PayPal bails on North Carolina

[homersapien 11,374]

Serious question, because there has been a lot of talk about how do you know who's trans and who's pretending to be, from supporters of the bill.

If you are a trans woman, do you have to dress like a woman to make that claim? In other words, couldn't a man, who looks and dresses like a man, now go into a woman's restroom with protection? Like many have said, trans people have been using our restrooms for years. Except, I haven't noticed because the trans men probably have just looked like men. I'm not concerned about trans men using my restroom. My understanding was that a man, not even attempting to pretend to be a woman, can now use the women's facilities any time, so long as he says he is a woman. I could, for instance go into the women's room if I pleased, looking like I normally do, so long as I can say "I feel like a woman." Is that accurate? Serious question.

Well, obviously at some point a transgender person hasn't yet tried to assume their "innate" sexuality, but it's hard to imagine a transexual woman would not have already done so if she is prepared to use the women's restroom.

That's not what I'm talking about. I' make talking about men being able to go into women's restrooms, without having to look like a woman in any way, shape or form. If Billy Bob wants to go hang out with some girls in the locker room, he can do that. He doesn't have to dress up. He can just go in and do it. If approached, he just needs to say "I feel like a woman" and he is protected?

Well, I would say that if he looks like a man that's evidence enough he's not a transgender woman.

Is it though? Honestly, if people make these determinations based upon their feelings, how can you argue that just because they don't look a certain way, that they don't feel a certain way.

Bruce Jenner says that he has felt like a woman for years, yet you would never know by the way he used to appear. Is he wrong?

You can't. That why you use the standard of appearance. Transgenders have been "fooling" us for years. If you don't notice them, there's no problem.

While you can make a theoretical case a transgender might want to use the bathroom of what they feel is there real sex before assuming the physical identity of that sex, it's highly improbable. For the most part, transgenders aren't seeking confrontation, just the opposite.

Did Bruce Jenner try to use women's restrooms before he changed his appearance? I doubt it.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

Serious question, because there has been a lot of talk about how do you know who's trans and who's pretending to be, from supporters of the bill.

If you are a trans woman, do you have to dress like a woman to make that claim? In other words, couldn't a man, who looks and dresses like a man, now go into a woman's restroom with protection? Like many have said, trans people have been using our restrooms for years. Except, I haven't noticed because the trans men probably have just looked like men. I'm not concerned about trans men using my restroom. My understanding was that a man, not even attempting to pretend to be a woman, can now use the women's facilities any time, so long as he says he is a woman. I could, for instance go into the women's room if I pleased, looking like I normally do, so long as I can say "I feel like a woman." Is that accurate? Serious question.

Well, obviously at some point a transgender person hasn't yet tried to assume their "innate" sexuality, but it's hard to imagine a transexual woman would not have already done so if she is prepared to use the women's restroom.

That's not what I'm talking about. I' make talking about men being able to go into women's restrooms, without having to look like a woman in any way, shape or form. If Billy Bob wants to go hang out with some girls in the locker room, he can do that. He doesn't have to dress up. He can just go in and do it. If approached, he just needs to say "I feel like a woman" and he is protected?

Well, I would say that if he looks like a man that's evidence enough he's not a transgender woman.

Is it though? Honestly, if people make these determinations based upon their feelings, how can you argue that just because they don't look a certain way, that they don't feel a certain way.

Bruce Jenner says that he has felt like a woman for years, yet you would never know by the way he used to appear. Is he wrong?

You can't. That why you use the standard of appearance. Transgenders have been "fooling" us for years. If you don't notice them, there's no problem.

While you can make a theoretical case a transgender might want to use the bathroom of what they feel is there real sex before assuming the physical identity of that sex, it's highly improbable. For the most part, transgenders aren't seeking confrontation, just the opposite.

Did Bruce Jenner try to use women's restrooms before he changed his appearance? I doubt it.

So if I see some dude in a wig, makeup and skirt going into the women's locker rooms at the YMCA where my girls are, I'm not going to be accused of bigotry for telling him to stop or calling staff to come get him out of there? Not that I care if someone wants to call me that - I'll call out cross-dressing dude in a heartbeat when it comes to my daughters and their right to privacy and safety. Just trying to prepare for all eventualities.

And just for the record, it isn't usually that hard to pick them out. You can see something is off 99% of the time. They might not have facial hair, but I'd bet there's an extremely small percentage of men trying to be women that have done enough surgery and hormone therapy to not be noticeable.

[Barnacle 9,064]

Serious question, because there has been a lot of talk about how do you know who's trans and who's pretending to be, from supporters of the bill.

If you are a trans woman, do you have to dress like a woman to make that claim? In other words, couldn't a man, who looks and dresses like a man, now go into a woman's restroom with protection? Like many have said, trans people have been using our restrooms for years. Except, I haven't noticed because the trans men probably have just looked like men. I'm not concerned about trans men using my restroom. My understanding was that a man, not even attempting to pretend to be a woman, can now use the women's facilities any time, so long as he says he is a woman. I could, for instance go into the women's room if I pleased, looking like I normally do, so long as I can say "I feel like a woman." Is that accurate? Serious question.

Well, obviously at some point a transgender person hasn't yet tried to assume their "innate" sexuality, but it's hard to imagine a transexual woman would not have already done so if she is prepared to use the women's restroom.

That's not what I'm talking about. I' make talking about men being able to go into women's restrooms, without having to look like a woman in any way, shape or form. If Billy Bob wants to go hang out with some girls in the locker room, he can do that. He doesn't have to dress up. He can just go in and do it. If approached, he just needs to say "I feel like a woman" and he is protected?

Well, I would say that if he looks like a man that's evidence enough he's not a transgender woman.

Is it though? Honestly, if people make these determinations based upon their feelings, how can you argue that just because they don't look a certain way, that they don't feel a certain way.

Bruce Jenner says that he has felt like a woman for years, yet you would never know by the way he used to appear. Is he wrong?

You can't. That why you use the standard of appearance. Transgenders have been "fooling" us for years. If you don't notice them, there's no problem.

While you can make a theoretical case a transgender might want to use the bathroom of what they feel is there real sex before assuming the physical identity of that sex, it's highly improbable. For the most part, transgenders aren't seeking confrontation, just the opposite.

Did Bruce Jenner try to use women's restrooms before he changed his appearance? I doubt it.

I agree with you. Yet, if we are able to make these determinations based upon feelings alone, and we justify those feelings, then doesn't it open the door for people to take advantage of the law?

If you can legally prevent opportunists from taking advantage of the law, based on their appearances, and they cannot make a claim that they are trans (when they actually aren't), then there isn't a problem.

Again, I'm not talking about Bruce Jenner walking into a women's restroom two years ago. I'm talking about a straight, predatory male walking in, without having to change his appearance, and then claiming that despite the way he dresses, he feels like a woman and therefore, should not be discriminated against.

[homersapien 11,374]

Serious question, because there has been a lot of talk about how do you know who's trans and who's pretending to be, from supporters of the bill.

If you are a trans woman, do you have to dress like a woman to make that claim? In other words, couldn't a man, who looks and dresses like a man, now go into a woman's restroom with protection? Like many have said, trans people have been using our restrooms for years. Except, I haven't noticed because the trans men probably have just looked like men. I'm not concerned about trans men using my restroom. My understanding was that a man, not even attempting to pretend to be a woman, can now use the women's facilities any time, so long as he says he is a woman. I could, for instance go into the women's room if I pleased, looking like I normally do, so long as I can say "I feel like a woman." Is that accurate? Serious question.

Well, obviously at some point a transgender person hasn't yet tried to assume their "innate" sexuality, but it's hard to imagine a transexual woman would not have already done so if she is prepared to use the women's restroom.

That's not what I'm talking about. I' make talking about men being able to go into women's restrooms, without having to look like a woman in any way, shape or form. If Billy Bob wants to go hang out with some girls in the locker room, he can do that. He doesn't have to dress up. He can just go in and do it. If approached, he just needs to say "I feel like a woman" and he is protected?

Well, I would say that if he looks like a man that's evidence enough he's not a transgender woman.

Is it though? Honestly, if people make these determinations based upon their feelings, how can you argue that just because they don't look a certain way, that they don't feel a certain way.

Bruce Jenner says that he has felt like a woman for years, yet you would never know by the way he used to appear. Is he wrong?

You can't. That why you use the standard of appearance. Transgenders have been "fooling" us for years. If you don't notice them, there's no problem.

While you can make a theoretical case a transgender might want to use the bathroom of what they feel is there real sex before assuming the physical identity of that sex, it's highly improbable. For the most part, transgenders aren't seeking confrontation, just the opposite.

Did Bruce Jenner try to use women's restrooms before he changed his appearance? I doubt it.

I agree with you. Yet, if we are able to make these determinations based upon feelings alone, and we justify those feelings, then doesn't it open the door for people to take advantage of the law?

If you can legally prevent opportunists from taking advantage of the law, based on their appearances, and they cannot make a claim that they are trans (when they actually aren't), then there isn't a problem.

Again, I'm not talking about Bruce Jenner walking into a women's restroom two years ago. I'm talking about a straight, predatory male walking in, without having to change his appearance, and then claiming that despite the way he dresses, he feels like a woman and therefore, should not be discriminated against.

I find it a little fantastic to imagine a "straight predatory male" openly trying to take advantage of transexual tolerance in such a way. It doesn't make any sense for a sexual predator to cause a fuss in preparation to attacking someone.

Again, transexuals have been using the bathroom of their choice for years. It hasn't been a problem. No one even notices. Now all of a sudden, we are equating the practice with sexual threats? It makes no sense.

This is not about fear of sexual crimes. This is about fear and ignorance of transexuality.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

I find it a little fantastic to imagine a "straight predatory male" openly trying to take advantage of transexual tolerance in such a way. It doesn't make any sense for a sexual predator to cause a fuss in preparation to attacking someone.

Roughly one out of five girls are sexually abused in some way during their childhood. And that's without giving motivated predators lawful access to the areas where they shower and change clothes. Do you honestly see this ratio staying static by giving them legal cover to be there? Child sexual predators intentionally seek out places where their preferred targets are known to gather in groups.

Again, transexuals have been using the bathroom of their choice for years. It hasn't been a problem. No one even notices. Now all of a sudden, we are equating the practice with sexual threats? It makes no sense.

People have been doing all sorts of things without being caught or noticed for years. Is this really a measuring standard by which to decide if something should be made explicitly lawful?

This is not about fear of sexual crimes. This is about fear and ignorance of transexuality.

Speak for yourself. You aren't qualified to speak for others.

[Barnacle 9,064]

Serious question, because there has been a lot of talk about how do you know who's trans and who's pretending to be, from supporters of the bill.

If you are a trans woman, do you have to dress like a woman to make that claim? In other words, couldn't a man, who looks and dresses like a man, now go into a woman's restroom with protection? Like many have said, trans people have been using our restrooms for years. Except, I haven't noticed because the trans men probably have just looked like men. I'm not concerned about trans men using my restroom. My understanding was that a man, not even attempting to pretend to be a woman, can now use the women's facilities any time, so long as he says he is a woman. I could, for instance go into the women's room if I pleased, looking like I normally do, so long as I can say "I feel like a woman." Is that accurate? Serious question.

Well, obviously at some point a transgender person hasn't yet tried to assume their "innate" sexuality, but it's hard to imagine a transexual woman would not have already done so if she is prepared to use the women's restroom.

That's not what I'm talking about. I' make talking about men being able to go into women's restrooms, without having to look like a woman in any way, shape or form. If Billy Bob wants to go hang out with some girls in the locker room, he can do that. He doesn't have to dress up. He can just go in and do it. If approached, he just needs to say "I feel like a woman" and he is protected?

Well, I would say that if he looks like a man that's evidence enough he's not a transgender woman.

Is it though? Honestly, if people make these determinations based upon their feelings, how can you argue that just because they don't look a certain way, that they don't feel a certain way.

Bruce Jenner says that he has felt like a woman for years, yet you would never know by the way he used to appear. Is he wrong?

You can't. That why you use the standard of appearance. Transgenders have been "fooling" us for years. If you don't notice them, there's no problem.

While you can make a theoretical case a transgender might want to use the bathroom of what they feel is there real sex before assuming the physical identity of that sex, it's highly improbable. For the most part, transgenders aren't seeking confrontation, just the opposite.

Did Bruce Jenner try to use women's restrooms before he changed his appearance? I doubt it.

I agree with you. Yet, if we are able to make these determinations based upon feelings alone, and we justify those feelings, then doesn't it open the door for people to take advantage of the law?

If you can legally prevent opportunists from taking advantage of the law, based on their appearances, and they cannot make a claim that they are trans (when they actually aren't), then there isn't a problem.

Again, I'm not talking about Bruce Jenner walking into a women's restroom two years ago. I'm talking about a straight, predatory male walking in, without having to change his appearance, and then claiming that despite the way he dresses, he feels like a woman and therefore, should not be discriminated against.

I find it a little fantastic to imagine a "straight predatory male" openly trying to take advantage of transexual tolerance in such a way. It doesn't make any sense for a sexual predator to cause a fuss in preparation to attacking someone.

Again, transexuals have been using the bathroom of their choice for years. It hasn't been a problem. No one even notices. Now all of a sudden, we are equating the practice with sexual threats? It makes no sense.

This is not about fear of sexual crimes. This is about fear and ignorance of transexuality.

Again, I have no problems with transsexuals using their bathrooms of choice. I'm just trying to see the entire picture, and ask the questions that concern me about opening doors for unintended consequences.

There is a correlation between predatory behavior and opportunity. I'm not talking about trans people. I'm not equating them to this behavior in any way shape or form. I'm trying to look at the opportunity being created for other people, who would take advantage of tolerance. Predatory behavior is about opportunity. It's not fantastic at all to think that if a predator can walk into whatever public restroom he chooses with impunity, then he might take advantage of that opportunity. That's what predators do. They take advantage of opportunities.

Is that a fear? Yes. Is it irrational? No. Is it based on ignorance or intolerance of trans people? No. My mind isn't made up on this yet. I can promise you that my thought process has absolutely nothing to do with how I feel about trans people peeing next to me though.

What amazes me is that when these questions are even raised by people like me, people like you tell me that I'm actually not concerned about what I'm asking questions about, and that I'm really just ignorant. If I'm asking these questions, it's because I'm actually concerned. But go on, tell me what I really think.

[Barnacle 9,064]

And by the way, trans people have been using bathrooms of their gender for years this is true. No problems. Also true. The reason I'm asking these questions now, is that there is a push to make bathrooms essentially genderless, and make them so by law. I just don't see the wisdom in allowing any man to walk in to any women's restroom for any reason.

If we are simply saying that trans people can use any restroom they want then you hear no complaints from me. They aren't the people I'm afraid of.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

Just so we're clear on modern thought processes:

Man claims to "feel" like he's a woman on the inside, he is to be believed - no questions asked.

Person claims that he/she has problems with allowing unquestioned transgender access to opposite sex locker rooms and restrooms because of privacy and safety concerns, they are lying and using it as cover for bigotry, fear and ignorance.

[Barnacle 9,064]

Just so we're clear on modern thought processes:

Man claims to "feel" like he's a woman on the inside, he is to be believed - no questions asked.

Person claims that he/she has problems with allowing unquestioned transgender access to opposite sex locker rooms and restrooms because of privacy and safety concerns, they are lying and using it as cover for bigotry, fear and ignorance.

That's what I've gathered, bigot. And it's not about looking like a woman. It's about feeling like one. As if anyone could ever question that without also being labeled as a bigot themselves.

Man walks into woman's restroom. Women say they feel uncomfortable and report. Yet, they aren't actually concerned about their own safety or privacy, because he feels like a woman and they are really just ignorant. Makes sense.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

Just so we're clear on modern thought processes:

Man claims to "feel" like he's a woman on the inside, he is to be believed - no questions asked.

Person claims that he/she has problems with allowing unquestioned transgender access to opposite sex locker rooms and restrooms because of privacy and safety concerns, they are lying and using it as cover for bigotry, fear and ignorance.

That's what I've gathered, bigot. And it's not about looking like a woman. It's about feeling like one. As if anyone could ever question that without also being labeled as a bigot themselves.

Man walks into woman's restroom. Women say they feel uncomfortable and report. Yet, they aren't actually concerned about their own safety or privacy, because he feels like a woman and they are really just ignorant. Makes sense.

And it's already happened. A Planet Fitness location in Michigan allowed this "woman" to use the women's locker rooms:

When an actual woman trying to use the women's locker room complained that a man was in there, she was informed that it wasn't a man but a transsexual and that their policy was to allow them to use whatever locker room of the gender they "sincerely feel" they belong to. The woman ended up having her membership revoked when she wouldn't stop warning women that this man was being permitted access to their locker room.

Maybe he really believes he's a woman, maybe he doesn't. But we really have no means (nor is anyone even attempting to come up with any) of verifying this. Sincere feelings are all that are required. So now 99.95% of actual women must either get over it or not use the locker rooms so that self-proclaimed women can avoid being made to feel uncomfortable by being required to use unisex facilities or facilities that correspond to their bodies.

If I worked out at Planet Fitness and my daughters were in the locker room changing and I saw someone looking like that strolling into the women's facilities, there's going to be a big problem. And if you think it's about bigotry, you've lost your effing mind.

[Barnacle 9,064]

At least he "looks" like a woman. Imagine if he came in wearing men's clothing. Does that change things? Are his feelings as a woman now invalidated because he isn't wearing traditional women's clothing? Or, because he is deemed woman in women's clothes, he is still a woman in men's clothes, because we are basing this upon sincere feelings.

My point is that a plain dressed male, in male clothing could now have access to women's restrooms and locker rooms based upon his feelings alone and no other criteria. If women complain, are they still intolerant bigots?

[TitanTiger 20,482]

At least he "looks" like a woman.

You have a much better imagination than me. I could spot that that was a dude from a mile away.

Imagine if he came in wearing men's clothing. Does that change things? Are his feelings as a woman now invalidated because he isn't wearing traditional women's clothing? Or, because he is deemed woman in women's clothes, he is still a woman in men's clothes, because we are basing this upon sincere feelings.

What if he identifies as a woman, and as a lesbian, and prefers the more 'butchy' look and role (and therefore dresses more masculine or androgynous)? Everyone still cool with him changing in front of your 12 year old daughter or her showering/undressing with him around?

[alexava 6,973]

TT, I see women sometimes who look more like a man than that man does. How do we handle it when a woman is accused of being a perv in the restroom? Say the cops are called and it turns ugly.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

TT, I see women sometimes who look more like a man than that man does. How do we handle it when a woman is accused of being a perv in the restroom? Say the cops are called and it turns ugly.

How do we handle any situation where someone is accused but didn't do what they're accused of? Just stop ever reporting suspicious behavior because we could possibly be wrong?

I'll guarantee you, 99 out of 100 times if someone looking like that walks into the women's locker rooms and you report it, you won't be mistaken on it being a male body. I'm not going to feel even a little bad about looking out for my daughters.

[homersapien 11,374]

Serious question, because there has been a lot of talk about how do you know who's trans and who's pretending to be, from supporters of the bill.

If you are a trans woman, do you have to dress like a woman to make that claim? In other words, couldn't a man, who looks and dresses like a man, now go into a woman's restroom with protection? Like many have said, trans people have been using our restrooms for years. Except, I haven't noticed because the trans men probably have just looked like men. I'm not concerned about trans men using my restroom. My understanding was that a man, not even attempting to pretend to be a woman, can now use the women's facilities any time, so long as he says he is a woman. I could, for instance go into the women's room if I pleased, looking like I normally do, so long as I can say "I feel like a woman." Is that accurate? Serious question.

Well, obviously at some point a transgender person hasn't yet tried to assume their "innate" sexuality, but it's hard to imagine a transexual woman would not have already done so if she is prepared to use the women's restroom.

That's not what I'm talking about. I' make talking about men being able to go into women's restrooms, without having to look like a woman in any way, shape or form. If Billy Bob wants to go hang out with some girls in the locker room, he can do that. He doesn't have to dress up. He can just go in and do it. If approached, he just needs to say "I feel like a woman" and he is protected?

Well, I would say that if he looks like a man that's evidence enough he's not a transgender woman.

Is it though? Honestly, if people make these determinations based upon their feelings, how can you argue that just because they don't look a certain way, that they don't feel a certain way.

Bruce Jenner says that he has felt like a woman for years, yet you would never know by the way he used to appear. Is he wrong?

You can't. That why you use the standard of appearance. Transgenders have been "fooling" us for years. If you don't notice them, there's no problem.

While you can make a theoretical case a transgender might want to use the bathroom of what they feel is there real sex before assuming the physical identity of that sex, it's highly improbable. For the most part, transgenders aren't seeking confrontation, just the opposite.

Did Bruce Jenner try to use women's restrooms before he changed his appearance? I doubt it.

I agree with you. Yet, if we are able to make these determinations based upon feelings alone, and we justify those feelings, then doesn't it open the door for people to take advantage of the law?

If you can legally prevent opportunists from taking advantage of the law, based on their appearances, and they cannot make a claim that they are trans (when they actually aren't), then there isn't a problem.

Again, I'm not talking about Bruce Jenner walking into a women's restroom two years ago. I'm talking about a straight, predatory male walking in, without having to change his appearance, and then claiming that despite the way he dresses, he feels like a woman and therefore, should not be discriminated against.

So you are saying he expects a pass after a sexual advance on someone? We already have laws against sexual assault.

Why would a sexual predator pick a woman's bathroom for a sexual assault in the first place? I fail to see how letting transgenders use the bathroom of their choice is going to result in more sexual attacks.

[homersapien 11,374]

TT, I see women sometimes who look more like a man than that man does. How do we handle it when a woman is accused of being a perv in the restroom? Say the cops are called and it turns ugly.

How do we handle any situation where someone is accused but didn't do what they're accused of? Just stop ever reporting suspicious behavior because we could possibly be wrong?

I'll guarantee you, 99 out of 100 times if someone looking like that walks into the women's locker rooms and you report it, you won't be mistaken on it being a male body. I'm not going to feel even a little bad about looking out for my daughters.

I'll guarantee you, 99 out of 100 times a transexual uses the bathroom they appear to belong it, you will never know it.

[homersapien 11,374]

And by the way, trans people have been using bathrooms of their gender for years this is true. No problems. Also true. The reason I'm asking these questions now, is that there is a push to make bathrooms essentially genderless, and make them so by law. I just don't see the wisdom in allowing any man to walk in to any women's restroom for any reason.

If we are simply saying that trans people can use any restroom they want then you hear no complaints from me. They aren't the people I'm afraid of.

There's not a push to make them genderless. There's a push to regulate where a transexual can use the bathroom.

What happen to individual property rights. If I own a building with a public bathroom, why should the government tell me how to manage it? Show me the problem these laws are supposed to be solving.

[aujeff11 6,243]

TT, I see women sometimes who look more like a man than that man does. How do we handle it when a woman is accused of being a perv in the restroom? Say the cops are called and it turns ugly.

How do we handle any situation where someone is accused but didn't do what they're accused of? Just stop ever reporting suspicious behavior because we could possibly be wrong?

I'll guarantee you, 99 out of 100 times if someone looking like that walks into the women's locker rooms and you report it, you won't be mistaken on it being a male body. I'm not going to feel even a little bad about looking out for my daughters.

I'll guarantee you, 99 out of 100 times a transexual uses the bathroom they appear to belong it, you will never know it.

Im not worried about the transsexual. I'm worried about the non transsexual that still tries to use the opposite gender bathroom.

[Barnacle 9,064]

Serious question, because there has been a lot of talk about how do you know who's trans and who's pretending to be, from supporters of the bill.

If you are a trans woman, do you have to dress like a woman to make that claim? In other words, couldn't a man, who looks and dresses like a man, now go into a woman's restroom with protection? Like many have said, trans people have been using our restrooms for years. Except, I haven't noticed because the trans men probably have just looked like men. I'm not concerned about trans men using my restroom. My understanding was that a man, not even attempting to pretend to be a woman, can now use the women's facilities any time, so long as he says he is a woman. I could, for instance go into the women's room if I pleased, looking like I normally do, so long as I can say "I feel like a woman." Is that accurate? Serious question.

Well, obviously at some point a transgender person hasn't yet tried to assume their "innate" sexuality, but it's hard to imagine a transexual woman would not have already done so if she is prepared to use the women's restroom.

That's not what I'm talking about. I' make talking about men being able to go into women's restrooms, without having to look like a woman in any way, shape or form. If Billy Bob wants to go hang out with some girls in the locker room, he can do that. He doesn't have to dress up. He can just go in and do it. If approached, he just needs to say "I feel like a woman" and he is protected?

Well, I would say that if he looks like a man that's evidence enough he's not a transgender woman.

Is it though? Honestly, if people make these determinations based upon their feelings, how can you argue that just because they don't look a certain way, that they don't feel a certain way.

Bruce Jenner says that he has felt like a woman for years, yet you would never know by the way he used to appear. Is he wrong?

You can't. That why you use the standard of appearance. Transgenders have been "fooling" us for years. If you don't notice them, there's no problem.

While you can make a theoretical case a transgender might want to use the bathroom of what they feel is there real sex before assuming the physical identity of that sex, it's highly improbable. For the most part, transgenders aren't seeking confrontation, just the opposite.

Did Bruce Jenner try to use women's restrooms before he changed his appearance? I doubt it.

I agree with you. Yet, if we are able to make these determinations based upon feelings alone, and we justify those feelings, then doesn't it open the door for people to take advantage of the law?

If you can legally prevent opportunists from taking advantage of the law, based on their appearances, and they cannot make a claim that they are trans (when they actually aren't), then there isn't a problem.

Again, I'm not talking about Bruce Jenner walking into a women's restroom two years ago. I'm talking about a straight, predatory male walking in, without having to change his appearance, and then claiming that despite the way he dresses, he feels like a woman and therefore, should not be discriminated against.

So you are saying he expects a pass after a sexual advance on someone? We already have laws against sexual assault.

Why would a sexual predator pick a woman's bathroom for a sexual assault in the first place? I fail to see how letting transgenders use the bathroom of their choice is going to result in more sexual attacks.

To the first question, of course not.

To your second question. I'm not saying letting transgendered people use their restroom of choice will result in more sexual attacks. You've noted, and I agree that trans people have been using their restrooms of choice for a long time and there hasn't been an increased risk. The simple notion of trans people using the restroom of choice is not a risk. I've never argued differently.

However, when men (not trans women) are allowed to use women's restrooms legally, in my opinion it makes the women's restroom a less safe place. Now you have men who would not have normally ventured into a woman's restroom before because of legal and social barriers, now being able to and being protected to do so, so long as they say that they identify as a woman. An assault doesn't have to take place for women to feel uncomfortable with men (not trans women) in their changing room, or bathroom, or locker room. Women can report if men aren't where they should be, but all that a man needs to claim is that he identifies as a woman, whether it's true or not, and he will be allowed to continue using those areas, and making women and probably trans women feel uncomfortable.

I could be wrong, maybe that won't happen. I guess we will see. But, in the past men haven't had the opportunity to do this with impunity and they would if all they have to say is that they feel a certain way.

[Barnacle 9,064]

And by the way, trans people have been using bathrooms of their gender for years this is true. No problems. Also true. The reason I'm asking these questions now, is that there is a push to make bathrooms essentially genderless, and make them so by law. I just don't see the wisdom in allowing any man to walk in to any women's restroom for any reason.

If we are simply saying that trans people can use any restroom they want then you hear no complaints from me. They aren't the people I'm afraid of.

There's not a push to make them genderless. There's a push to regulate where a transexual can use the bathroom.

What happen to individual property rights. If I own a building with a public bathroom, why should the government tell me how to manage it? Show me the problem these laws are supposed to be solving.

Well, in Charlotte you have two laws. The city ordinance and the bill. Both control who can go in what bathrooms.

I never said I was in favor of this bill by the way.

I'm not against allowing trans people to use their bathrooms of choice, and I'm not for regulating where they can and can't. I just want to know how you protect against people abusing the opportunity if all you have to claim is an identity or feeling.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

Why would a sexual predator pick a woman's bathroom for a sexual assault in the first place? I fail to see how letting transgenders use the bathroom of their choice is going to result in more sexual attacks.

You cannot be serious. Good Lord, don't be so committed to open-mindedness that your brain falls out.

Why do predators place hidden cameras in women's dressing rooms, restrooms and locker rooms? Why don't peeping toms just hang out across the street and watch women walk to the mailbox? Because restrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms and such are where women are semi-naked to naked. The peeping tom isn't watching his target watch TV or cook dinner, he's looking in her bedroom while she's getting dressed.

You are granting them legal cover. That you fail to see this astounds me. Of course we have laws against assault. But anyone knows that you don't do things to make it easier for them to gain access to targets.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

TT, I see women sometimes who look more like a man than that man does. How do we handle it when a woman is accused of being a perv in the restroom? Say the cops are called and it turns ugly.

How do we handle any situation where someone is accused but didn't do what they're accused of? Just stop ever reporting suspicious behavior because we could possibly be wrong?

I'll guarantee you, 99 out of 100 times if someone looking like that walks into the women's locker rooms and you report it, you won't be mistaken on it being a male body. I'm not going to feel even a little bad about looking out for my daughters.

I'll guarantee you, 99 out of 100 times a transexual uses the bathroom they appear to belong it, you will never know it.

Im not worried about the transsexual. I'm worried about the non transsexual that still tries to use the opposite gender bathroom.

Apparently this is a non-issue because we have centuries of data on how this plays out and sexual predators wouldn't see any opportunity in dressing like women to gain access to women's private spaces.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

I can't wait for the first time a woman with a black belt in karate beats the living s*** out of some cross-dresser with a penis coming in for a free show who claims to be transgender. I will be the chairman of her GoFundMe campaign for legal defense.

[Barnacle 9,064]

To clarify. I'm not for this bill. I am against the ordinance that it came in response to.

[homersapien 11,374]

TT, I see women sometimes who look more like a man than that man does. How do we handle it when a woman is accused of being a perv in the restroom? Say the cops are called and it turns ugly.

How do we handle any situation where someone is accused but didn't do what they're accused of? Just stop ever reporting suspicious behavior because we could possibly be wrong?

I'll guarantee you, 99 out of 100 times if someone looking like that walks into the women's locker rooms and you report it, you won't be mistaken on it being a male body. I'm not going to feel even a little bad about looking out for my daughters.

I'll guarantee you, 99 out of 100 times a transexual uses the bathroom they appear to belong it, you will never know it.

Im not worried about the transsexual. I'm worried about the non transsexual that still tries to use the opposite gender bathroom.

Apparently this is a non-issue because we have centuries of data on how this plays out and sexual predators wouldn't see any opportunity in dressing like women to gain access to women's private spaces.

"Centuries of data"? I'd like to see some of that data.