friend who is a U.S. Congressman.  Most decisions made are done so with good intentions.  We have an incredibly egregious problem with greed in this country.  That greed comes from the people up and it is the source of our budget problems and many other issues driving some people's distrust in everything government related.

If you believe that everything is driven by some shadow government or group of neocons looking to profit from the next conflict, you are honestly off base.  There are those that are hawkish, those that are influenced by military contractors and those that distrust everything that doesn't benefit their wallet, but everything isn't spurned by their actions. 

I won't go on and on.

[KansasTiger 3,256]

2 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

I'm the last person that believes we should be in a perpetual state of war.  I am well aware of the danger of the military complex and of the portion of our budget that feeds our always increasing military spending.  That is not the same discussion as the discussion over our involvement in international affairs.  We cannot turn a blind eye to events around the world and expect those events to simply resolve themselves and not impact us in any way.

I have a good friend who is a U.S. Congressman.  Most decisions made are done so with good intentions.  We have an incredibly egregious problem with greed in this country.  That greed comes from the people up and it is the source of our budget problems and many other issues driving some people's distrust in everything government related.

If you believe that everything is driven by some shadow government or group of neocons looking to profit from the next conflict, you are honestly off base.  There are those that are hawkish, those that are influenced by military contractors and those that distrust everything that doesn't benefit their wallet, but everything isn't spurned by their actions. 

I won't go on and on.

I'm shocked you of all people called me off-base. We've agreed on so much in the past. Thanks for not going on.

[KansasTiger 3,256]

9 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

I agree that this conflict is nearing a stalemate and beginning to just chew up lives and $. Ukraine needs to understand they won’t get everything they want forever and need to start planning about the end game.  This has to happen privately.

What drives me crazy about Trump and the maga’ites is that they’re running around yapping about America first and they’re going to pull budget.  Dear lord it’s pre-k.  If this isn’t done privately, by grown ups, Putin will obviously just wait for budgets to freeze and then annihilate. Wasting and losing everything.

I don’t think this is mind bending stuff. Right?

Well, I agree with your first paragraph, though I'm sure we disagree about the timing and I think that conversation needed to happen much sooner, and could have but we trashed potential peace talks on purpose. 

I know you don't, but if you honestly believed everything I've laid out, and that warmongers just want to keep throwing money and arms and keep grinding away lives, you'd try and stop funding it, too.

It's about perspective. We have different ones, but I can respect that.

[AU9377 5,043]

30 minutes ago, KansasTiger said:

Struggle with balance? We haven't stopped fighting crazy overseas wars since Bush, and he left office a while ago. I didn't say we needed to stop interacting with the world, just stop throwing arms at every country that gets into a conflict, since we have some of our own problems we keep ignoring.

You act like we go about this responsibly when we do decide to get involved (which is constantly), instead of arming gangs and rebels that come back to bite us, drone strike civilians, leave behind arms for future terrorists, and end up creating more enemies in the process.

You're not the only person who lived overseas. I spent years living and traveling all over east Asia, and was stationed in Japan running war exercises against a China invasion of Taiwan. 

If you honestly believe Ukraine matters, you should be clamoring for a ceasefire to save lives, not using Ukranian lives in some strategic plan to hold off and weaken Russia.

There are times when covert actions are absolutely necessary.  They aren't always justified, but many times they are undertaken in order to avoid larger problems that would require a much greater involvement on our part.  We haven't been "fighting crazy overseas wars" since Bush left office, unless you consider the occupation of Afghanistan an overseas war.

There is no justification for Russia's actions regarding Ukraine.

[KansasTiger 3,256]

Just now, AU9377 said:

There are times when covert actions are absolutely necessary.  They aren't always justified, but many times they are undertaken in order to avoid larger problems that would require a much greater involvement on our part.  We haven't been "fighting crazy overseas wars" since Bush left office, unless you consider the occupation of Afghanistan an overseas war.

There is no justification for Russia's actions regarding Ukraine.

Oh and you promised me you wouldn't go on!

"Unless you consider Afghanistan an overseas war". That's funny right there. 

[tomcat 569]

13 hours ago, KansasTiger said:

Your naivety when it comes to accountability of where our goods go once shipped is laughable. We're making goods that end up in warlords' hands in the middle east and Africa. So no. I dont want to fund them in any conceivable way.

Keep kidding yourself on Trump's chances in respect to the poll numbers I've been showing you all. If you're not at least facing the fact that he has a legitimate shot, you're delusional.

While I fully support Israel’s right to defend itself, it is doubtful their military would have its current strength without US funding. I do not know, but wonder what level of accountability is there.

BTW…current Republican posturing tying funds for Ukraine and Israel to “border security” is a callous blurring of issues that should be handled separately. Both parties have had ample opportunities to reshape immigration, but cannot formulate a plan or cooperate with each other. Really stupid to embrace funding inaction  that reinvigorates Putin as he tries to recreate the Russia of the 1960s and also hamstrings Israel.

[AU9377 5,043]

10 hours ago, KansasTiger said:

Oh and you promised me you wouldn't go on!

"Unless you consider Afghanistan an overseas war". That's funny right there. 

It is literally impossible to have a meaningful discussion about world affairs with someone that believes that there is some secret cabal planning and instigating those world affairs.  Shocking as it may be, there are many different actors with just as many motivations and interests involved.  The result is often messy, but the alternative is chaos. 

[KansasTiger 3,256]

17 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

It is literally impossible to have a meaningful discussion about world affairs with someone that believes that there is some secret cabal planning and instigating those world affairs.  Shocking as it may be, there are many different actors with just as many motivations and interests involved.  The result is often messy, but the alternative is chaos. 

I never made the argument there's a "secret cabal". You keep putting that phrase on me. I simply presented a video showing the US pre-planned military action in 7 different countries and then started executing to it. They went out seeking war. Hardly the narrative they presented to the public during those campaigns. And your only commentary on that is, "you're so off base I can't have a meaningful discussion with you".

Then dont.

Edited December 13, 2023 by KansasTiger

[AU9377 5,043]

4 hours ago, KansasTiger said:

I never made the argument there's a "secret cabal". You keep putting that phrase on me. I simply presented a video showing the US pre-planned military action in 7 different countries and then started executing to it. They went out seeking war. Hardly the narrative they presented to the public during those campaigns. And your only commentary on that is, "you're so off base I can't have a meaningful discussion with you".

Then dont.

I have no doubt that the military has contingency plans detailing a military conflict with another 10 countries as well.  They should have those plans as part of their overall preparedness around the globe.  The problem is that all conflicts are not alike.  We should have never gone full tilt invasion and occupation in Iraq.  In contrast, we had every right to obliterate Afghanistan.  The fools errand was staying there for 20 years believing that the minds of extremists could actually be changed.

[KansasTiger 3,256]

16 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

I have no doubt that the military has contingency plans detailing a military conflict with another 10 countries as well.  They should have those plans as part of their overall preparedness around the globe.  The problem is that all conflicts are not alike.  We should have never gone full tilt invasion and occupation in Iraq.  In contrast, we had every right to obliterate Afghanistan.  The fools errand was staying there for 20 years believing that the minds of extremists could actually be changed.

I think its funny you don't think Gen Clark knows the difference between waging war and contingency plans. That or you didn't watch the clip.

[auburnatl1 5,056]

48 minutes ago, KansasTiger said:

I think it’s funny you don't think Gen Clark knows the difference between waging war and contingency plans. That or you didn't watch the clip.

The damage and skepticism that Iraq and Afghanistan caused to our nation psyche is deeply debilitating us.  And China and Russia sense this. As long as they don’t drop a bomb in each persons backyard, they’re good.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

How long do we spend 10x more on the military than any other country in the world?  How long does that need to last in order to feel secure?  Does this spending represent security or,,, corruption?