JF3 in Netflix Documentary- airing 7/29

[austudnt23 1,432]

2 hours ago, mcgufcm said:

My problem with saying, "the offense was incredible in 2013 so let's gear toward that offense again" is that a few pieces are missing. Most importantly, can John run the read as well as Nick? I don't know. He's faster, but is he as deceptive and can he take care of the football? That's one issue.

Second, can this offensive line dominate in the running game? I think that's probably a hard no. There is no mauler on the edges of the OL. Austin Golson is a talented kid, but he's never going to be as physically dominant as Greg Robinson. Dampeer can play, but will he be as good as Dismukes? I doubt it. The OL can absolutely be very, very good, but I'm not convinced that we'll have a dominating run blocking group. If not, the 2013 offense isn't going to reappear no matter how good John is running the ball.

Last thing, we don't know that there is a take-the-top-off-the-defense WR. I don't believe that guy was on the roster in the spring. Kyle Davis could turn into one I guess. If we're banking on a freshman to fill Sammie's role, that's asking an awwwwwful lot. Without that consistent threat though, you can't recreate the 2013 offense. I've already said I don't see the arm strength from John pushing the ball vertically outside the numbers, and that just compounds this issue.

When a team/coaching staff is trying to recreate the good old times, they are often disappointed. Every group is different. Personally, I expect Sean to start. It's just a guess/feel thing. What he did as a passer as a redshirt freshman was underrated, and if you look at him running the read against MSU, you see a guy that can convert first downs. He can be a Bo Wallace/Machine Gun Kelly type of player, and you can win championships with that type of QB. If John can show consistent accuracy in the short/medium range, he'll start. He adds a lot to the run game. If he can't, Sean is going to be the guy, and I believe the offense would be in the upper-half of the SEC with him under center.

Solid post and some good questions that I will attempt to answer.

I'm not so sure Gus and Co are trying to recreate 2013, this is an offense he feels will work in the SEC. In order for the offense to be as effective as we need it to be and dynamic we need the zone read. Well he knows it will work see 2013.  

1. I don't think anybody is going to be able to run the option as good as NM. Dude was a magician. Franklin is a very good runner and very explosive. In the spring he had some troubles with knowing when to give and when to keep the ball. Also he had problems with fumbles on the exchange. He seems to have fixed the fumble problem with the exchange. He has definitely improved on reading the defense and knowing when to hand the ball to the back and when to keep the ball. Like I said NM was a master at this.

2. Yes we have an Oline that is capable of being a dominant run blocking team. We have the two best OG in the SEC imo. Damper is no RD, but he is no slouch either and he is getting better. We should be able to run it down people throat on the inside. The OT position I will give you that we don't have a Greg Robinson type of mauler here. AG should be solid on the left but he is no GR. And Leff is a very good run blocker and that's what he does best. 2013 was definitely better at both OT spots with Robinson and Young.

3. We have a couple of freshman wr that can be put into Sammie role. Davis and NCM can both be the downfield take the top off threat. Remember Sammie was only a sophomore in 2013 and really didn't come on until halfway through the year being the guy that beat people deep.  If we run the ball as well as we can with this group we will have a host of wr that will be able to get open deep. Jason Smith is definitely faster enough for the deep play role also, but Sammie was very good at shedding the dbs to get deep. JF3 definitely has the arm to throw the ball deep and that is what he does best and the most consistent atm. I think you are right about KD being able to take over deep threat role during the season. Who will be able to have that role to start, that is a good question. Maybe Davis will b ready.

4. Our coaches are not really trying to recreate 2013 just running their offensive system. I don't know about SW being a Chad Kelly type player. Also we don't run the same type of offense that Ole Miss runs so we would have to change our philosophy from being a power run team if SW is to be that type of player.

Very good post and good points

[chimesAU 89]

31 minutes ago, SumterAubie said:

No, smartass, I just saw a smoother looking runner who completed a couple of passes. I had no idea who 5 was when I posted that. 

 

?

[johnnyAU 3,630]

1 hour ago, austudnt23 said:

OK your right.. maybe u should be our coach lol. I am saying in our offense it is better. We can coach JF3 up to improve his passing, but we can't coach up speed to SW. You either have the speed or you don't. I'm not saying either SW is super slow because he isn't slow but he does not possess the speed to make him any kind of a threat in our offense

You are still wrong. SW doesn't need killer speed in OUR offense. He won't be running a predominantly zone read package....which is what it is, not an offense.

[austudnt23 1,432]

29 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

You are still wrong. SW doesn't need killer speed in OUR offense. He won't be running a predominantly zone read package....which is what it is, not an offense.

Fact: our coaches question how effective SW can be running this Zone read PACKAGE that is a staple of what CGM wants to do in the offense.

The rest is my opinion.  I said speed but it's really running ability and intincts that SW does not possess enough of for the Zone read. And yes if you want to be dominant running this the qb needs to have good speed and be a real threat running the football. Another worry about SW is could he even stay healthy.

This is MY opinion but see 2011 that's about what this offense will be with SW. Trotter was a good passer with some speed also. He did not scare anybody running the football though. I do think SW is a better qb than Trotter just not going to be able to lead the team to championships in CGM offense. We do not possess the talent with our veteran wr to let White try to air the ball out. We have to run the football.

 

[AUwent 3,749]

^I hope we don't suffer those five-touchdown blowouts like in 2011. I get your point, though--'09 might be a better comparison.

[johnnyAU 3,630]

1 hour ago, austudnt23 said:

OK your right.. maybe u should be our coach lol. I am saying in our offense it is better. We can coach JF3 up to improve his passing, but we can't coach up speed to SW. You either have the speed or you don't. I'm not saying either SW is super slow because he isn't slow but he does not possess the speed to make him any kind of a threat in our offense

Fact, it is only a staple if they choose it to be a staple. Neither Chris Todd nor Cam Newton ran nearly as much zone read as Nick Marshall, each for different reasons. Malzahn wants to run the ball. He can do that with the RB's and HB's on hand. He can also help open up those running lanes via the passing game. With SW in the game, the reliance on the zone read goes down and the ability to spread the ball to the WR's goes up. JJ, theoretically could do both (granted if he has fixed a few things from last season...in a big way), but of course would likely keep the ball more between the tackles instead of outside like NM, and JFIII would in all probability run a heavy zone read package and keep it to the outside where he could do the most damage. 

3 different QB's, 3 different styles, 3 different strategies. This isn't a zone read offense. It is a run heavy offense with elements of zone read, the percentage depending on the QB's strengths. 

Any one of them could be successful if the offense was tailored to fit them. We'll see which ones have adapted during the off season and fixed their respective issues. 

Best of luck to them all. 

WDE

(and this offense will be nothing remotely like 2011)

[austudnt23 1,432]

3 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

Fact, it is only a staple if they choose it to be a staple. Neither Chris Todd nor Cam Newton ran nearly as much zone read as Nick Marshall, each for different reasons. Malzahn wants to run the ball. He can do that with the RB's and HB's on hand. He can also help open up those running lanes via the passing game. With SW in the game, the reliance on the zone read goes down and the ability to spread the ball to the WR's goes up. JJ, theoretically could do both (granted if he has fixed a few things from last season...in a big way), but of course would likely keep the ball more between the tackles instead of outside like NM, and JFIII would in all probability run a heavy zone read package and keep it to the outside where he could do the most damage. 

3 different QB's, 3 different styles, 3 different strategies. This isn't a zone read offense. It is a run heavy offense with elements of zone read, the percentage depending on the QB's strengths. 

Any one of them could be successful if the offense was tailored to fit them. We'll see which ones have adapted during the off season and fixed their respective issues. 

Best of luck to them all. 

WDE

we don't have Cam Newton the best player in the history of college football which is the other very successful season with CGM besides 2013.  I said SW could be a good qb, but we can't win the SEC with him imo.  We did spread the ball out with Todd, but we also didn't win any big games or have what I consider a successful season. I don't believe our senior wrs are good enough for us to go to an air attack like that. We have freshman coming in that will eventually be good enough for that.  JJ really wasn't effective either running the Zone read. His first 3 steps are 2 slow, he does not have mental ability to make reads, and he does not like contact. You are correct though we have had the different elements to fit our qbs strength.

[johnnyAU 3,630]

2 minutes ago, austudnt23 said:

we don't have Cam Newton the best player in the history of college football which is the other very successful season with CGM besides 2013.  I said SW could be a good qb, but we can't win the SEC with him imo.  We did spread the ball out with Todd, but we also didn't win any big games or have what I consider a successful season. I don't believe our senior wrs are good enough for us to go to an air attack like that. We have freshman coming in that will eventually be good enough for that.  JJ really wasn't effective either running the Zone read. His first 3 steps are 2 slow, he does not have mental ability to make reads, and he does not like contact. You are correct though we have had the different elements to fit our qbs strength.

Nick Marshall had to start airing it out quite a bit in the latter half of 2014 when the D's started overloading the LOS. I don't believe JFIII can make them pay through the air, and he isn't NM in the run game, at least yet.  We aren't going to win the SEC with a predominantly zone read attack either.

Regardless, we can be a pretty decent team with the weapons on hand. Don't discount the young WR's and the potential use of the TE's in the passing game. Just look at last season's FR WR's in the SEC to see how much of an impact they can have in just Christian Kirk and Calvin Ridley alone.  

[AlaskanFAN 1,666]

I just have a feeling Gus does not start JF3, against Clemson. He is unproven, at Florida State and Last Chance U. To start a quarterback first game of the season at home, on television against last years National Championship runner up that also returns multiple starters, the front runner for the Heisman and experienced backups, Gus won't risk it. He will go with a proven quarterback, that knows the offense. Now that's not saying JF3 won't have a few skripted plays, to test Clemsons speed. 

[austudnt23 1,432]

8 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

Nick Marshall had to start airing it out quite a bit in the latter half of 2014 when the D's started overloading the LOS. I don't believe JFIII can make them pay through the air, and he isn't NM in the run game, at least yet.  We aren't going to win the SEC with a predominantly zone read attack either.

Regardless, we can be a pretty decent team with the weapons on hand. Don't discount the young WR's and the potential use of the TE's in the passing game. Just look at last season's FR WR's in the SEC to see how much of an impact they can have in just Christian Kirk and Calvin Ridley alone.  

Maybe JF3 will be good enough to hurt teams through the air, and maybe he won't. The thing is if he is able to hurt teams through the air then we can be special. Thats why the coaches and many of us fans are hoping he will be effective enough through the air to get the job. Yes CK and CR were very good last year. We would need to have a few wrs step up to be able to have an air it out attack that we could win big with. I personally don't think the SEC can be won at this time with an spread it out air attack. Maybe we can't win the SEC again with a predominantly zone read attack, but at this time the coaches think we can.  we won the SEC and should have won the National title in 2013 with it. 

[80Tiger 899]

1 hour ago, austudnt23 said:

Maybe JF3 will be good enough to hurt teams through the air, and maybe he won't. The thing is if he is able to hurt teams through the air then we can be special. Thats why the coaches and many of us fans are hoping he will be effective enough through the air to get the job. Yes CK and CR were very good last year. We would need to have a few wrs step up to be able to have an air it out attack that we could win big with. I personally don't think the SEC can be won at this time with an spread it out air attack. Maybe we can't win the SEC again with a predominantly zone read attack, but at this time the coaches think we can.  we won the SEC and should have won the National title in 2013 with it. 

Just give up 23. There is a segment of our fans that do not want to recognize that at AU Gus's offenses are better with a QB that can run the zone read package. Yes we want to be able to throw the ball but I believe that if the coaches had to choose what to best at it would be running. As you said we have won the SEC with predominately running attack.

[johnnyAU 3,630]

1 hour ago, austudnt23 said:

Maybe JF3 will be good enough to hurt teams through the air, and maybe he won't. The thing is if he is able to hurt teams through the air then we can be special. Thats why the coaches and many of us fans are hoping he will be effective enough through the air to get the job. Yes CK and CR were very good last year. We would need to have a few wrs step up to be able to have an air it out attack that we could win big with. I personally don't think the SEC can be won at this time with an spread it out air attack. Maybe we can't win the SEC again with a predominantly zone read attack, but at this time the coaches think we can.  we won the SEC and should have won the National title in 2013 with it. 

Who said it was an all out air attack? I clearly said we would be run heavy and help open up the run with the passing game. That is a huge difference in a spread it out air attack. You read what you want to read apparently.

I also don't think you know what the coaches "think we can do".  We also went 8-5 (one game different than 7-6) with a predominantly zone read attack in 2014. 

[johnnyAU 3,630]

17 minutes ago, 80Tiger said:

Just give up 23. There is a segment of our fans that do not want to recognize that at AU Gus's offenses are better with a QB that can run the zone read package. Yes we want to be able to throw the ball but I believe that if the coaches had to choose what to best at it would be running. As you said we have won the SEC with predominately running attack.

Cam did not run a predominantly zone read offense.

[AUwent 3,749]

3 hours ago, 80Tiger said:

Just give up 23. There is a segment of our fans that do not want to recognize that at AU Gus's offenses are better with a QB that can run the zone read package. Yes we want to be able to throw the ball but I believe that if the coaches had to choose what to best at it would be running. As you said we have won the SEC with predominately running attack.

I like reading 23's posts as much as anyone (and he gives me hope for this season), but this article makes a few good points: http://www.collegeandmagnolia.com/2016/8/1/12312320/can-auburn-win-without-a-mobile-quarterback-of-course-they-can

EDIT: since the article I originally posted (the one quoted below) was from last summer with JJ, this one fits better, obviously.

[johnnyAU 3,630]

4 minutes ago, AUwent said:

I like reading 23's posts as much as anyone (and he gives me hope for this season), but this article makes a few good points: http://www.collegeandmagnolia.com/2015/6/9/8720653/gus-malzahn-and-the-myth-of-the-mobile-quarterback

Nice article. 

[AUEngineer2016 407]

Noticed a couple of good plays from the video of FSU's spring game that I think show Franklin's passing ability.

1. In the first play (7:25 in the video) the Gold offense runs a pass play from a Singleback 4WR set. The receivers run a Smash pattern, where both Inside WRs run 6 yd deep curl patterns and the outside WRs run flat patterns towards the boundary. This play is designed to with a man/zone read in mind - if the defense is playing in Man coverage, the QB's read becomes the inside WRs, and if not, the QB goes through a progression to find an open target (most likely inside -> outside). 

Franklin on the play reads that the defense is in man coverage, but notices that the safety covering the outside WR at the bottom of the screen is playing an inside technique. If he can get the ball out to the receiver quickly, the receiver will have a chance to pull the pass in, turn up field, and get a few yards before the defenders can reach him. 

 

When JF3 takes the snap, he immediately turns to fire at the outside WR. Notice how he's shifting his weight nicely to his back leg. Also notice that his target receiver is at least 4.5 yards from the nearest defender. 

 

Franklin, using his core and leg strength, fires the ball towards the receiver. The speed he puts on the ball allows the receiver to make the charging defender miss and pick up 9 yards on the play. 

2. In the second play (7:31), Franklin comes off his original target because a better option became available. 

The inside receivers on the play have an option route, meaning they can choose what pattern to run based on the coverage. These can be multiple patterns, but commonly a hitch/out or hitch/in combination is used (I've also shown a hitch/corner route in the diagram for demonstration purposes). 

Initially, it appears that the outside receivers, who are running shallow out routes, are open on the play. Franklin loads, preparing to make the pass. As he is winding up, he notices the defenders (who are watching him and making their own decisions) decide to defend the outside receiver at the bottom of the screen. Franklin clutches, reloads, and refocuses his attention on the inside WR, who (now that the defender has chosen the outside WR) is open on the deep out. 

 

Franklin's decision turned what was likely a 5 yard gain into a 23 yard gain because it got the ball to a receiver in space and allows him to make a play with his own athleticism. 

While these two plays are very good plays, the spring game does support the information that while Franklin contains all of the tools to be a very good passer, he does lack consistency. On the next two plays, Franklin struggles and throws two passes too low to receivers in the flat. On 3rd and 10, the pocket collapses, Franklin is sacked, and the drive stalls. If JF3 is to become the starting QB for Auburn this fall, he will need to show the coaches that he can make the kind of plays that he's capable of consistently. 

 

[chimesAU 89]

48 minutes ago, AUEngineer2016 said:

Noticed a couple of good plays from the video of FSU's spring game that I think show Franklin's passing ability.

1. In the first play (7:25 in the video) the Gold offense runs a pass play from a Singleback 4WR set. The receivers run a Smash pattern, where both Inside WRs run 6 yd deep curl patterns and the outside WRs run flat patterns towards the boundary. This play is designed to with a man/zone read in mind - if the defense is playing in Man coverage, the QB's read becomes the inside WRs, and if not, the QB goes through a progression to find an open target (most likely inside -> outside). 

Franklin on the play reads that the defense is in man coverage, but notices that the safety covering the outside WR at the bottom of the screen is playing an inside technique. If he can get the ball out to the receiver quickly, the receiver will have a chance to pull the pass in, turn up field, and get a few yards before the defenders can reach him. 

 

When JF3 takes the snap, he immediately turns to fire at the outside WR. Notice how he's shifting his weight nicely to his back leg. Also notice that his target receiver is at least 4.5 yards from the nearest defender. 

 

Franklin, using his core and leg strength, fires the ball towards the receiver. The speed he puts on the ball allows the receiver to make the charging defender miss and pick up 9 yards on the play. 

2. In the second play (7:31), Franklin comes off his original target because a better option became available. 

The inside receivers on the play have an option route, meaning they can choose what pattern to run based on the coverage. These can be multiple patterns, but commonly a hitch/out or hitch/in combination is used (I've also shown a hitch/corner route in the diagram for demonstration purposes). 

Initially, it appears that the outside receivers, who are running shallow out routes, are open on the play. Franklin loads, preparing to make the pass. As he is winding up, he notices the defenders (who are watching him and making their own decisions) decide to defend the outside receiver at the bottom of the screen. Franklin clutches, reloads, and refocuses his attention on the inside WR, who (now that the defender has chosen the outside WR) is open on the deep out. 

 

Franklin's decision turned what was likely a 5 yard gain into a 23 yard gain because it got the ball to a receiver in space and allows him to make a play with his own athleticism. 

While these two plays are very good plays, the spring game does support the information that while Franklin contains all of the tools to be a very good passer, he does lack consistency. On the next two plays, Franklin struggles and throws two passes too low to receivers in the flat. On 3rd and 10, the pocket collapses, Franklin is sacked, and the drive stalls. If JF3 is to become the starting QB for Auburn this fall, he will need to show the coaches that he can make the kind of plays that he's capable of consistently. 

 

I saw a guy who slung the ball around like he was playing in his backyard. 

[austudnt23 1,432]

2 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

Who said it was an all out air attack? I clearly said we would be run heavy and help open up the run with the passing game. That is a huge difference in a spread it out air attack. You read what you want to read apparently.

I also don't think you know what the coaches "think we can do".  We also went 8-5 (one game different than 7-6) with a predominantly zone read attack in 2014. 

Cam was the best player in college football history. We don't have anyone remotely close to be able to do what we did with Cam. Even though he had what 1400 yards rushing in 2010. In 2014 our Oline and defense failed us at times. Even with those problems had we beaten A&M that season would have turned out different.  We lost swagger and confidence after that heartbreaking loss. You are taking this to personnal and I honestly don't care if you believe what I am saying or not. I am done arguing this point. The last thing I will say is the coaches are hoping JF3 will be efficient enough throwing to be the starter that's an absolute fact. As for that article Gus Malzahn has 2 SEC titles and one national title so it might be a myth that his offense requires a dual threat qb but he hasn't won a title without one. Also you can take a look at our recruiting do u see any qb that we are recruiting or have a commitment from that is not a dual threat guy? Jf3 last year, WB this year, Lowell Narcisse Kellen Mond and Tray Bishop who is committed for 2017, and Joey Gatewood for 2018. What does that tell you how the coaches are thinking?

[CleCoTiger 1,957]

4 hours ago, austudnt23 said:

Fact: our coaches question how effective SW can be running this Zone read PACKAGE that is a staple of what CGM wants to do in the offense.

 

 

Now you've gone from being opinionated to just flat wrong. You have watched 2013 and 2014 and think that the zone read is a basic and necessary part of the Mazlahn offensive system. It isn't. Never was. It was an adaptation for the talent on hand.  Malzahn/Lashlee/Hand know how to run a passing offense. this I know.

[cole256 17,080]

So you basically just told him he don't know but you REALLY know

[austudnt23 1,432]

18 minutes ago, CleCoTiger said:

 

Now you've gone from being opinionated to just flat wrong. You have watched 2013 and 2014 and think that the zone read is a basic and necessary part of the Mazlahn offensive system. It isn't. Never was. It was an adaptation for the talent on hand.  Malzahn/Lashlee/Hand know how to run a passing offense. this I know.

Actually it is a fact that they question how affective SW would be running it. CGM wants the zone read as part of his offense. Now if SW ends up starting I don't know how much it will be a part. SW ran the zone read at times last year. Cleco I know that they know how to run a passing offense that was obvious at Tulsa. We don't have the personnel to do so atm. Also there is the fact that alot of people around the program don't believe that a passing offense will be one that we can win a championship with in the SEC. CGM wants a power running attack and believes that is the way to win in the SEC. The fact is SW doesn't fit the current system the coaches want to run. If JF3 doesnt pan out throwing the football i am sure they will adapt to White, but the preference is that JF3 be able to win the job. I never said that the zone read was something CGM has always ran, but that is something he wants as a part of his offensive system atm.

[cole256 17,080]

This is the same boring circle with the same people saying the same stuff. Is there anybody who felt like one guy was going to start but now don't? That could possibly be interesting

[DAG 33,983]

1 minute ago, cole256 said:

This is the same boring circle with the same people saying the same stuff. Is there anybody who felt like one guy was going to start but now don't? That could possibly be interesting

 

Now, Cole..You know parity isn't possible around here. SARCASM ALERT

[DAG 33,983]

3 hours ago, 80Tiger said:

Just give up 23. There is a segment of our fans that do not want to recognize that at AU Gus's offenses are better with a QB that can run the zone read package. Yes we want to be able to throw the ball but I believe that if the coaches had to choose what to best at it would be running. As you said we have won the SEC with predominately running attack.

 

I don't know about zone read, but the facts remain that under Gus Malzahn, we have been dominant with a DT-QB in the backfield. Stats back it up folks. Do not get emotional about it.

[chimesAU 89]

7 hours ago, cole256 said:

This is the same boring circle with the same people saying the same stuff. Is there anybody who felt like one guy was going to start but now don't? That could possibly be interesting

I know things, Cole.