Campus pastor murders professor who critiqued the pro-life movement

[TitanTiger 20,708]

arnaldo, you need to brush up on theology as well as reading contextually:

1. Israel was already at war with Philistia because of their frequent invasions of Israel, so David was merely being sent into battle and given an unusual requirement from Saul.

2. This is something Saul is doing, not a command from God.

3. The reasoning for it besides Saul being borderline mad has nothing to do with killing "those not like you."

4. This is a descriptive passage telling us what happened, not a prescriptive passage laying out some on going principle, unless of course you've discovered a wormhole and are presently living in ancient Israel and being attacked by the Philistines.

Even in the Old Testament where you might find passages where God commanded Israel to attack another people, it was not for being "different." It was either because those people attacked Israel first (such as the Amalekites, I Sam 15:2, who not only attacked first, but targeted the weak and weary) or because they were under God's judgment for committing "detestable practices" such as human/child sacrifice (Deut 12:31 and here, particularly points 6 and 7).

By contrast, there are multiple passages in the Koran that explicitly command Muslims to kill those who don't submit to Allah with no such qualifications or contextual limitations.

[Tiger Al 0]

arnaldo, you need to brush up on theology as well as reading contextually:

1. Israel was already at war with Philistia because of their frequent invasions of Israel, so David was merely being sent into battle and given an unusual requirement from Saul.

2. This is something Saul is doing, not a command from God.

3. The reasoning for it besides Saul being borderline mad has nothing to do with killing "those not like you."

4. This is a descriptive passage telling us what happened, not a prescriptive passage laying out some on going principle, unless of course you've discovered a wormhole and are presently living in ancient Israel and being attacked by the Philistines.

Even in the Old Testament where you might find passages where God commanded Israel to attack another people, it was not for being "different." It was either because those people attacked Israel first (such as the Amalekites, I Sam 15:2, who not only attacked first, but targeted the weak and weary) or because they were under God's judgment for committing "detestable practices" such as human/child sacrifice (Deut 12:31 and here, particularly points 6 and 7).

By contrast, there are multiple passages in the Koran that explicitlycommand Muslims to kill those who don't submit to Allah with no suchqualifications or contextual limitations.

What I find interesting is that your link would probably take up about 50 single-spaced pages in a word document in explanation of a few verses. Even in defense of arnaldo's verse you were compelled to provide several clarifying points and other Biblical references to show that what seemed to mean one thing really meant another. I can't help but wonder if you've ever devoted as much reading in explanation of any of the "multiple passages" from the Koran from an equally non-biased source. Or, have you simply accepted the passages minus any context, background, history, clarifying points or explanation to mean exactly what someone proposed them to mean?

[TitanTiger 20,708]

arnaldo, you need to brush up on theology as well as reading contextually:

1. Israel was already at war with Philistia because of their frequent invasions of Israel, so David was merely being sent into battle and given an unusual requirement from Saul.

2. This is something Saul is doing, not a command from God.

3. The reasoning for it besides Saul being borderline mad has nothing to do with killing "those not like you."

4. This is a descriptive passage telling us what happened, not a prescriptive passage laying out some on going principle, unless of course you've discovered a wormhole and are presently living in ancient Israel and being attacked by the Philistines.

Even in the Old Testament where you might find passages where God commanded Israel to attack another people, it was not for being "different." It was either because those people attacked Israel first (such as the Amalekites, I Sam 15:2, who not only attacked first, but targeted the weak and weary) or because they were under God's judgment for committing "detestable practices" such as human/child sacrifice (Deut 12:31 and here, particularly points 6 and 7).

By contrast, there are multiple passages in the Koran that explicitlycommand Muslims to kill those who don't submit to Allah with no suchqualifications or contextual limitations.

What I find interesting is that your link would probably take up about 50 single-spaced pages in a word document in explanation of a few verses. Even in defense of arnaldo's verse you were compelled to provide several clarifying points and other Biblical references to show that what seemed to mean one thing really meant another. I can't help but wonder if you've ever devoted as much reading in explanation of any of the "multiple passages" from the Koran from an equally non-biased source. Or, have you simply accepted the passages minus any context, background, history, clarifying points or explanation to mean exactly what someone proposed them to mean?

It wasn't just explaining a few verses. The original question was a very big one and hinted at a much larger issue. The person who answered doesn't give pat responses, he gives detailed analysis of the background and history of the era to give full context of what was going on and how the hearer of the story would have understood it when it was being told the first time.

But even without the detailed analysis, a casual reading of passages from each would strike even the average reader as very different. One is retelling history and the other reads like a verse from Proverbs or a command from one of the Pauline epistles. No one reads the story of Hosea marrying Gomer for instance and immediately thinks of that as a command to go marry prostitutes themselves. But they do read passages such as "flee from sexual immorality" and come away with the idea that they've just read an explicit command. There's just an obvious difference in the type of passage you're dealing with.

It would be one thing if these Koran verses were merely recounting some figure in Islam telling one of his generals to go kill some non-believers back 1300 years ago some time, but they just sit there as straight up commands and to me those are much harder to explain away.

[Tiger Al 0]

arnaldo, you need to brush up on theology as well as reading contextually:

1. Israel was already at war with Philistia because of their frequent invasions of Israel, so David was merely being sent into battle and given an unusual requirement from Saul.

2. This is something Saul is doing, not a command from God.

3. The reasoning for it besides Saul being borderline mad has nothing to do with killing "those not like you."

4. This is a descriptive passage telling us what happened, not a prescriptive passage laying out some on going principle, unless of course you've discovered a wormhole and are presently living in ancient Israel and being attacked by the Philistines.

Even in the Old Testament where you might find passages where God commanded Israel to attack another people, it was not for being "different." It was either because those people attacked Israel first (such as the Amalekites, I Sam 15:2, who not only attacked first, but targeted the weak and weary) or because they were under God's judgment for committing "detestable practices" such as human/child sacrifice (Deut 12:31 and here, particularly points 6 and 7).

By contrast, there are multiple passages in the Koran that explicitlycommand Muslims to kill those who don't submit to Allah with no suchqualifications or contextual limitations.

What I find interesting is that your link would probably take up about 50 single-spaced pages in a word document in explanation of a few verses. Even in defense of arnaldo's verse you were compelled to provide several clarifying points and other Biblical references to show that what seemed to mean one thing really meant another. I can't help but wonder if you've ever devoted as much reading in explanation of any of the "multiple passages" from the Koran from an equally non-biased source. Or, have you simply accepted the passages minus any context, background, history, clarifying points or explanation to mean exactly what someone proposed them to mean?

It wasn't just explaining a few verses. The original question was a very big one and hinted at a much larger issue. The person who answered doesn't give pat responses, he gives detailed analysis of the background and history of the era to give full context of what was going on and how the hearer of the story would have understood it when it was being told the first time.

But even without the detailed analysis, a casual reading of passages from each would strike even the average reader as very different. One is retelling history and the other reads like a verse from Proverbs or a command from one of the Pauline epistles. No one reads the story of Hosea marrying Gomer for instance and immediately thinks of that as a command to go marry prostitutes themselves. But they do read passages such as "flee from sexual immorality" and come away with the idea that they've just read an explicit command. There's just an obvious difference in the type of passage you're dealing with.

It would be one thing if these Koran verses were merely recounting some figure in Islam telling one of his generals to go kill some non-believers back 1300 years ago some time, but they just sit there as straight up commands and to me those are much harder to explain away.

Well, that's exactly the point I was making. A detailed analysis, or a lifetime immersion in the religion, is necessary to understand both what is being said and what it means, whether it be the Bible or the Koran. I think you'd agree that many people throughout the history of Christianity have taken Biblical passages and cleverly convinced some people of meanings that others would never arrive at. You spent your entire life reading and studying the Bible. You've sat through years of having the verses explained, put in proper context and cross-referenced with countless other verses to explain the reasons why what appears to be "straight up" isn't exactly so. Yet, you and others don't seem to allow that the same can be said of the Koran.

[TitanTiger 20,708]

Well, I allow for the possibility but in the handful of instances I've heard explanations, most haven't been very satisfying. Not to mention, it sure seems that a higher percentage of the Muslim world subscribes to the hyper-literalist view of the key passages than you can ever find amongst the so-called Christian or Jewish ranks. I'll admit I do need to be exposed to more scholarship on the Koran but it seems to me where the mainstream of even the hardcore conservative "religious right" in Christianity would roundly condemn such violent acts, parallel voices in the Muslim world are a voice crying out in the wilderness by comparison.

Again, I go back to just taking the average reader through the Bible passages. Most fairly intelligent, average people reading the story of Hosea or the passage arnaldo referenced where David is telling Saul to go kill a bunch of Philistines would take away that they'd just read an account of something that happened, but not that it was command from Scripture for them to carry out also. However, even if they disagreed, they would pretty quickly recognize that verses that say "Do not steal" or "flee from sexual immorality" are directly telling them to do something. It's inescapable if you have even a basic understanding of genre of literature. That doesn't require a lifetime immersion in religion or a seminary degree.

Likewise, if there's a historical story in the Koran where someone carried out murder or some kind of violence, I can understand that being explained. But you've got a much harder hill to climb when explicit verses that are not part of a narrative tell you to kill unbelievers.

[BamaGrad03 0]

arnaldo, you need to brush up on theology as well as reading contextually:

1. Israel was already at war with Philistia because of their frequent invasions of Israel, so David was merely being sent into battle and given an unusual requirement from Saul.

2. This is something Saul is doing, not a command from God.

3. The reasoning for it besides Saul being borderline mad has nothing to do with killing "those not like you."

4. This is a descriptive passage telling us what happened, not a prescriptive passage laying out some on going principle, unless of course you've discovered a wormhole and are presently living in ancient Israel and being attacked by the Philistines.

Even in the Old Testament where you might find passages where God commanded Israel to attack another people, it was not for being "different." It was either because those people attacked Israel first (such as the Amalekites, I Sam 15:2, who not only attacked first, but targeted the weak and weary) or because they were under God's judgment for committing "detestable practices" such as human/child sacrifice (Deut 12:31 and here, particularly points 6 and 7).

By contrast, there are multiple passages in the Koran that explicitlycommand Muslims to kill those who don't submit to Allah with no suchqualifications or contextual limitations.

What I find interesting is that your link would probably take up about 50 single-spaced pages in a word document in explanation of a few verses. Even in defense of arnaldo's verse you were compelled to provide several clarifying points and other Biblical references to show that what seemed to mean one thing really meant another. I can't help but wonder if you've ever devoted as much reading in explanation of any of the "multiple passages" from the Koran from an equally non-biased source. Or, have you simply accepted the passages minus any context, background, history, clarifying points or explanation to mean exactly what someone proposed them to mean?

It wasn't just explaining a few verses. The original question was a very big one and hinted at a much larger issue. The person who answered doesn't give pat responses, he gives detailed analysis of the background and history of the era to give full context of what was going on and how the hearer of the story would have understood it when it was being told the first time.

But even without the detailed analysis, a casual reading of passages from each would strike even the average reader as very different. One is retelling history and the other reads like a verse from Proverbs or a command from one of the Pauline epistles. No one reads the story of Hosea marrying Gomer for instance and immediately thinks of that as a command to go marry prostitutes themselves. But they do read passages such as "flee from sexual immorality" and come away with the idea that they've just read an explicit command. There's just an obvious difference in the type of passage you're dealing with.

It would be one thing if these Koran verses were merely recounting some figure in Islam telling one of his generals to go kill some non-believers back 1300 years ago some time, but they just sit there as straight up commands and to me those are much harder to explain away.

Well, that's exactly the point I was making. A detailed analysis, or a lifetime immersion in the religion, is necessary to understand both what is being said and what it means, whether it be the Bible or the Koran. I think you'd agree that many people throughout the history of Christianity have taken Biblical passages and cleverly convinced some people of meanings that others would never arrive at. You spent your entire life reading and studying the Bible. You've sat through years of having the verses explained, put in proper context and cross-referenced with countless other verses to explain the reasons why what appears to be "straight up" isn't exactly so. Yet, you and others don't seem to allow that the same can be said of the Koran.

And people who've spent a life immersed in studying Christianity come to the conclusion that the Bible doesn't endorse a murderous slaying rampage.

People who've spent a life immersed in studying the Koran are shopping for deals on suicide bomb vests.

Big difference.

[CCTAU 3,369]

He who attempts to defend the muslim religion as it is being practiced today in the middle east, is no more than what David brought Saul in arnie's passage above.

[OldNewby 27]

How 'ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen satanic verses?

[Tiger Al 0]

Well, I allow for the possibility but in the handful of instances I've heard explanations, most haven't been very satisfying. Not to mention, it sure seems that a higher percentage of the Muslim world subscribes to the hyper-literalist view of the key passages than you can ever find amongst the so-called Christian or Jewish ranks. I'll admit I do need to be exposed to more scholarship on the Koran but it seems to me where the mainstream of even the hardcore conservative "religious right" in Christianity would roundly condemn such violent acts, parallel voices in the Muslim world are a voice crying out in the wilderness by comparison.

Again, I go back to just taking the average reader through the Bible passages. Most fairly intelligent, average people reading the story of Hosea or the passage arnaldo referenced where David is telling Saul to go kill a bunch of Philistines would take away that they'd just read an account of something that happened, but not that it was command from Scripture for them to carry out also. However, even if they disagreed, they would pretty quickly recognize that verses that say "Do not steal" or "flee from sexual immorality" are directly telling them to do something. It's inescapable if you have even a basic understanding of genre of literature. That doesn't require a lifetime immersion in religion or a seminary degree.

Likewise, if there's a historical story in the Koran where someone carried out murder or some kind of violence, I can understand that being explained. But you've got a much harder hill to climb when explicit verses that are not part of a narrative tell you to kill unbelievers.

What explicit verses are you talking about?