JF3 in Netflix Documentary- airing 7/29

[johnnyAU 3,634]

7 hours ago, cole256 said:

But at the same time the kid you keep being down on came in and pushed the guys here. I agree with you on the style of play stuff actually. But you pretty much get agitated at people that do the exact same thing you do except it's a different qb. At least that's my opinion. 

There's a difference in being down on a guy and just not being excited about him because he's fast. He hasn't played many snaps in college at all, even compared to SW and JJ. Both Cam and Nick transferred in after starting an entire season at QB and won a lot of games. This thread is titled "JF3 in Netflix Documentary- airing 7/29". Shouldn't JFIII be the subject of most of the discussions? 

I certainly don't mind critique of SW and JJ. The offense indeed sputtered last season, more so than any other offense Malzahn has put out there. QB play was a major factor in that performance.

I just find it odd that some people think the only way Gus can be successful is with a DT QB, and that he runs a predominantly zone read offense. Neither of which is true. 

 

 

 

[johnnyAU 3,634]

2 minutes ago, DAG said:

You keep repeating this. It is not the ONLY way but it has been shown time & time again that Gus offense flourishes with a DT-QB, hence the reason people are hoping for a miracle with JF3.

No, it isn't

[DAG 33,997]

2 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

No, it isn't

This doesn't even make any sense. No what isn't?

[johnnyAU 3,634]

Just now, DAG said:

This doesn't even make any sense. No what isn't?

Sorry, missed the "not" in front of the bold ONLY.  My error.

[AUEngineer2016 407]

IMO any offense (not just Malzahn's) is more dynamic with a DT QB as opposed to a true pocket passer. It adds another dimension to a QB that a defense has to worry about. The problem with DT QBs is that their passing is generally not on the same level as the equivalent pocket passer. There are exceptions to that rule (in recent years, Cam Newton and Jameis Winston are notable DT QBs who are good passers in their own right), and those exceptions typically are VERY highly sought after. 

FSU runs a more pro-style offense that is focused on moving the ball down the field using a balanced attack. Their offense was more dynamic with a DT QB. (Example: Jameis Winston)

TCU/Texas Tech run more air-raid style spread offenses that is focused on moving the ball down the field through the air. Their offense is more dynamic with a DT QB. (Example: Patrick Mahomes)

Kansas State runs a power-run based offense from the shotgun. Their offense was more dynamic with a DT QB. (Example: Jake Waters)

There are countless other examples, but in College Football nowadays, offenses with QBs who also pose a running threat force the defense to account for another factor, which gives an advantage to the offense. 

[austudnt23 1,432]

Everyone needs to remember both JF3 and SW play for Auburn.  Both guys want to win. Nobody should be trashing either of them. Critiquing the play of them is fine, but don't bring in stuff about me first attitude when you don't even know the guy. That documentary was basically a reality show and JF3 shouldn't be judged by anything on it. It was a pretty good sign you never once heard him complain of playing time when u know that the shows producers would have loved to have had that kind of drama added in. 

 

[austudnt23 1,432]

1 hour ago, johnnyAU said:

There's a difference in being down on a guy and just not being excited about him because he's fast. He hasn't played many snaps in college at all, even compared to SW and JJ. Both Cam and Nick transferred in after starting an entire season at QB and won a lot of games. This thread is titled "JF3 in Netflix Documentary- airing 7/29". Shouldn't JFIII be the subject of most of the discussions? 

I certainly don't mind critique of SW and JJ. The offense indeed sputtered last season, more so than any other offense Malzahn has put out there. QB play was a major factor in that performance.

I just find it odd that some people think the only way Gus can be successful is with a DT QB, and that he runs a predominantly zone read offense. Neither of which is true. 

 

 

 

NM was criticized big time when he was named the starter in fall camp. Everyone talked about how he threw more int than TD passes in juco, and he was a DB playing qb. 

I don't think anyone is saying Gus offense can't be good without a dt qb just that his offense is dynamic with one. Also I don't think people are saying that he runs a predominantly zone read offense, but I am saying that Gus wants the zone read to be a big part of his offense. Sure he had a qb that had an outstanding season at Tulsa, but this is the SEC and we are not gonna win alot of games throwing the ball more than we run it. Also do we have a Dmac type of rb that Gus had with his best seasons at Arky, Jovon will be very good but I hesitate to put him on the level as Dmac. We definitely don't have a duo like he had with Dmac and Felix Jones. I know you said and I agree that Gus wants and runs a predominantly power run offense which is correct. The whole debate is will our power run offense be better with JF3 or SW?  I know the coaches believe JF3 if he can get his accuracy better throwing the football. I really don't think anyone on the board will argue that fact though. The fact and I know this might rub people the wrong way is that we have not been able to line up and go straight handoff to the rb and ram it down opponents throats like UAT does. Our power run game works best with misdirection and making the defense acct for the qb running the ball. Once again I am not a football coach or expert.  

[thaitopher 807]

13 hours ago, DAG said:

So you admit to being a SW lover? At least you are honest.

I am a fan. Without a passing threat we are dead in the water. Just don't want to see teams stack the box on us during every game. Plus, what are we going to do with those shiny new receivers we just obtained if we can't get them the ball?

[keesler 5,924]

16 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

 their style of play is the least of the worries. 

AMEN!

[DAG 33,997]

3 minutes ago, thaitopher said:

I am a fan. Without a passing threat we are dead in the water. Just don't want to see teams stack the box on us during every game. Plus, what are we going to do with those shiny new receivers we just obtained if we can't get them the ball?

 

True statements

[80Tiger 899]

31 minutes ago, austudnt23 said:

NM was criticized big time when he was named the starter in fall camp. Everyone talked about how he threw more int than TD passes in juco, and he was a DB playing qb. 

I don't think anyone is saying Gus offense can't be good without a dt qb just that his offense is dynamic with one. Also I don't think people are saying that he runs a predominantly zone read offense, but I am saying that Gus wants the zone read to be a big part of his offense. Sure he had a qb that had an outstanding season at Tulsa, but this is the SEC and we are not gonna win alot of games throwing the ball more than we run it. Also do we have a Dmac type of rb that Gus had with his best seasons at Arky, Jovon will be very good but I hesitate to put him on the level as Dmac. We definitely don't have a duo like he had with Dmac and Felix Jones. I know you said and I agree that Gus wants and runs a predominantly power run offense which is correct. The whole debate is will our power run offense be better with JF3 or SW?  I know the coaches believe JF3 if he can get his accuracy better throwing the football. I really don't think anyone on the board will argue that fact though. The fact and I know this might rub people the wrong way is that we have not been able to line up and go straight handoff to the rb and ram it down opponents throats like UAT does. Our power run game works best with misdirection and making the defense acct for the qb running the ball. Once again I am not a football coach or expert.  

But you are correct in what you are saying. And BTW the zone read can be and is power football.

[McLoofus 35,182]

16 minutes ago, austudnt23 said:

NM was criticized big time when he was named the starter in fall camp. Everyone talked about how he threw more int than TD passes in juco, and he was a DB playing qb. 

I don't think anyone is saying Gus offense can't be good without a dt qb just that his offense is dynamic with one. Also I don't think people are saying that he runs a predominantly zone read offense, but I am saying that Gus wants the zone read to be a big part of his offense. Sure he had a qb that had an outstanding season at Tulsa, but this is the SEC and we are not gonna win alot of games throwing the ball more than we run it. Also do we have a Dmac type of rb that Gus had with his best seasons at Arky, Jovon will be very good but I hesitate to put him on the level as Dmac. We definitely don't have a duo like he had with Dmac and Felix Jones. I know you said and I agree that Gus wants and runs a predominantly power run offense which is correct. The whole debate is will our power run offense be better with JF3 or SW?  I know the coaches believe JF3 if he can get his accuracy better throwing the football. I really don't think anyone on the board will argue that fact though. The fact and I know this might rub people the wrong way is that we have not been able to line up and go straight handoff to the rb and ram it down opponents throats like UAT does. Our power run game works best with misdirection and making the defense acct for the qb running the ball. Once again I am not a football coach or expert.  

-A LOT of people say that Gus needs a DT QB. Not sure if any of them are particularly intelligent or not, but it's an extremely common opinion here.

-Again, a LOT of people say that he runs a predominantly zone read offense.

-Who says that having a competent passing game requires throwing it more than running it?

-Funny, Gus and Horton both very specifically and explicitly compared Kerryon Johnson to Darren McFadden. Add in Jovon Robinson, Kam Pettway and Chandler Cox and you might have a fairly similar backfield to that Arkansas team. Not sure about the other pieces of the offense.

All else equal, we all agree that if there are 2 QBs who can pass the ball equally well then the more mobile guy brings more to the table. A mobile QB brings an added element to the defense. That's not really up for debate and I'm not sure why people keep pointing that out as if there's some Auburn fan out there who hadn't considered it. What *is* up for debate is the sum total of what Sean and John bring to the table. It's a useless debate, because nobody knows yet, but that's true of most debates on here. What's odd, though, is the personal level it gets to. Everybody is a "lover" or a "basher". So weird.

Also, if you're going to cite Sean's 40 time as a more important indicator of his mobility than, you know, his game film... yeah, that makes it a little harder to consider it a rational argument. Oops, guess I'm a "lover". 

[austudnt23 1,432]

Just now, 80Tiger said:

But you are correct in what you are saying. And BTW the zone read can be and is power football.

Oh I know I'm correct. The zone read is definitely power football. What I was saying is that CGM offense has not been predominantly zone read throughout his coaching career.  He has used it at Auburn alot and wants to continue to use the zone read as a big part of the offense.  

[austudnt23 1,432]

10 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

-A LOT of people say that Gus needs a DT QB. Not sure if any of them are particularly intelligent or not, but it's an extremely common opinion here.

-Again, a LOT of people say that he runs a predominantly zone read offense.

-Who says that having a competent passing game requires throwing it more than running it?

-Funny, Gus and Horton both very specifically and explicitly compared Kerryon Johnson to Darren McFadden. Add in Jovon Robinson, Kam Pettway and Chandler Cox and you might have a fairly similar backfield to that Arkansas team. Not sure about the other pieces of the offense.

All else equal, we all agree that if there are 2 QBs who can pass the ball equally well then the more mobile guy brings more to the table. A mobile QB brings an added element to the defense. That's not really up for debate and I'm not sure why people keep pointing that out as if there's some Auburn fan out there who hadn't considered it. What *is* up for debate is the sum total of what Sean and John bring to the table. It's a useless debate, because nobody knows yet, but that's true of most debates on here. What's odd, though, is the personal level it gets to. Everybody is a "lover" or a "basher". So weird.

Also, if you're going to cite Sean's 40 time as a more important indicator of his mobility than, you know, his game film... yeah, that makes it a little harder to consider it a rational argument. Oops, guess I'm a "lover". 

JF3 does not have to be equal to SW as a passer to make him a better qb for the offense.

Horton and CGM did compare KJ to Dmac whole recruiting him, but saying he will have a Dmac type of year this year is a big stretch. We do have 2 very good back in JR and KJ and probably the best 2 fb in the SEC. 

I was saying I don't think anyone is saying CGM has run a predominantly zone read offense throughout his coaching career. He has run alot of it while at Auburn. 

I mist be missing something in SW game film that shows me he can be effective running the football in the SEC. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, austudnt23 said:

JF3 does not have to be equal to SW as a passer to make him a better qb for the offense.

Horton and CGM did compare KJ to Dmac whole recruiting him, but saying he will have a Dmac type of year this year is a big stretch. We do have 2 very good back in JR and KJ and probably the best 2 fb in the SEC. 

I was saying I don't think anyone is saying CGM has run a predominantly zone read offense throughout his coaching career. He has run alot of it while at Auburn. 

I mist be missing something in SW game film that shows me he can be effective running the football in the SEC. 

-Exactly. And Sean doesn't have to be an equal runner. And we all know that, which is why it need not be said anymore. 
-Didn't say he would have a DMac type of year, but you asked if we had "a DMac type of RB", and I'm pointing out that our coaches said quite explicitly that we do. By the way, they've said that more than once after Kerryon got on campus.
-There is a large faction of fans who don't make that distinction. They don't really acknowledge that Gus's career began before 2013. There was a similar faction after 2010.
-Really? I have.



 

[austudnt23 1,432]

5 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

-Exactly. And Sean doesn't have to be an equal runner. And we all know that, which is why it need not be said anymore. 
-Didn't say he would have a DMac type of year, but you asked if we had "a DMac type of RB", and I'm pointing out that our coaches said quite explicitly that we do. By the way, they've said that more than once after Kerryon got on campus.
-There is a large faction of fans who don't make that distinction. They don't really acknowledge that Gus's career began before 2013. There was a similar faction after 2010.
-Really? I have.



 

I meant I don't know if we have a rb who can have a Dmac type of season. 

SW wont be anywhere close to the type of runner JF3 will be that's the problem. Which game film? High school?

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, austudnt23 said:

SW wont be anywhere close to the type of runner JF3 will be that's the problem. Which game film? High school?

Nobody is saying that SW will be the runner that JF3 is*. Doesn't mean he can't move. This insistence on everything being black or white, no pun intended, is what makes these conversations so challenging and frustrating. 

Click on the words "Really" and "I have" above and you'll see the film. If you see something underlined, it's probably a link.

*The question is, will JF3 be close to the type of passer that SW is? We're hearing mixed reviews, so we'll just have to wait and see. (He says redundantly for the millionth redundant time.)

[YesWeCam 1]

Why do folks care this much about JF3 as a passer? He was brought here to be a DTQB, and primarily a running QB that has a threat to throw it some.

In 2013 Marshall averaged 18 attempts per game at 59% completion percentage to have LESS than 11 completions per game, which was the fewest in the entire SEC.

I fully believe JF3 can match these numbers.

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, YesWeCam said:

Why do folks care this much about JF3 as a passer? He was brought here to be a DTQB, and primarily a running QB that has a threat to throw it some.

In 2013 Marshall averaged 18 attempts per game at 59% completion percentage to have LESS than 11 completions per game, which was the fewest in the entire SEC.

I fully believe JF3 can match these numbers.

It's so odd to me that people consider a guy who is a good runner and a mediocre passer to be "dual" threat, but a guy who's a good passer and a mediocre runner isn't. 

Anyway, as has been discussed ad nauseam, Marshall had the ideal personnel around him to be able to do that. He had a Rimington winner at center, the 2nd overall pick in the draft at left tackle, lots of experience and talent elsewhere on the OL, a Heisman finalist at RB, basically an uber athletic guard at fullback, CJ Uzomah, Sammie Coates, Corey Grant... that roster was built to do exactly what they did. They set all kinds of records. Also, Nick Marshall didn't turn the ball over, had a Howitzer for an arm and was famously cool under pressure. 

Do you think this offense can do the same just because John Franklin can run? 

 

[YesWeCam 1]

2 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

It's so odd to me that people consider a guy who is a good runner and a mediocre passer to be "dual" threat, but a guy who's a good passer and a mediocre runner isn't. 

Anyway, as has been discussed ad nauseam, Marshall had the ideal personnel around him to be able to do that. He had a Rimington winner at center, the 2nd overall pick in the draft at left tackle, lots of experience and talent elsewhere on the OL, a Heisman finalist at RB, basically an uber athletic guard at fullback, CJ Uzomah, Sammie Coates, Corey Grant... that roster was built to do exactly what they did. They set all kinds of records. Also, Nick Marshall didn't turn the ball over, had a Howitzer for an arm and was famously cool under pressure. 

Do you think this offense can do the same just because John Franklin can run? 

I don't know what this offense can do yet because I haven't seen them, but I don't think the 2013 offense was leaps and bounds better than this offense. From an OL perspective, Kozan and Smith are probably the best OG duo in the SEC if not the nation. I think Cox will be every bit as good as Prosh. And this GROUP of WR should be as good if not better. Coates was our only WR ranked in the top 45 in the SEC from a receiving yards perspective in 2013, outside of him we basically had nothing....and if there is one think Kodi can teach this group of WR its to be a good blocker.

So yes, I do think this offense can be successful with a running QB that throws the ball for 18 attempts and less than 11 completions per game.

2 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

 

 

[bigbird 60,573]

2 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

It's so odd to me that people consider a guy who is a good runner and a mediocre passer to be "dual" threat, but a guy who's a good passer and a mediocre runner isn't. 

 

I feel the same way. As I said previously we don't have dual treat QBS. We have a runner and a passer. That said, passing would be an easier  attribute to increase ones proficiency more than running.

I have always thought it's easier to open up the run through effective passing rather than open up passing through effective running.  Either way, when it's 3rd and 8 and everyone knows it's going to be a pass, we need to be able to consistently complete that pass.

I honestly don't care who takes the snaps. Winning is all that matters. I want the QB that is most effective in leading the team to victory. 

[YesWeCam 1]

3 minutes ago, bigbird said:

I feel the same way. As I said previously we don't have dual treat QBS. We have a runner and a passer. That said, passing would be an easier  attribute to increase ones proficiency more than running.

I have always thought it's easier to open up the run through effective passing rather than open up passing through effective running.  Either way, when it's 3rd and 8 and everyone knows it's going to be a pass, we need to be able to consistently complete that pass.

I honestly don't care who takes the snaps. Winning is all that matters. I want the QB that is most effective in leading the team to victory. 

I fully agree with all of this. I don't care who wins the QB battle and I don't have any preferences as to who wins the QB battle as long as the produce. And yes, in theory I believe like you a good passing game opens up the running game....I just haven't seen that under Gus yet.

[McLoofus 35,182]

5 minutes ago, YesWeCam said:

I don't know what this offense can do yet because I haven't seen them, but I don't think the 2013 offense was leaps and bounds better than this offense. From an OL perspective, Kozan and Smith are probably the best OG duo in the SEC if not the nation. I think Cox will be every bit as good as Prosh. And this GROUP of WR should be as good if not better. Coates was our only WR ranked in the top 45 in the SEC from a receiving yards perspective in 2013, outside of him we basically had nothing....and if there is one think Kodi can teach this group of WR its to be a good blocker.

So yes, I do think this offense can be successful with a running QB that throws the ball for 18 attempts and less than 11 completions per game.

I disagree that that list of attributes trumps the one that I listed, and I don't think that a group of WRs who could've gone anywhere are going to come in and be content to block and split 11 completions a game between them (and Jason Smith, and Marcus Davis, and Darius Slayton, and Stanton Truitt, and Kerryon Johnson, and...). But as you said, we'll have to wait and see. I'd be pleased as punch to have 2013's offense back. 
 

2 minutes ago, bigbird said:

I feel the same way. As I said previously we don't have dual treat QBS. We have a runner and a passer. That said, passing would be an easier  attribute to increase ones proficiency more than running.

I have always thought it's easier to open up the run through effective passing rather than open up passing through effective running.  Either way, when it's 3rd and 8 and everyone knows it's going to be a pass, we need to be able to consistently complete that pass.

I honestly don't care who takes the snaps. Winning is all that matters. I want the QB that is most effective in leading the team to victory. 

I agree with all that. I'll say in response- and I don't think it contradicts anything you said- that with running, you have other players who do that. But there's only going to be one passer on the field. Yogi Berra-level analysis free of charge, y'all... 

[YesWeCam 1]

@Mcloofus You are also comparing the 2013 offense with respect to what the did AFTER the season was over. Nobody knew going into the 2013 season that Greg Robinson was gonna blow up and be the best OT in college football, also Dismukes won the Rimington after the 2014 season IIRC, not 2013, but he was still dang good, and that Tre would rush for an ungodly amount of yards. And nobody had any clue how good Marshall would be and all I heard that summer was "he threw 20 INTs in JUCO".

 

I just don't see that big of difference between the 2013 offense and this one going into this season. This offense could be better than 2013 or they could be down right terrible, "we just don't know" - Philip Marshall

[McLoofus 35,182]

4 minutes ago, YesWeCam said:

@Mcloofus You are also comparing the 2013 offense with respect to what the did AFTER the season was over. Nobody knew going into the 2013 season that Greg Robinson was gonna blow up and be the best OT in college football, also Dismukes won the Rimington after the 2014 season IIRC, not 2013, but he was still dang good, and that Tre would rush for an ungodly amount of yards. And nobody had any clue how good Marshall would be and all I heard that summer was "he threw 20 INTs in JUCO".

Other than Dismukes winning the award after the 2014 season, none of what I listed happened "after" 2013. I mean no disrespect, but that's kind of bizarre to say. It all very much happened during the year. It doesn't matter what anybody knew ahead of time. The fact is, Greg Robinson was a dominant LT *during* 2013- probably the best at Auburn since Marcus McNeil and maybe before- and allowed all kinds of good things to happen. It is a lot to ask Austin Golson- a guy who played center last year- to do the same thing. Jay Prosch got drafted as a fullback and is still FB1 for the Texans, and came to Auburn as an All-American. It's a lot to ask Chandler Cox to be that good as a sophomore. He'll almost definitely be a better pass catcher, *but he needs a guy who can throw the ball* to do that. Dismukes was a 3rd year starter in 2013 and already on the Rimington watch list. Dampeer has never started and didn't play a single down last year. We do not have the legit 4.3 guy at 205 lbs for speed sweeps that we had in Corey Grant. And, again, having more talented, more highly recruited, less experienced pass catchers does not bode well for a run-70%-of-the-time offense. You know who one of our most important WRs in '13 was? Trovon Reed. Do we have a guy that selfless and that tough in this WR corps? Can young, green, quiet Kodi Burns instill that in guys? I sure hope so, but I'm not holding my breath. What about TE? Do we think that Jalen Harris, a ghost in 2015, or Landon Rice, a true FR, are going to be as dependable as CJ Uzomah this year? 

I fully expect this 2016 offense to be much better than 2015's was, but to expect anything like 2013 is to be *wildly* optimistic. I wish I could be, but I'm not.