Hugh Freeze Resigns

[Barnacle 9,064]

At some point, coaches will probably start making "too much." The reason will be that they are no longer able to bring the same amount of value relative to their salary. Then, the market will do what markets are supposed to do. It will correct itself, and salaries will level off. We aren't there yet. 

[AU64 10,122]

In any industry, those who perform the best in a results measurement, usually get paid the most.  By many comparisons, NS is underpaid or certainly not overpaid...look at the NFL HC coaching salary scale...    http://coacheshotseat.com/NFLCoachesSalaries.htm   

And tell me why Fisher  or Sean Payton are worth as much as Saban for a much easier job?  and much poorer results?  

JMO but if you are  in the college football business, the marketplace drives what coaches are going to make.....and if you can't afford to pay the going rate, you might as well lower your expectations and get what you can for whatever you can pay. 

 

[Beaker 2,457]

I didn't want to do this, but heck.  

Someone contact Jay J and tell him if Gus doesn't win 10, I will take over for half the salary.  I will shoulder the burden and criticism working for $2.5 mil.  I hate to work and be "underpaid" but none of you are willing to step up.  

Big Bird - I want you on staff.   E - you are my recruiting coord and running all the daily operations.  Golf  - I will need some old school "spirtual advising" with all these soft, candy-type kids these days.

I wonder if Houston Nutt is avail...crap, bad idea.  I don't want anyone checking my phone or looking in my mailbox.  I think I will hire Mike Leach to keep things light and loose.  And I will definitely hire Pat Nix!

[DAG 34,014]

1 hour ago, lionheartkc said:

Something A LOT more important than college football.

Which looks pretty bad on paper (though A LOT better than the majority of schools), but when you consider the circumstances surrounding it, it's all fixable, and should be fixed this year. As long as I can understand why something is the way it is, and know that the why has been addressed, it doesn't bug me.  That's why I will NEVER watch last year's Clemson game again... there is no why for that one.

Let's face it... this is the SEC. If you're not winning titles you're coaching for your job. If it make you feel better think of Gus' salary as half what Harbaugh makes, and he's 20-3 and 1-1 in bowl games in his 2 years against much weaker overall competition. 

4

What a reach. Jim Harbaugh is one of the best coaches in the nation. He was 29-6 at the D-1 AA level,  He was 29-21 at Stanford and now is 20-6 at Michigan. Not to mention, he was 44-19 in the NFL. So, yes CGM salary should be half of JH's. JH has proven to be successful at every level of football. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

20 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

However, you- like Bradshaw- did say early on and very specifically that saban makes too much, and that was the comment that I and others were responding to. Given the context of the conversation, I'll forgive myself and others who inferred that you were referring to his salary relative to that of others in the profession.

Actually, what I said early on was that all college football coaches are overpaid, including Saban and everyone jumped on that as if I was just saying he was overpaid. Of course many assumed I was saying he was and Gus wasn't, which I never even hinted at. 

22 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

*Now, I did say that football revenue at alabama has grown by far more than what they're paying him- their profit has gone from $7 million to $47 million during his tenure, so several multiples of his increases in salary in terms of percentage- and that enrollment has grown by 13,000 students. That's a 30-40% increase in enrollment in 10 years. I don't have a way to factor how much that affects the university's bottom line, but it looks like Forbes does. I wonder if they have any grasp on the big picture? Not to mention how much positive effect there is on the state economy when the 2 big teams are winning. Anyway, it seems that the growth of saban's employer is significantly outpacing what they're paying him. Maybe they won't catch Lowe's or any other companies who fit your preferred economic model, but they're certainly headed in the right direction. 

While the success of his team does allow him to take some credit for the growth (mostly for play-off/championship game payouts), you also have to consider that the SEC is a profit sharing conference, so part of that is due to the overall success of the SEC. Georgia raked in $41 mill (several million more than Alabama, incidentally) from the SEC last year and we know Kirby had nothing to do with that. And a big chunk of that growth is from the SEC Network, which was founded during Saban's tenure and is was HUGE windfall for every school in the SEC.

I'm not sure where you get the $7 million number. They profited $36.7 million in 2008.  The $47 million is correct for 2015. So, while their profit has gone up 27%, his salary has gone up almost 300% (200% if you don't count the most recent bump).

Oh, here's another interesting number to consider with Saban's tenure at Alabama. In 2015, football revenue had grown by 48% since 2008... At the same time football expenses had increased by 76%. So their expenses are outpacing their income by almost 60%. 

Another interesting number... Auburn's revenue went up nearly $30 million over the past two years, when our performance has been anything but positive. In fact, during that time period donations actually dropped and our numbers still went up dramatically.

I'm not sure how you are giving him credit for enrollment growth.  I'm sure the people who work in enrollment management, whose job it is to increase enrollment, would take offense at that.

And seriously, Loof.  It's not my "preferred economic model", it's the American economy.  I'm not making stuff up and shoving it into the box of my choosing, I'm looking at what the overall economy is doing and how college football is not even in the same ballpark.  

[lionheartkc 6,150]

19 minutes ago, DAG said:

What a reach. Jim Harbaugh is one of the best coaches in the nation. He was 29-6 at the D-1 AA level,  He was 29-21 at Stanford and now is 20-6 at Michigan. Not to mention, he was 44-19 in the NFL. So, yes CGM salary should be half of JH's. JH has proven to be successful at every level of football. 

Hmmmm 29-21 at Stanford is one of the best coaches in the nation, but 23-16 at Auburn while fighting through injuries is unacceptable. Your bias is showing.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

53 minutes ago, AU64 said:

In any industry, those who perform the best in a results measurement, usually get paid the most.  By many comparisons, NS is underpaid or certainly not overpaid...look at the NFL HC coaching salary scale...    http://coacheshotseat.com/NFLCoachesSalaries.htm   

You do realize that he now makes $3 million more than every coach on that list, right?  Pete Carroll should have stayed in college.  He'd be making more money now.

[AU64 10,122]

Just now, lionheartkc said:

You do realize that he now makes $3 million more than every coach on that list, right?  Pete Carroll should have stayed in college.  He'd be making more money now.

Maybe...but a much harder job IMO and much less security than the NFL.  Once in that league, almost no matter what kind of W-L record you have, someone will hire you if you get fired by another team.

As for NS....who knows how much he gets off the books at bama from grateful fans.....but..other than Belichick, he's been more successful at his job than most of those other guys.   ......many of whom would be glad to have Gus's W-L record.    Guess a case can be made that most NFL coaches are over-paid if you consider their records.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Just now, AU64 said:

Maybe...but a much harder job IMO and much less security than the NFL.  Once in that league, almost no matter what kind of W-L record you have, someone will hire you if you get fired by another team.

The Kansas City Chiefs would argue with that point. Of course, they may be where coaches go to die.

1 minute ago, AU64 said:

Guess a case can be made that most NFL coaches are over-paid if you consider their records.

Probably, though I would imagine that their salaries are more commiserate with the money being brought in, since the owners are looking for profit to pad their pockets.  Still, it's the fans that suffer.  They charge $40-50/game to park at Arrowhead, now, on top of ticket prices, because they have to pay these crazy salaries.  The same thing is going to happen at college until no one can afford to go to the games.

[DAG 34,014]

Just now, lionheartkc said:

Hmmmm 29-21 at Stanford is one of the best coaches in the nation, but 23-16 at Auburn while fighting through injuries is unacceptable. Your bias is showing.

Are you comparing Stanford to AU? and you want to be taken seriously? JH is the reason Stanford is a household name again. JH lead Stanford to their first BCS Bowl victory in program history. Stanford has never won 11 games in a regular season before he got there. Not even Bill Walsh who is a HOF coach took Stanford to 11 games. He took over a team who had won 1 game prior to him getting there.  In four years, he took a school from 1-11 to 12-1. How many top ten recruiting classes do you think he had at Stanford?

[McLoofus 35,182]

24 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

Actually, what I said early on was that all college football coaches are overpaid, including Saban and everyone jumped on that as if I was just saying he was overpaid. Of course many assumed I was saying he was and Gus wasn't, which I never even hinted at. 

Mea culpa. I picked up at the "He hasn't done anything to earn $7 million" post. Which, without context, is kind of crazy.

Quote

While the success of his team does allow him to take some credit for the growth (mostly for play-off/championship game payouts), you also have to consider that the SEC is a profit sharing conference, so part of that is due to the overall success of the SEC.

If I'm not mistaken, there was prior discussion that saban's success actually raised the bar for the whole SEC. And, really, it's not hard to make a case for. It all goes to recruiting. He changed how its done- remember when we all laughed at them for claiming the recruiting national title?- and now the top half of the league recruits like no other conference in the country does, and it's what has separated the league from the rest.

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Georgia raked in $41 mill (several million more than Alabama, incidentally) from the SEC last year and we know Kirby had nothing to do with that.

Perhaps on the first part, but maybe pointing out that one of the top teams in the league- like the other top team in their division- hired a saban accolyte in an attempt to replicate his success isn't a good way to say that he hasn't done anything special. 

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And a big chunk of that growth is from the SEC Network, which was founded during Saban's tenure and is was HUGE windfall for every school in the SEC. 

Yep. The bar was raised.

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I'm not sure where you get the $7 million number. They profited $36.7 million in 2008.  

2006 was the last season before saban took over. That's where the $7 million came from.

Quote

The $47 million is correct for 2015. So, while their profit has gone up 27%, his salary has gone up almost 300% (200% if you don't count the most recent bump).

And yet, they are still clearing more profit.

Some maths: 
-Say bama pays saban $1 and earns $10. They've paid him 10% of their revenue and profited $9.
-Ten years later, bama pays saban $5 and earn $20. They've quintupled his  salary from 10 years ago and given him 25% of revenue- vs. only 10% ten years ago- while only doubling their revenue. However, they've profited $15, which is 67% more than they profited year one.
-saban's salary has gone up 500% while bama's revenue has only gone up 100%, yet they still profited 67% more. 

I dunno. Doesn't seem like such a bad deal for bama. 

Quote

Another interesting number... Auburn's revenue went up nearly $30 million over the past two years, when our performance has been anything but positive. In fact, during that time period donations actually dropped and our numbers still went up dramatically.

Cool. We're paying the cost of doing business. No argument there.

Quote

I'm not sure how you are giving him credit for enrollment growth.  I'm sure the people who work in enrollment management, whose job it is to increase enrollment, would take offense at that.

Probably just talking to a bunch of people who don't get the big picture, like this guy:

Quote

       “Just like Nick Saban has recruited five-star athletes, the university is going after the best and brightest students,” said Calvin Brown,         Alabama’s director of alumni affairs. “We understand that there are young people out there who first view us, or any other institution,           through the window of athletics.”

 

[AU64 10,122]

24 minutes ago, DAG said:

Are you comparing Stanford to AU? and you want to be taken seriously? JH is the reason Stanford is a household name again. JH lead Stanford to their first BCS Bowl victory in program history. Stanford has never won 11 games in a regular season before he got there. Not even Bill Walsh who is a HOF coach took Stanford to 11 games. He took over a team who had won 1 game prior to him getting there.  In four years, he took a school from 1-11 to 12-1. How many top ten recruiting classes do you think he had at Stanford?

Not saying he was not a good coach but at Stanford his success was mostly just Luck...

[DAG 34,014]

24 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Not saying he was not a good coach but at Stanford his success was mostly just Luck...

Andrew Luck played a huge part, of course. But are you trying to diminish what he did at Stanford with Luck?

Who do you think recruited and groomed him? Let me show you the schools who offered Andrew Luck.

Stanford, Oklahoma State, Purdue, Rice and Virginia.

So Andrew Luck also caught all the passes, made tackles and blocked for Stanford? With all those blue chip players around him. 

No, that top 25 defense barely helped.

 

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

15 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Not saying he was not a good coach but at Stanford his success was mostly just Luck...

 

1 minute ago, DAG said:

Andrew Luck played a huge part, of course. But are you trying to diminish what he did at Stanford with Luck?

Who do you think recruited and groomed him? Let me show you the schools who offered Andrew Luck.

Stanford, Oklahoma State, Purdue, Rice and Virginia.

Dang, did Luck play for Harbaugh? Has he already been in the NFL that long? I was thinking he was a Shaw guy. WHERE DOES THE TIME GO

[DAG 34,014]

3 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

 

Dang, did Luck play for Harbaugh? Has he already been in the NFL that long? I was thinking he was a Shaw guy. WHERE DOES THE TIME GO

Yep. JH went into Texas and recruited and groomed him. Fascinating isn't it? He did play his last year with Shaw though.

[AU64 10,122]

3 minutes ago, DAG said:

Andrew Luck played a huge part, of course. But are you trying to diminish what he did at Stanford with Luck?

Who do you think recruited and groomed him? Let me show you the schools who offered Andrew Luck.

Stanford, Oklahoma State, Purdue, Rice and Virginia.

 

 

Other than Oky State ...what do they have in common?    Academic excellence.....and he was never going to some football factory. 

Just for the record, in his two best years they played only a total of three top 10 teams and lost all three games....

Otherwise, JH had two good years at Stanford and hit the trail...which was a smart thing for him to do.  .. JMO

[DAG 34,014]

6 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Other than Oky State ...what do they have in common?    Academic excellence.....and he was never going to some football factory. 

Just for the record, in his two best years they played only a total of three top 10 teams and lost all three games....

Otherwise, JH had two good years at Stanford and hit the trail...which was a smart thing for him to do.  .. JMO

How would you know what he was going to do? He was never offered a scholarship from a football factory for you to say such a thing. 

Where was Andrew Luck in this? He did a lot more with LESS. That was the point. Sure he lost to top ten programs. I never said he was perfect. But he got the best out of a school without a gross amount of top ten talent. This is why it is asinine to compare CGM to JH.

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, DAG said:

Yep. JH went into Texas and recruited and groomed him. Fascinating isn't it? He did play his last year with Shaw though.

Whew, 'preciate the save at the end there. 

Yeah, Harbaugh's always been an innovator, and he's up there in Ann Arbor changing the sport every way he can think to. He's taking his team on annual trips to Europe, for chrissakes. Two straight top 5 classes. Won't be long for them. Even if they don't win with him, though, he has put Michigan back in the spotlight and I imagine the booster $ is through the roof. 

That conference is seeing the same thing we did, except they found a 2nd coach to match their 1st superstar. 

 

[DAG 34,014]

Just now, McLoofus said:

Whew, 'preciate the save at the end there. 

Yeah, Harbaugh's always been an innovator, and he's up there in Ann Arbor changing the sport every way he can think to. He's taking his team on annual trips to Europe, for chrissakes. Two straight top 5 classes. Won't be long for them. Even if they don't win with him, though, he has put Michigan back in the spotlight and I imagine the booster $ is through the roof. 

That conference is seeing the same thing we did, except they found a 2nd coach to match their 1st superstar. 

 

Yeah. I am a big fan of his. Very blue collar, fun guy. He needs to get over that Ohio State hump though. I think he will.

[stoic-one 1,549]

Silly me, came in here thinking this was a Hugh Freeze thread, never mind...

[lionheartkc 6,150]

31 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

If I'm not mistaken, there was prior discussion that saban's success actually raised the bar for the whole SEC. And, really, it's not hard to make a case for. It all goes to recruiting. He changed how its done- remember when we all laughed at them for claiming the recruiting national title?- and now the top half of the league recruits like no other conference in the country does, and it's what has separated the league from the rest.

No argument there. He definitely raised the bar. I was having a discussion with DAG earlier about how I feel like he raised it to the point of insanity when it comes to fan bases and administration (citing Richt and Miles as prime examples).

33 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

2006 was the last season before saban took over. That's where the $7 million came from.

I got screwed up by that for a minute, too.  The money numbers don't actually come in until a year later. So 2008 numbers reference the 2007 season.  Also, in 2006 they apparently did a major upgrade to something, because they spent FAR more than usual... $60.6 million.  They spent $33 million less then following year.

34 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Some maths: 
-Say bama pays saban $1 and earns $10. They've paid him 10% of their revenue and profited $9.
-Ten years later, bama pays saban $5 and earn $20. They've quintupled his  salary from 10 years ago and given him 25% of revenue- vs. only 10% ten years ago- while only doubling their revenue. However, they've profited $15, which is 67% more than they profited year one.
-saban's salary has gone up 500% while bama's revenue has only gone up 100%, yet they still profited 67% more. 

I dunno. Doesn't seem like such a bad deal for bama. 

It's not a bad deal for them, yet, or they wouldn't do it, but from an accounting standpoint, it's ludicrous. Salary increases should never outpace revenue increases. At some point, it will catch up with you.

37 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Probably just talking to a bunch of people who don't get the big picture, like this guy:

Quote

       “Just like Nick Saban has recruited five-star athletes, the university is going after the best and brightest students,” said Calvin Brown,         Alabama’s director of alumni affairs. “We understand that there are young people out there who first view us, or any other institution,           through the window of athletics.”

Sure there are, but I would be willing to bet that not even a quarter of the 13,000 new students would cite the football team as why they chose to go there. It's great for brand awareness, but very few non-athletes go to a school because they like the football team, and even fewer based on how well they are playing.  

[AU64 10,122]

DAG...read the guys' HS bio...he was interested in schools like Stanford before JH was even hired.....don't know what other schools contacted him....after all he was supposed to be a 4th or 5 ranked QB by Rivals and ranked 4* or 5*.   He was not some guy being auctioned off by his parents like we see so often....he was top of his HS class and had already picked his schools before recruitment.  And then he passes up the NFL to stay and get his degree at Stanford even after JH left the school....which is interesting....wonder if when JH  left , he was thinking that AL was going to the pros? 

Sure JH did a good job with him but timing had something to do with it too.....and a very helpful schedule as noted earlier.

 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 hour ago, DAG said:

Are you comparing Stanford to AU? and you want to be taken seriously? JH is the reason Stanford is a household name again. JH lead Stanford to their first BCS Bowl victory in program history. Stanford has never won 11 games in a regular season before he got there. Not even Bill Walsh who is a HOF coach took Stanford to 11 games. He took over a team who had won 1 game prior to him getting there.  In four years, he took a school from 1-11 to 12-1. How many top ten recruiting classes do you think he had at Stanford?

Yea... and how hard is Stanford's schedule? Since people want to forget that Gus lead the greatest turn around in college football history, let's forget 2013 and start with 2014. If Gus wanted to tie Harbaugh's record at Stanford from 2014-2017, he'd have to go 6-7 this year. And while Harbaugh did that facing the PAC-10 when the main powers were struggling, Gus did it against the SEC while they were at the top of their game. In 2010, the year that Stanford finally hit 12-1, only one other team in the PAC-10 had less than 5 losses. 

[DAG 34,014]

1 minute ago, AU64 said:

DAG...read the guys' HS bio...he was interested in schools like Stanford before JH was even hired.....don't know what other schools contacted him....after all he was supposed to be a 4th or 5 ranked QB by Rivals and ranked 4* or 5*.   He was not some guy being auctioned off by his parents like we see so often....he was top of his HS class and had already picked his schools before recruitment.  And then he passes up the NFL to stay and get his degree at Stanford even after JH left the school....which is interesting....wonder if when JH  left , he was thinking that AL was going to the pros? 

Sure JH did a good job with him but timing had something to do with it too.....and a very helpful schedule as noted earlier.

 

Maybe you are right. Nevertheless, to sit here and try to downplay what he did at Stanford (which you are) is ridiculous. This dude had zero top ten classes at Stanford. 1 top 25 class. Do not compare a JH to CGM. That is disrespectful. 

[Barnacle 9,064]

Of course Alabama's enrollment increase is correlated to the success of the football program. I don't think that an admissions officer would be offended by that statement.