Can we quit praising the supposed excellence of the IDF?

[TexasTiger 13,026]

Wow. Just wow.

https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-778272

[Mikey 16,738]

"War Is Hell"~~~General William T. Sherman.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

13 minutes ago, Mikey said:

"War Is Hell"~~~General William T. Sherman.

“Stupid is as stupid does.”~~ Forrest Gump’s Mom

[TexasTiger 13,026]

46 minutes ago, Mikey said:

"War Is Hell"~~~General William T. Sherman.

Mistakes will always happen, but how are hostages supposed to escape without being quickly killed if hands up and a white flag gets you immediately shot?

[Gowebb11 9,381]

10 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Mistakes will always happen, but how are hostages supposed to escape without being quickly killed if hands up and a white flag gets you immediately shot?

Horrific outcome for sure. As one of this boards many military veterans and/or law enforcement personnel, I’m not about to judge without having been on the scene and without knowing the full context of the events. The article does reference the terrorists using deceptive tactics.

[I_M4_AU 8,003]

14 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Mistakes will always happen, but how are hostages supposed to escape without being quickly killed if hands up and a white flag gets you immediately shot?

I believe the IDF is investigating the incident so maybe we should wait before we show disdain.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

8 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

Horrific outcome for sure. As one of this boards many military veterans and/or law enforcement personnel, I’m not about to judge without having been on the scene and without knowing the full context of the events. The article does reference the terrorists using deceptive tactics.

Of course they use deceptive tactics. Extreme caution is warranted. But they know they are dealing with a hostage situation so— extreme caution is warranted. And what if the opposition is genuinely surrendering? Is there no mechanism for that possibility?

[Gowebb11 9,381]

15 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Of course they use deceptive tactics. Extreme caution is warranted. But they know they are dealing with a hostage situation so— extreme caution is warranted. And what if the opposition is genuinely surrendering? Is there no mechanism for that possibility?

They’re investigating the soldiers and they will be held accountable if wrongdoing is determined.  As I stated, I wasn’t there. But they weren’t reacting to an article in the safety of their home. They’re locked in loaded in a combat zone where split second decisions are the difference in life and death. So I’m reserving judgement. To your question: of course there is a mechanism for the that possibility of genuinely surrendering. Thus the investigation. Will you acknowledge that there is a possibility that there is a context to their situation that may have made that very uncertain?

Edited December 17, 2023 by Gowebb11

[TexasTiger 13,026]

42 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

They’re investigating the soldiers and they will be held accountable if wrongdoing is determined.  As I stated, I wasn’t there. But they weren’t reacting to an article in the safety of their home. They’re locked in loaded in a combat zone where split second decisions are the difference in life and death. So I’m reserving judgement. To your question: of course there is a mechanism for the that possibility of genuinely surrendering. Thus the investigation. Will you acknowledge that there is a possibility that there is a context to their situation that may have made that very uncertain?

I’m asking what that context might be. I’ll listen to what they say. The info we have now is from Israel. What they are saying seems similar to what I’m saying:

“What we have told our troops is to be extra vigilant and do one more safety check before dealing with kinetics with any threat that they face on the battlefield,” Conricus said, “but it is a very challenging environment that our troops are in.”

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/16/middleeast/what-we-know-hostages-killed-israel-gaza/index.html

[Gowebb11 9,381]

16 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I’m asking what that context might be. I’ll listen to what they say. The info we have now is from Israel. What they are saying seems similar to what I’m saying:

“What we have told our troops is to be extra vigilant and do one more safety check before dealing with kinetics with any threat that they face on the battlefield,” Conricus said, “but it is a very challenging environment that our troops are in.”

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/16/middleeast/what-we-know-hostages-killed-israel-gaza/index.html

How old and experienced were the soldiers

Were the soldiers taking a post lunch break walk in an assumed safe area when they encountered the victims or were they just leaving a bloody fire fight 

Was the sun in their eyes

Did it happen in a well lit open area or a crowded dark space

Did the victims “pop out” suddenly or did the soldiers have ample time to react to their presence  

Was there a presence of other gunfire or mortar fire in the area  

There are countless scenarios. Same for cops.  My ask is reasonable: don't judge until all of the facts and context are known.  I’m perhaps biased since I have shared the experience of a soldier in harms way.   

 

[TexasTiger 13,026]

2 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

How old and experienced were the soldiers

Were the soldiers taking a post lunch break walk in an assumed safe area when they encountered the victims or were they just leaving a bloody fire fight 

Was the sun in their eyes

Did it happen in a well lit open area or a crowded dark space

Did the victims “pop out” suddenly or did the soldiers have ample time to react to their presence  

Was there a presence of other gunfire or mortar fire in the area  

There are countless scenarios. Same for cops.  My ask is reasonable: don't judge until all of the facts and context are known.  I’m perhaps biased since I have shared the experience of a soldier in harms way.   

 

Here’s what I’ve seen:

The official - who spoke to journalists on the condition of anonymity to speak freely about an ongoing investigation - said the trio emerged shirtless, waving their flag, from a building “tens of meters” away from a group of Israeli troops in the Gaza City neighborhood of Shejaiya.

At least one soldier felt threatened and opened fire, killing two of the men immediately. The third was wounded and ran back inside the building. The Israeli unit overheard a cry for help in Hebrew, at which time the brigade commander ordered his troops to stop shooting. However, there was another burst of gunfire. The third hostage died later.

[I_M4_AU 8,003]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

The official - who spoke to journalists on the condition of anonymity to speak freely about an ongoing investigation

This is the sentence that should tell you to wait until the investigation is over.  

[TexasTiger 13,026]

5 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

This is the sentence that should tell you to wait until the investigation is over.  

Right. Mikey dismissed it as “war is hell” and you embraced that view immediately. Oh, and you saying “wait until the investigation is over” is particularly rich, given your gross hypocrisy on that principle.

[I_M4_AU 8,003]

2 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Right. Mikey dismissed it as “war is hell” and you embraced that view immediately. Oh, and you saying “wait until the investigation is over” is particularly rich, given your gross hypocrisy on that principle.

You mean like you not believing the IRS whistleblowers in the Hunter case?  I, in that case, am waiting until the facts are in as opposed to your view that there is no *evidence* of wrong doing by Biden.  I guess you are misrepresenting my stance again.

[Mikey 16,738]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

Right. Mikey dismissed it as “war is hell” and you embraced that view immediately.

It looks like I need to repeat: "War Is Hell"~~~General William T. Sherman.

This enemy is not going by any accepted rules of warfare. They hide in children's hospitals, appear to surrender when in fact they are suicide bombers and implement many other methods of using civilians as shields. The normal rules can't be used against those who are fighting against the terrorists. Due to their methods, stuff will happen. War is hell.

[I_M4_AU 8,003]

5 hours ago, Mikey said:

Due to their methods, stuff will happen. War is hell.

Their methods are war crimes, but only one side is supposed to play by the rules.  They are terrorists and hide behind the innocent.

Edited December 17, 2023 by I_M4_AU

[TexasTiger 13,026]

52 minutes ago, Mikey said:

It looks like I need to repeat: "War Is Hell"~~~General William T. Sherman.

This enemy is not going by any accepted rules of warfare. They hide in children's hospitals, appear to surrender when in fact they are suicide bombers and implement many other methods of using civilians as shields. The normal rules can't be used against those who are fighting against the terrorists. Due to their methods, stuff will happen. War is hell.

This is a terrorist/hostage situation in a civilian environment. A force needs to be prepared and disciplined for that. Like you say, this is not a standard “war” situation. Guess I need to repeat, “Stupid is as stupid does.” 
 

BTW, I hope the Israeli government didn’t tell the families, “well you know what Mikey & Sherman says— war is hell.” 

[TexasTiger 13,026]

40 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Their methods are war crimes, but only on side is supposed to play by the rules.  They are terrorists and hide behind the innocent.

They are. They do. And Israel has a mission to save hostages and needs to be prepared for such situations.

[Mikey 16,738]

2 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

They are. They do. And Israel has a mission to save hostages and needs to be prepared for such situations.

Nice thoughts while we sit at our desktops. Out there where the hot lead is flying it's not so clear.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

1 hour ago, Mikey said:

Nice thoughts while we sit at our desktops. Out there where the hot lead is flying it's not so clear.

Understood. Read the title. Simply said their reputation as crack forces is overstated.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

 

 

5 hours ago, Gowebb11 said:

How old and experienced were the soldiers

That would support the title of this thread, wouldn’t it?

[Gowebb11 9,381]

47 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

 

 

That would support the title of this thread, wouldn’t it?

No

[TexasTiger 13,026]

11 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

No

If you’re saying it may have happened because they’re young and inexperienced, doesn’t that suggest the expertise of the force is overhyped?

[auburnatl1 5,056]

Urban warfare is as dangerous and mistake prone as it gets. This needs (needed) to wind down quickly. 

[Gowebb11 9,381]

26 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

If you’re saying it may have happened because they’re young and inexperienced, doesn’t that suggest the expertise of the force is overhyped?

Nope.