Try and have a peaceful discussion,,,

[WarTim 3,456]

It's not so much willfully ignorant. Libs are just not very smart. Otherwise, they would not be libs...:-)

Great. You found a random yahoo to prop up your bigotry.

Ben, it would seem you've not even tried to research this topic; if you had, you would have found a centuries old analysis of this very topic. The first to write on this topic were not "recent yahoo's" from England...but the leading imam's of the earliest muslim writings...abrogation (or the naskh in Arabic), the differences in the Meccan vs Medinan suras,the umma needing live in perpetual war until all are muslims, Qur'an 9; the Verse of the Sword, etc. Also, read the writings of early westerners who lived for extensive times in muslim lands. You will find their views and the views of the imam's in perfect alignment. How about choosing not to remain willfully ignorant on the topic and do some scholarship.

Are you suggesting this is cause for us to go and slaughter them? I acknowledge the practical side of your "might makes right" view of the world. However, I detest the hypocrisy of it. Surely, you will acknowledge that almost every culture, every religion is guilty of barbarism at some point. "Do some scholarship"? Maybe you should think about how prejudice and bias undermine intellect.

Wow, I can't even begin to figure out where to point out the wholes in this childlike argument...but, you set a low bar; so let's see.

• First, I made no recommendation as to a course of action...so I can't begin to fathom your leap to my alleged "might makes right" view of the world comes from.
  
  • The discussion was how bogus the religion of peace assertion is...and how it is supported by muslim theology and centuries of muslim writings
    
  • and yes, western writers with knowledge of the topic...
    
  • thanks for conceding the relevant point
    

  [*]Second, you detest the hypocrisy of my argument...I detest lazy, childlike arguments...you seem to want to hang on to the old "since you once sinned; you have no right to call out the sins of others" fallacy; or take action to distance your self from the sins of others. That approach would have civilization still running around naked gathering berries and buggering each other in caves. Learning from mistakes; and not repeating them, is what experience is all about...so you basically assert we can't learn from experience and call others to turn away from bad behavior...in this case mass murder, genocide, misogyny, etc. I assume you have taken that approach with your kids?

• Third, other cultures have been guilty of barbarism...they turned away from it and condemned it. .. loudly, in doctrine, in writing, in practice, in teaching, adding punishments for those who continued the bad behavior....I could go on...the facts are 1300 years later, the Muslims are not doing that...they are doubling down on barbarism...because it is at the core of what their founder did; and what their teachers teach.
  

Happy to have another discussion on "what to do" when people are trying to kill you and are hell bent on eliminating your way of life.

Great post. 100% spot on. Your facts stand.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

I second your spot WT.

[japantiger 4,051]

It's not so much willfully ignorant. Libs are just not very smart. Otherwise, they would not be libs...:-)

Great. You found a random yahoo to prop up your bigotry.

Ben, it would seem you've not even tried to research this topic; if you had, you would have found a centuries old analysis of this very topic. The first to write on this topic were not "recent yahoo's" from England...but the leading imam's of the earliest muslim writings...abrogation (or the naskh in Arabic), the differences in the Meccan vs Medinan suras,the umma needing live in perpetual war until all are muslims, Qur'an 9; the Verse of the Sword, etc. Also, read the writings of early westerners who lived for extensive times in muslim lands. You will find their views and the views of the imam's in perfect alignment. How about choosing not to remain willfully ignorant on the topic and do some scholarship.

Are you suggesting this is cause for us to go and slaughter them? I acknowledge the practical side of your "might makes right" view of the world. However, I detest the hypocrisy of it. Surely, you will acknowledge that almost every culture, every religion is guilty of barbarism at some point. "Do some scholarship"? Maybe you should think about how prejudice and bias undermine intellect.

Wow, I can't even begin to figure out where to point out the wholes in this childlike argument...but, you set a low bar; so let's see.

• First, I made no recommendation as to a course of action...so I can't begin to fathom your leap to my alleged "might makes right" view of the world comes from.
  
  • The discussion was how bogus the religion of peace assertion is...and how it is supported by muslim theology and centuries of muslim writings
    
  • and yes, western writers with knowledge of the topic...
    
  • thanks for conceding the relevant point
    

Then you can understand why it was phrased as a question. What are you promoting?

• Second, you detest the hypocrisy of my argument...I detest lazy, childlike arguments...you seem to want to hang on to the old "since you once sinned; you have no right to call out the sins of others" fallacy; or take action to distance your self from the sins of others. That approach would have civilization still running around naked gathering berries and buggering each other in caves. Learning from mistakes; and not repeating them, is what experience is all about...so you basically assert we can't learn from experience and call others to turn away from bad behavior...in this case mass murder, genocide, misogyny, etc. I assume you have taken that approach with your kids?
  

That is just ludicrous rambling. Talk about "lazy" and "childlike". If we are of superior intellect and/or morality, if we have evolved from animals in caves, wouldn't a more thoughtful, strategic approach be possible? Shouldn't there be something other than simply escalating violence? The idea that we "aren't cavemen but, let's act like cavemen", is void of any logic.

• Third, other cultures have been guilty of barbarism...they turned away from it and condemned it. .. loudly, in doctrine, in writing, in practice, in teaching, adding punishments for those who continued the bad behavior....I could go on...the facts are 1300 years later, the Muslims are not doing that...they are doubling down on barbarism...because it is at the core of what their founder did; and what their teachers teach.
  

This culture does not deserve to mature as others have? Is it simply not possible? Is their time up? You are aware of the violent acts and rhetoric of other religions, aren't you? You are aware of the hypocrisy in your statement, aren't you?

Happy to have another discussion on "what to do" when people are trying to kill you and are hell bent on eliminating your way of life.

Your experiences with Muslims are different from mine. None have ever tried to kill me. I have gone to school with them, socialized with them, been friends with them, been educated by them, dined with them, worked with them. Not one has ever tried to harm me. Perhaps your statement is another based in fear, prejudice, and bias?

Your "might makes right philosophy" serves no one but those who are content with perpetual war but, you tell me, is Lindsey Graham correct, are "they" going to kill us all? Is it time to act like hysterical children? Or, is this situation so bad that you are you preparing to enlist?

You keep talking about might makes right. I mode no assertion as to action. This post was a critique on the religion of peace fallacy. If you want to be taken seriously, seriously engage on the actual discussion.

As to the long term efficacy of the Muslim faith, it's not my responsibility to reform it; How many more centuries do you think they should get before they turn away from the teachings of their founder? While not all muslims are radicalized to the point of wearing bombs and conducting beheadings, the math says as few as 70m and as many as 300m are....and the other 1.2B don't seem to be doing anything about the 300m.

The facts are most Germans weren't genocidal maniacs; but they let the Nazi's get away with genocide and killing 40m people...most Soviets only wanted enough potatoes and vodka to get by; but stood in parades and supported decades of genocide and oppression by Stalin, etc, and killed 25m...most Chinese just wanted their rice bowls filled; but they still supported Mao and his killing 60m....So neither will I try to reform the muslim faith, nor will I be a victim to it; or blind to the lessons of history. It is hardly relevant that most muslims are not radicals; if they let the radicals dominate their religion and don't stop them from conducting genocide in their name...just like the Germans did, just like the Russians did, just like the Chinese did, just like the Cambodians did, ad-infinitum.

I also think you don't actually know what the definition of hypocrisy is. The fact that other religions did something bad in their past, does not make me or any current practitioner of one of those religions a hypocrite for pointing out the obvious or advocating cessation of genocide by the current muslim population.

[quietfan 233]

I'm not going to take time to read or individually comment on the entire last 3-4 pages of debate (A brief scan was sufficient for me to draw the conclusion that there was relatively nothing new in the posts--pretty much the same old arguments and insults from both sides.)

Instead, just want to express my personal philosophy:

I personally try to form my opinions of people based on their individual words and deeds, not what particular religion, book, or interpretation of scripture they subscribe to. I've known self-proclaimed "Christians" who were, by my standards, very good and very bad. I have met/known personally Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and atheists that were extremely good, kind, peaceful, tolerant, civilly responsible, and caring individuals. I don't think ISIS, al Qaeda, or the Taliban represent mainstream Islam any more than Westboro Baptists or the Aryan "Christian Identity Movement" represent Christianity. I abhor stereotypes of any kind and base my opinions of a person on that individual's words and deeds, not the individual's ethnicity or religious faith or what others of similar ethnicity or faith have done/said. Just my personal beliefs/opinion.

There are those who would look at much of the Old Testament, the history of the Crusades/wars of the Protestant Reformation/witch and heretic burnings/the Inquisition/Northern Ireland, and Jesus's own words that "I came not to bring peace but a sword/division" (Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:51) and argue that Christianity is not a religion of peace either. Although I disagree, I can see why some would choose to argue that.

[AUUSN 823]

I'm not going to take time to read or individually comment on the entire last 3-4 pages of debate (A brief scan was sufficient for me to draw the conclusion that there was relatively nothing new in the posts--pretty much the old same arguments and insults from both sides.)

Instead, just want to express my personal philosophy:

I personally try to form my opinions of people based on their individual words and deeds, not what particular religion, book, or interpretation of scripture they subscribe to. I've known self-proclaimed "Christians" who were, by my standards, very good and very bad. I have met/known personally Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and atheists that were extremely good, kind, peaceful, tolerant, civilly responsible, and caring individuals. I don't think ISIS, al Qaeda, or the Taliban represent mainstream Islam any more than Westboro Baptists or the Aryan "Christian Identity Movement" represent Christianity. I abhor stereotypes of any kind and base my opinions of a person on that individual's words and deeds, not the individual's ethnicity or religious faith or what others of similar ethnicity or faith have done/said. Just my personal beliefs/opinion.

There are those who would look at much of the Old Testament, the history of the Crusades/wars of the Protestant Reformation/witch and heretic burnings/the Inquisition/Northern Ireland, and Jesus's own words that "I came not to bring peace but a sword/division" (Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:51) and argue that Christianity is not a religion of peace either. Although I disagree, I can see why some would choose to argue that.

Fantastic post. Reading through these posts, I was thinking whether I should drop my retirement papers because I'm not going to serve a bunch of Islamophobes but you come in with the cold water of reality. Thanks again.

[homersapien 11,393]

I'm not going to take time to read or individually comment on the entire last 3-4 pages of debate (A brief scan was sufficient for me to draw the conclusion that there was relatively nothing new in the posts--pretty much the old same arguments and insults from both sides.)

Instead, just want to express my personal philosophy:

I personally try to form my opinions of people based on their individual words and deeds, not what particular religion, book, or interpretation of scripture they subscribe to. I've known self-proclaimed "Christians" who were, by my standards, very good and very bad. I have met/known personally Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and atheists that were extremely good, kind, peaceful, tolerant, civilly responsible, and caring individuals. I don't think ISIS, al Qaeda, or the Taliban represent mainstream Islam any more than Westboro Baptists or the Aryan "Christian Identity Movement" represent Christianity. I abhor stereotypes of any kind and base my opinions of a person on that individual's words and deeds, not the individual's ethnicity or religious faith or what others of similar ethnicity or faith have done/said. Just my personal beliefs/opinion.

There are those who would look at much of the Old Testament, the history of the Crusades/wars of the Protestant Reformation/witch and heretic burnings/the Inquisition/Northern Ireland, and Jesus's own words that "I came not to bring peace but a sword/division" (Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:51) and argue that Christianity is not a religion of peace either. Although I disagree, I can see why some would choose to argue that.

http://originalblessing.ning.com/profiles/blogs/christian-atrocities-committed

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

http://curezone.org/forums/am.asp?i=1841107

http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-List-of-Christian-Atrocities

etc., etc.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

It's not so much willfully ignorant. Libs are just not very smart. Otherwise, they would not be libs...:-)

Great. You found a random yahoo to prop up your bigotry.

Ben, it would seem you've not even tried to research this topic; if you had, you would have found a centuries old analysis of this very topic. The first to write on this topic were not "recent yahoo's" from England...but the leading imam's of the earliest muslim writings...abrogation (or the naskh in Arabic), the differences in the Meccan vs Medinan suras,the umma needing live in perpetual war until all are muslims, Qur'an 9; the Verse of the Sword, etc. Also, read the writings of early westerners who lived for extensive times in muslim lands. You will find their views and the views of the imam's in perfect alignment. How about choosing not to remain willfully ignorant on the topic and do some scholarship.

Are you suggesting this is cause for us to go and slaughter them? I acknowledge the practical side of your "might makes right" view of the world. However, I detest the hypocrisy of it. Surely, you will acknowledge that almost every culture, every religion is guilty of barbarism at some point. "Do some scholarship"? Maybe you should think about how prejudice and bias undermine intellect.

Wow, I can't even begin to figure out where to point out the wholes in this childlike argument...but, you set a low bar; so let's see.

• First, I made no recommendation as to a course of action...so I can't begin to fathom your leap to my alleged "might makes right" view of the world comes from.
  
  • The discussion was how bogus the religion of peace assertion is...and how it is supported by muslim theology and centuries of muslim writings
    
  • and yes, western writers with knowledge of the topic...
    
  • thanks for conceding the relevant point
    

Then you can understand why it was phrased as a question. What are you promoting?

• Second, you detest the hypocrisy of my argument...I detest lazy, childlike arguments...you seem to want to hang on to the old "since you once sinned; you have no right to call out the sins of others" fallacy; or take action to distance your self from the sins of others. That approach would have civilization still running around naked gathering berries and buggering each other in caves. Learning from mistakes; and not repeating them, is what experience is all about...so you basically assert we can't learn from experience and call others to turn away from bad behavior...in this case mass murder, genocide, misogyny, etc. I assume you have taken that approach with your kids?
  

That is just ludicrous rambling. Talk about "lazy" and "childlike". If we are of superior intellect and/or morality, if we have evolved from animals in caves, wouldn't a more thoughtful, strategic approach be possible? Shouldn't there be something other than simply escalating violence? The idea that we "aren't cavemen but, let's act like cavemen", is void of any logic.

• Third, other cultures have been guilty of barbarism...they turned away from it and condemned it. .. loudly, in doctrine, in writing, in practice, in teaching, adding punishments for those who continued the bad behavior....I could go on...the facts are 1300 years later, the Muslims are not doing that...they are doubling down on barbarism...because it is at the core of what their founder did; and what their teachers teach.
  

This culture does not deserve to mature as others have? Is it simply not possible? Is their time up? You are aware of the violent acts and rhetoric of other religions, aren't you? You are aware of the hypocrisy in your statement, aren't you?

Happy to have another discussion on "what to do" when people are trying to kill you and are hell bent on eliminating your way of life.

Your experiences with Muslims are different from mine. None have ever tried to kill me. I have gone to school with them, socialized with them, been friends with them, been educated by them, dined with them, worked with them. Not one has ever tried to harm me. Perhaps your statement is another based in fear, prejudice, and bias?

Your "might makes right philosophy" serves no one but those who are content with perpetual war but, you tell me, is Lindsey Graham correct, are "they" going to kill us all? Is it time to act like hysterical children? Or, is this situation so bad that you are you preparing to enlist?

You keep talking about might makes right. I mode no assertion as to action. This post was a critique on the religion of peace fallacy. If you want to be taken seriously, seriously engage on the actual discussion.

As to the long term efficacy of the Muslim faith, it's not my responsibility to reform it; How many more centuries do you think they should get before they turn away from the teachings of their founder? While not all muslims are radicalized to the point of wearing bombs and conducting beheadings, the math says as few as 70m and as many as 300m are....and the other 1.2B don't seem to be doing anything about the 300m.

The facts are most Germans weren't genocidal maniacs; but they let the Nazi's get away with genocide and killing 40m people...most Soviets only wanted enough potatoes and vodka to get by; but stood in parades and supported decades of genocide and oppression by Stalin, etc, and killed 25m...most Chinese just wanted their rice bowls filled; but they still supported Mao and his killing 60m....So neither will I try to reform the muslim faith, nor will I be a victim to it; or blind to the lessons of history. It is hardly relevant that most muslims are not radicals; if they let the radicals dominate their religion and don't stop them from conducting genocide in their name...just like the Germans did, just like the Russians did, just like the Chinese did, just like the Cambodians did, ad-infinitum.

I also think you don't actually know what the definition of hypocrisy is. The fact that other religions did something bad in their past, does not make me or any current practitioner of one of those religions a hypocrite for pointing out the obvious or advocating cessation of genocide by the current muslim population.

Read that over and over again while thinking about hypocrisy and how it may apply to you.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Some posters I respect a whole lot are pretty naïve when it comes to Islam as a whole. Sure they are not all bad. Obviously there have been a lot of bad "Christian" groups too. But I have studied Islam and Muslims for over 30 years and I stand by my opinions.

[japantiger 4,051]

I would add not just naive when it comes to Muslims as a whole...I would say naive as to evil as a whole.

[japantiger 4,051]

It's not so much willfully ignorant. Libs are just not very smart. Otherwise, they would not be libs...:-)

Great. You found a random yahoo to prop up your bigotry.

Ben, it would seem you've not even tried to research this topic; if you had, you would have found a centuries old analysis of this very topic. The first to write on this topic were not "recent yahoo's" from England...but the leading imam's of the earliest muslim writings...abrogation (or the naskh in Arabic), the differences in the Meccan vs Medinan suras,the umma needing live in perpetual war until all are muslims, Qur'an 9; the Verse of the Sword, etc. Also, read the writings of early westerners who lived for extensive times in muslim lands. You will find their views and the views of the imam's in perfect alignment. How about choosing not to remain willfully ignorant on the topic and do some scholarship.

Are you suggesting this is cause for us to go and slaughter them? I acknowledge the practical side of your "might makes right" view of the world. However, I detest the hypocrisy of it. Surely, you will acknowledge that almost every culture, every religion is guilty of barbarism at some point. "Do some scholarship"? Maybe you should think about how prejudice and bias undermine intellect.

Wow, I can't even begin to figure out where to point out the wholes in this childlike argument...but, you set a low bar; so let's see.

• First, I made no recommendation as to a course of action...so I can't begin to fathom your leap to my alleged "might makes right" view of the world comes from.
  
  • The discussion was how bogus the religion of peace assertion is...and how it is supported by muslim theology and centuries of muslim writings
    
  • and yes, western writers with knowledge of the topic...
    
  • thanks for conceding the relevant point
    

Then you can understand why it was phrased as a question. What are you promoting?

• Second, you detest the hypocrisy of my argument...I detest lazy, childlike arguments...you seem to want to hang on to the old "since you once sinned; you have no right to call out the sins of others" fallacy; or take action to distance your self from the sins of others. That approach would have civilization still running around naked gathering berries and buggering each other in caves. Learning from mistakes; and not repeating them, is what experience is all about...so you basically assert we can't learn from experience and call others to turn away from bad behavior...in this case mass murder, genocide, misogyny, etc. I assume you have taken that approach with your kids?
  

That is just ludicrous rambling. Talk about "lazy" and "childlike". If we are of superior intellect and/or morality, if we have evolved from animals in caves, wouldn't a more thoughtful, strategic approach be possible? Shouldn't there be something other than simply escalating violence? The idea that we "aren't cavemen but, let's act like cavemen", is void of any logic.

• Third, other cultures have been guilty of barbarism...they turned away from it and condemned it. .. loudly, in doctrine, in writing, in practice, in teaching, adding punishments for those who continued the bad behavior....I could go on...the facts are 1300 years later, the Muslims are not doing that...they are doubling down on barbarism...because it is at the core of what their founder did; and what their teachers teach.
  

This culture does not deserve to mature as others have? Is it simply not possible? Is their time up? You are aware of the violent acts and rhetoric of other religions, aren't you? You are aware of the hypocrisy in your statement, aren't you?

Happy to have another discussion on "what to do" when people are trying to kill you and are hell bent on eliminating your way of life.

Your experiences with Muslims are different from mine. None have ever tried to kill me. I have gone to school with them, socialized with them, been friends with them, been educated by them, dined with them, worked with them. Not one has ever tried to harm me. Perhaps your statement is another based in fear, prejudice, and bias?

Your "might makes right philosophy" serves no one but those who are content with perpetual war but, you tell me, is Lindsey Graham correct, are "they" going to kill us all? Is it time to act like hysterical children? Or, is this situation so bad that you are you preparing to enlist?

You keep talking about might makes right. I mode no assertion as to action. This post was a critique on the religion of peace fallacy. If you want to be taken seriously, seriously engage on the actual discussion.

As to the long term efficacy of the Muslim faith, it's not my responsibility to reform it; How many more centuries do you think they should get before they turn away from the teachings of their founder? While not all muslims are radicalized to the point of wearing bombs and conducting beheadings, the math says as few as 70m and as many as 300m are....and the other 1.2B don't seem to be doing anything about the 300m.

The facts are most Germans weren't genocidal maniacs; but they let the Nazi's get away with genocide and killing 40m people...most Soviets only wanted enough potatoes and vodka to get by; but stood in parades and supported decades of genocide and oppression by Stalin, etc, and killed 25m...most Chinese just wanted their rice bowls filled; but they still supported Mao and his killing 60m....So neither will I try to reform the muslim faith, nor will I be a victim to it; or blind to the lessons of history. It is hardly relevant that most muslims are not radicals; if they let the radicals dominate their religion and don't stop them from conducting genocide in their name...just like the Germans did, just like the Russians did, just like the Chinese did, just like the Cambodians did, ad-infinitum.

I also think you don't actually know what the definition of hypocrisy is. The fact that other religions did something bad in their past, does not make me or any current practitioner of one of those religions a hypocrite for pointing out the obvious or advocating cessation of genocide by the current muslim population.

Read that over and over again while thinking about hypocrisy and how it may apply to you.

You've got to do better than that. Care to actually construct a meaningful argument?

[DKW 86 7,431]

Kudos!!!

BTW, the real Peace Lovers and Peacemakers are usually military leaders that know full well the humbling nature of watching a brother in arms die or sending another brother to die. Veterans know full well the cost of war. They wrote the check to cover those costs the day they signed up.

[homersapien 11,393]

I would add not just naive when it comes to Muslims as a whole...I would say naive as to evil as a whole.

Should we allow evil to exist in our society if we know who they are?

[homersapien 11,393]

Some posters I respect a whole lot are pretty naïve when it comes to Islam as a whole. Sure they are not all bad. Obviously there have been a lot of bad "Christian" groups too. But I have studied Islam and Muslims for over 30 years and I stand by my opinions.

"Islam as a whole"? So if "they are not all bad", how do you group them into "Islam as a whole"?

[WarTim 3,456]

Kudos!!!

BTW, the real Peace Lovers and Peacemakers are usually military leaders that know full well the humbling nature of watching a brother in arms die or sending another brother to die. Veterans know full well the cost of war. They wrote the check to cover those costs the day they signed up.

Very well said.