Can we quit praising the supposed excellence of the IDF?

[TexasTiger 13,026]

19 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

Nope. 

Not sure why you’re so hyper defensive about my assertion. I’m not accusing them of murder or even saying they should be disciplined. I get that circumstances or challenging and humans make mistakes. But We’ve been told they’re the best at this. Perhaps that reputation isn’t well deserved.

[Gowebb11 9,381]

8 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Not sure why you’re so hyper defensive about my assertion. I’m not accusing them of murder or even saying they should be disciplined. I get that circumstances or challenging and humans make mistakes. But We’ve been told they’re the best at this. Perhaps that reputation isn’t well deserved.

I’m answering your questions. What’s defensive about that? Perhaps their reputation is super well deserved as I believe it is. If I were a soldier again there’s not another Army in the world I would rather serve with. I make my assertion from years as a soldier. So we view this situation differently. 

[SaltyTiger 7,864]

47 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Urban warfare is as dangerous and mistake prone as it gets. This needs (needed) to wind down quickly. 

Great post. Look at what Fort Benning ( now Moore) has invested in urban warfare facilities vs the old range projects. Extremely complicated warfare.

[auburnatl1 5,056]

51 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

Nope. 

Man for man the idf is universally respected. Again fighting on open terrain is way preferable to street warfare. Ps  after almost 2 years of fighting the Russians - the Ukrainians are probably way up there.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

7 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Man for man the idf is universally respected. Again fighting on open terrain is way preferable to street warfare. Ps  after almost 2 years of fighting the Russians - the Ukrainians are probably way up there.

They have a great reputation, but is it based on other types of missions, not what they are being asked to do now?

Israel has an excellent air force and elite special-operations units, but its conventional line units—made up mostly of conscripts—are neither particularly well trained nor well disciplined by American standards. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/israeli-military-vulnerable-war-hamas/675591/

https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/08/09/despite-grave-manpower-crisis-idf-releasing-dozens-of-officers-from-career-service/

[SaltyTiger 7,864]

32 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

But We’ve been told they’re the best at this.

Bo Jackson was the best ever at what he did Tex but recall him going the wrong way in 84. Crap sadly happens.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

1 minute ago, SaltyTiger said:

Bo Jackson was the best ever at what he did Tex but recall him going the wrong way in 84. Crap sadly happens.

That’s one hell of an analogy.

[auburnatl1 5,056]

8 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Great post. Look at what Fort Benning ( now Moore) has invested in urban warfare facilities vs the old range projects. Extremely complicated warfare.

Yep. Technology like tanks and attack helicopters like deserts and prairie a whole lot better than cities and jungles.

All that being said, I do think Israel needs to end this quickly. Besides ethics, and wasted lives and infrastructure, strategically they’re going to lose more they win.

[SaltyTiger 7,864]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

That’s one hell of an analogy.

What other analogy can there be other than someone screwed up. 

[TexasTiger 13,026]

1 minute ago, SaltyTiger said:

What other analogy can there be other than someone screwed up. 

If all screw ups are identical analogies aren’t needed. 3 people die, RB gets stuffed. Same thing.

[auburnatl1 5,056]

4 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

They have a great reputation, but is it based on other types of missions, not what they are being asked to do now?

Israel has an excellent air force and elite special-operations units, but its conventional line units—made up mostly of conscripts—are neither particularly well trained nor well disciplined by American standards. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/israeli-military-vulnerable-war-hamas/675591/

https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/08/09/despite-grave-manpower-crisis-idf-releasing-dozens-of-officers-from-career-service/

Nobody said their main line army is super hero’s. It’s a required draft - 3 yrs for men, 2 for women. I agree what they’re renowned for are the pilots and elite forces. 

[TexasTiger 13,026]

Just now, auburnatl1 said:

Nobody said their main line army is super hero’s. It’s a required draft - 3 yrs for men, 2 for women. I agree what they’re renowned for are the pilots and elite forces. 

Isn’t the mainline army being used in this mission?

[auburnatl1 5,056]

Just now, TexasTiger said:

Isn’t the mainline army being used in this mission?

Not sure what your point is. Theyre not gods but they’ve been invaded 5 times by far superior numbers - and won handily each time. Theyre not bad.

What happened was tragic but people make mistakes. Which is why this needs to wind down.

[SaltyTiger 7,864]

14 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

If all screw ups are identical analogies aren’t needed. 3 people die, RB gets stuffed. Same thing.

Screw ups are not identical and you know better. Did not like the “ praise” this morning and don’t now.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

24 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Screw ups are not identical and you know better. Did not like the “ praise” this morning and don’t now.

Mistakes happen. But “elite” has to mean something.

[SaltyTiger 7,864]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

Mistakes happen. But “elite” has to mean something.

Used to call it a buzz word didn’t we?  Hate it and I’m sure you do. “Elite”. 

[auburnatl1 5,056]

I wonder how military history would be different if everyone had had a smart phone with a hi res video/camera - and able to post any incident to a global audience in less than 30 secs.

[Mims44 1,890]

12 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

Screw ups are not identical and you know better. Did not like the “ praise” this morning and don’t now.

Agree

Once missed out on a fumble recovery cause I got hit from the side as I tried to lean down and grab the ball. Should have just fell on it... That was a mistake.

If I trained my rifle on some unarmed local nationals and started firing I feel like that'd be a bit more than a whoopsie daisy.

 

11 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Mistakes happen. But “elite” has to mean something.

It's subjective to who/where you are applying the word.

"Elite" for a lot of countries in the world is akin to "average grunt" in America.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

13 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Not sure what your point is. Theyre not gods but they’ve been invaded 5 times by far superior numbers - and won handily each time. Theyre not bad.

What happened was tragic but people make mistakes. Which is why this needs to wind down.

Not sure why my point is so hard to follow. Mistakes happen. People err. People panic and overreact. The IDF, though, has a reputation for being exceptionally disciplined and well-trained. They were on a mission to rescue hostages. It’s not like they didn’t know hostages were taken. The hostages had the presence of mind to do everything possible to avoid being shot. They removed their shirts to show they weren’t strapped with explosives, waived a white flag, spoke Hebrew. Two were immediately killed. One ran back into the building when fired upon. The commander ordered them to stop shooting. They continued shooting and killed the remaining guy. Understandable that especially young or poorly disciplined troops might overreact, ignore orders? Sure. But everything we know about this screams catastrophic failure. I can easily imagine young troops we send to war zones doing the same thing. War is, in fact, hell. But I’ve seen the IDF elevated to status well above about every other country’s force. And yet, something like this happens. So, yes, all the more reason to proceed cautiously, wind down, etc. What I’ve been concerned about from the start was Israel seeming too gung ho and not deliberately methodical in this operation. 
 
Of course, the IDF over a period of decades has beaten inferior opponents. Built a reputation on it. Perhaps the elite units are still truly elite. But they are relying on conscripts now for much of this mission and there’s no reason to think they are any better than most of our allies.

The military says they don’t shoot Gazans waving white flags. Does anyone still believe that?

[icanthearyou 4,463]

I would be more concerned with the failure in detecting Hamas' plans prior to the attack and,,, the extremely slow response to the attacks.

 

[auburnatl1 5,056]

1 minute ago, icanthearyou said:

I would be more concerned with the failure in detecting Hamas' plans prior to the attack and,,, the extremely slow response to the attacks.

 

I agree. I’ve had Israelis brag to me that you literally couldn’t get a toy boat in from the med without their tech and security knowing it… Failures everywhere.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

28 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

I would be more concerned with the failure in detecting Hamas' plans prior to the attack and,,, the extremely slow response to the attacks.

 

That’s huge, of course, and Israelis confidence in the security provided by their government must be shaken. But also imagine what it’s like to be the family member of those three hostages— after weeks of agonizing your family member is free and running toward supposed safety and gunned down despite having hands raised and shirts off, tens of meters away.

[homersapien 11,452]

On 12/17/2023 at 10:14 AM, Mikey said:

"War Is Hell"~~~General William T. Sherman.

That sounds like Hamas trying to justify their terrorism Oct. 7

[auburnatl1 5,056]

29 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

That’s huge, of course, and Israelis confidence in the security provided by their government must be shaken. But also imagine what it’s like to be the family member of those three hostages— after weeks of agonizing your family member is free and running toward supposed safety and gunned down despite having hands raised and shirts off, tens of meters away.

It’d obviously be a nightmare. Stress, anger, and tragic mistakes.

A perspective. The Israeli military is unique. No one starts college until they’re 21-23. It’s not so much conscript as it’s … everyone. Straight out of high school. Men and women. Part of their culture Some American Jews take part in it. Bear in mind Israel is less than 10 million people surrounded by Arab countries totaling about 300 million. Thats like Houston vs the entire country. Add that half the Arab countries don’t recognize their right to exist and have been invaded and bombed countless times - and you have an Israeli psyche that starts at childhood. With murdered Israeli babies on video and the stress of urban warfare - this needs to stop soon or it will get worse.
 

 

 

[TexasTiger 13,026]

22 hours ago, Gowebb11 said:

How old and experienced were the soldiers

Were the soldiers taking a post lunch break walk in an assumed safe area when they encountered the victims or were they just leaving a bloody fire fight 

Was the sun in their eyes

Did it happen in a well lit open area or a crowded dark space

Did the victims “pop out” suddenly or did the soldiers have ample time to react to their presence  

Was there a presence of other gunfire or mortar fire in the area  

There are countless scenarios. Same for cops.  My ask is reasonable: don't judge until all of the facts and context are known.  I’m perhaps biased since I have shared the experience of a soldier in harms way.   

 

I’m generally sympathetic to law enforcement and military personnel needing to make split second decisions. I’ve worked with a number of police officers over the years and even had a good friend killed in a situation that most would not have considered high risk. I’m reluctant to hold them criminally accountable for errors in judgment under such circumstances. 

My father served two tours in Vietnam and told me how the VC would place bombs in baby carriages and that one could never let their guard down. I’m sympathetic to those challenges, too.

We may yet get additional information, but unlike many situations in which accusations and characterizations are made against law enforcement, the info we have is from the Israeli military. They are fighting in an urban landscape supposedly with directions to not shoot apparent civilians with their hands up. They are said to be on a mission to rescue hostages. From what we’ve been told, hands were raised and visibly holding nothing but a white flag. Shirts were off, and they were speaking Hebrew. Was it still possible the 3 men could pose some threat? It’s possible. But they were tens of meters away with hands raised and no obvious weapons. Had one moved suddenly as if to reach into a pocket, I could better understand the reaction to initially fire. No indication of that and one would assume they’d at least have that info when they released the story. In a scenario where one mistakenly perceives an imminent threat it’s usually because they appear to have a weapon in their hand or are reaching suddenly for something. I usually understand those reactions. Even with the heightened sense of risk inherent to that environment, there seemed ample time to instruct them to lay down with arms outstretched. Might they still have small explosives in their pockets? Strapped to their thighs? Possibly. But they were tens of meters away so there was time to assess the situation as long as there was no obvious imminent threat.
 

After having initially gunned down 2 of them with hands raised a commander ordered them to stop. They continued to shoot at the one who had run into the building that, again, showed no obvious imminent threat.

Still, would I want criminal action against an 18-20 year old thrust in this situation absent some strange evidence that he’d previously said he’d shoot anyone on sight? No. I imagine he feels devastated. My only point is there is a mythology surrounding the IDF that doesn’t seem warranted.