Texas Church Shooting- Over 20 Casualties

[AUDub 11,147]

Most comprehensive breakdown yet. 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/texas-gunman-devin-kelley-in-laws-attended-church-shot-article-1.3614529

The gruesome Texas church shooting arose from a “domestic situation” between guman Devin Kelley and his family, officials said Monday.

Kelley had even sent “threatening texts” to his mother-in-law, who attended the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, where he killed 26 people Sunday.

"This was not racially motivated. It wasn't over religious beliefs,” Freeman Martin of the Texas Department of Public Safety told reporters. “There was a domestic situation going on with the family and in-laws.”  

Authorities previously said they weren’t believed to be present at the time of the horrific shooting.

The 26-year-old gunman, who later died after fleeing the scene, was revealed to have a series of domestic violence complaints, and was reportedly convicted while in the military for breaking his stepson’s skull.

Kelley arrived at the church Sunday afternoon decked out in tactical gear, a black facemask with a white skull on it and toting a Ruger 556 assault rifle.

He opened fire inside the church, killing more than two dozen and wounding another 20 people.

The victims ranged in age from 18 months to 77 years, officials said.

An armed neighbor was alerted to the shooting, ran outside with an AR-type rifle and fired at Kelley.

He dropped his assault rifle, hopped in his Ford Explorer and sped off.

The neighbor grabbed another man passing by, and they chased him 11 miles until he crashed, officials said.

Kelley called his father during the chase to say he’d been shot and didn’t think he was going to make it, Martin said.

The disgraced airman then shot himself with one of the two handguns — a Glock 9 mm and a Ruger .22 — police found in his car.

Martin said a cause of death hasn’t been released, but indicated it was from shooting himself.

Kelley’s mayhem wiped out 4% of Sutherland Spring’s population, Wilson County Joe Tackitt told CNN earlier in the day.

The shooting sent shockwaves through the small community located about 35 miles east of San Antonio.

Of those still being treated, Martin said, six are in stable condition and 10 are listed as critical. They ranged in age from 5 to 72 years.

The church was known for taping its sermons and posting them to YouTube.

Authorities have obtained recordings of Sunday’s service, which they said captured some of the carnage.

“It was a horrific event, and at this time we’re not prepared to talk about the video,” Martin said.

Rev. Frank Pomeroy, the church’s regular pastor, was traveling at the time, but his 14-year-old daughter, Annabelle, was among those killed.

An emergency medical facility and a portable refrigerated tent was set up outside the scene.

Kelley had a dark past filled with uneasy encounters and spurned relationships.

A court martial convicted him in 2012 — two years into his stint in the Air Force — of beating his wife and breaking the skull of his infant stepson, the New York Times reported.

At the time he was stationed at a New Mexico Air Force base where he worked in logistics.

“He assaulted his stepson severely enough that he fractured his skull, and he also assaulted his wife,”Don Christensen, a former Air Force chief prosecutor who retired as a colonel, told the newspaper. “He pled to intentionally doing it.”

Kelley was busted down to the lowest rank possible, and sentenced in November 2012 to a one-year confinement. The Air Force booted him with a bad conduct discharge in 2014 when his sentence was up.

Fred Milanowski, the ATF’s special agent in charge based in Houston, said Monday the bureau is looking into whether any terms of the discharge barred him from owning a gun.

Kelley later divorced and married another woman, the Times reported.

Sheriff’s deputies were also called to his home in New Braunfels, Texas, in February 2014 after receiving a domestic violence complaint, a spokesman for the Comal County district attorney told The Associated Press.

A friend of his then-girlfriend claimed to have gotten a text message indicating “her boyfriend was abusing her.”

Kelley at some point applied for a right-to-carry permit in Texas, officials said Monday, adding the request was denied.

He’d received an unarmed security guard license, Martin added, comparing it to the type used by concert security.

Kelley worked as a seasonal guard at the Schlitterbahn water park in New Braunfels for less than six weeks, until he was “terminated” in July, the company said in a statement Monday.

[aujeff11 6,243]

49 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

According to CBS, the Air Force has said his case was a General Court Martial, 

Yeah I saw this. I was specifically looking to see if it was a general court martial. This court is responsible for the most serious crimes while in service. It can be compared to felony court to help paint a better picture, but past that, the felony/ misdemeanor classification system is really of no use to UCMJ.

Usually the issues to purchasing weapons: -domestic violence case

-a felony issue

-or a dishonorable discharge.

The last two probably wouldn’t show up in his case.

49 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

If NICS had records indicating that he was discharged in a General Court Martial, there should have at least been a hold placed on the purchase while someone investigated further.

 

They may not have not known he was court martialed in the General Court. Might’ve saw that he had a BCD and ruled it more favorable than dishonorable and didn’t check into why he was court martialed. With that said, people with a BCD are not necessarily barred from owning weapons. Going AWOL can get service members a BCD. That’s not inherently an egregious offense that should take one’s second amendment rights. 

[aujeff11 6,243]

18 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

A court martial convicted him in 2012 — two years into his stint in the Air Force — of beating his wife and breaking the skull of his infant stepson, the New York Times reported.

He sounds like a real piece of work.

[Strychnine 1,802]

Just now, aujeff11 said:

Yeah I saw this. I was specifically looking to see if it was a general court martial. This court is responsible for the most serious crimes while in service. It can be compared to felony court to help paint a bigger picture, but past that the felony/ misdemeanor classification system is really of no use to UCMJ.

 

They may not have not known he was court martialed in the General Court. Might’ve saw that he had a BCD and and ruled it more favorable than dishonorable and didn’t check into why he was court martialed. With that said, people with BCD are not banned from owning weapons. Going AWOL can get service members a BCD. That’s not inherently an egregious offense that should take one’s second amendment rights. 

 

That is why I think Form 4473 mentions General Court Martial and requires an answer of yes to either of the applicable questions relative to felonies.  I also think it is most likely that NICS had little or no information on him, although the system should have.

[AUDub 11,147]

6 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

He sounds like a real piece of work.

I think you can remove the sounds like qualifier. 

[autigeremt 6,602]

He's not alone. There will be more...the country has lost it's moral compass and the future is grim. Keep yourself protected and make sure to pay close attention to what's going on around you.

[aujeff11 6,243]

3 hours ago, Strychnine said:

I also think it is most likely that NICS had little or no information on him, although the system should have.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/u-s-military-failed-to-send-texas-gunmans-conviction-record-to-fbi-1510009446

Just as we thought, the military never sent the servicemember’s conviction record to the NCIS. Nobody knows why though. 

[Strychnine 1,802]

5 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/u-s-military-failed-to-send-texas-gunmans-conviction-record-to-fbi-1510009446

Just as we thought, the military never sent the servicemember’s conviction record to the NCIS. Nobody knows why though. 

 

It highlights the biggest problem with our background check system, NICS does not necessarily contain complete or current information from all 50 states or the military.  In 2017, with the ubiquity of internet access and basically unlimited data storage capacity, there is no reason for that database to be more than a few hours out of date across the entire country.

[aujeff11 6,243]

32 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

 

It highlights the biggest problem with our background check system, NICS does not necessarily contain complete or current information from all 50 states or the military.  In 2017, with the ubiquity of internet access and basically unlimited data storage capacity, there is no reason for that database to be more than a few hours out of date across the entire country.

One more article. It basically regurgitates all of our talking points. However, I wonder what all gets sent to NCIS. Like I said, my cousin got a DUI at Fort Bragg and he got an OTH discharge I believe. But the perk was that it didn’t go on his record even though he still had to pay thousands in court costs and lose his license just like a civilian would.  It wasn’t a bad deal. He is currently a county deputy.

https://www.google.com/amp/taskandpurpose.com/heres-how-severe-military-punishments-are-supposed-to-bar-gun-possession/amp/

Ok, two articles.

https://www.thetrace.org/rounds/military-domestic-abuse-nics/

[Strychnine 1,802]

1 minute ago, aujeff11 said:

One more article. It basically regurgitates all of our talking points. However, I wonder what all gets sent to NCIS. Like I said, my cousin got a DUI at Fort Bragg and he got an OTH discharge I believe. But the perk was that it didn’t go on his record even though he still had to pay thousands in court costs and lose his license just like a civilian would.  It wasn’t a bad deal. He is currently a county deputy.

https://www.google.com/amp/taskandpurpose.com/heres-how-severe-military-punishments-are-supposed-to-bar-gun-possession/amp/

 

NICS is only intended to provide quick background checks for firearm purchases.  As such, anything relevant to disqualifying someone from being able to legally purchase a firearm should be there.  Arrest records, charges, and convictions absolutely belong there, if for no reason other than to generate a hold on a purchase while a human reviews it.

I have no idea what the military reports in terms of arrest records, charges, or convictions, or if there is even a definitive rule on it.  If he was arrested by MP's on Fort Bragg, it is entirely possible that absolutely nothing shows up on a background check outside of the military.  If it did show up, a DUI might not have precluded him from a job as a deputy if he owned it properly during an interview.

[aujeff11 6,243]

10 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

If he was arrested by MP's on Fort Bragg, it is entirely possible that absolutely nothing shows up on a background check outside of the military. 

It is entirely possible; I said as much myself when I literally just said this is what happened.

 

11 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

Arrest records, charges, and convictions absolutely belong there, if for no reason other than to generate a hold on a purchase while a human reviews it.

I don’t know. I guess the agencies that are not reporting it to NICS are not finding benefit in spending the time in reporting these convictions. 

[Strychnine 1,802]

2 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

It is entirely possible; I said as much myself when I literally just said this is what happened.

 

I don’t know. I guess the agencies that are not reporting it to NICS are not finding benefit in spending the time in reporting these convictions. 

 

You said at Fort Bragg, which does not necessarily mean an arrest on Fort Bragg, by MP's.  You could have just as easily meant arrested en route to Fort Bragg after an evening at a nearby bar off base, and did not feel like typing it.  Mentioning thousands in court costs and license suspension made me think it was a civilian law enforcement agency that made the arrest, rather than MP's.  A DUI charge from MP's or civilian LEO's results in military judicial intervention, but my understanding is that court martials of any type usually result in forfeiture of pay and/or rank reduction rather than outright fines.  Military authorities certainly lack the ability to suspend anyone's driver's license without the state's cooperation.

Software can easily take the work out of reporting anything, by automatically reporting arrests, charges, convictions, or any other disposition of charges to a central location.  Software vendors could have accommodated such a requirement within no more than a matter of months, any time in the last 20 years.  Prior to this decade, I could understand some podunk Sheriff's Office not reporting things because they lacked computers or internet access.  However, computers have long since permeated our society to such an extent that a national database used for checking whether or not someone can purchase a firearm should be up to date and complete.

[aujeff11 6,243]

2 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

Software can easily take the work out of reporting anything, by automatically reporting arrests, charges, convictions, or any other disposition of charges to a central location.  Software vendors could have accommodated such a requirement within no more than a matter of months, any time in the last 20 years.  Prior to this decade, I could understand some podunk Sheriff's Office not reporting things because they lacked computers or internet access.  However, computers have long since permeated our society to such an extent that a national database used for checking whether or not someone can purchase a firearm should be up to date and complete.

Don’t know man. The military isn’t reporting it, technology age or not. 

 

24 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

Mentioning thousands in court costs and license suspension made me think it was a civilian law enforcement agency that made the arrest, rather than MP's. 

I may have misremembered by conflating the experiences of two different cousins. I have two cousins that had DUIs, the civilian was a frat brother at UAB and he lost the license. The SM received the punishment that comes with an Article 15 and was discharged

 

33 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

Military authorities certainly lack the ability to suspend anyone's driver's license without the state's cooperation.

  True, but they have the right to keep your ass on base. 

[augolf1716 21,117]

3 hours ago, autigeremt said:

He's not alone. There will be more...the country has lost it's moral compass and the future is grim. Keep yourself protected and make sure to pay close attention to what's going on around you.

Understand but I will not live that way. Always think positive waves

[Strychnine 1,802]

1 minute ago, aujeff11 said:

Don’t know man. The military isn’t reporting it, technology age or not. 

 

I may have misremembered by conflating the experiences of two different cousins. I have two cousins that had DUIs, the civilian was a frat brother at UAB and he lost the license. The SM received the punishment that comes with an Article 15 and was discharged

 

  True, but they have the right to keep your ass on base. 

 

The problem really goes beyond the military, as all even state records are not necessarily available to NICS.

 

Based on the local anecdotal experience (Marines), I think local LEO DUI charges generally result in a BCD or OTH discharge.  Every local Marine arrested by civilian authorities for DUI that I have known, ended up with an OTH discharge.

[RunInRed 16,407]

[AUDub 11,147]

Military failed to report the charges.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/texas-church-shooting/air-force-failed-report-texas-church-gunman-devin-kelley-s-n818156

The Texas church shooter shouldn't have been able to legally own a gun.

But an Air Force officer failed to enter Devin Patrick Kelley's domestic violence court-martial into a national database that would have barred him from buying weapons, the Air Force said Monday.

Top Air Force brass ordered a full review of how the service handled Kelley's conviction at a general court-martial in 2012, Ann Stefanek, a spokeswoman for the Air Force, said in a statement Monday.

[aujeff11 6,243]

11 hours ago, RunInRed said:

?

[homersapien 11,369]

11 hours ago, Bigbens42 said:

Military failed to report the charges.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/texas-church-shooting/air-force-failed-report-texas-church-gunman-devin-kelley-s-n818156

 

 

Only goes to show that gun regulations don't work. 

[SaltyTiger 7,795]

8 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Only goes to show that gun regulations don't work. 

According to your your article it sounds like the Air Force failed unforgivably on some bureaucratic paper work. This sicko would have found a gun regardless of regulations. At the end of the day it took a gun to stop a gun. Are you attempting to turn this thing another gun control thread? 

[homersapien 11,369]

6 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

According to your your article it sounds like the Air Force failed unforgivably on some bureaucratic paper work. This sicko would have found a gun regardless of regulations. At the end of the day it took a gun to stop a gun. Are you attempting to turn this thing another gun control thread? 

It was sarcasm, meant to point out that if we simply executed existing regulations effectively - which we don't - it might help.   Of course, there are other loopholes (deficiencies) in regulation that should be addressed.

Are you attempting to limit the boundaries of this discussion?

[SaltyTiger 7,795]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

It was sarcasm, meant to point out that if we simply executed existing regulations effectively - which we don't - it might help.   Of course, there are other loopholes (deficiencies) in regulation that should be addressed.

Are you attempting to limit the boundaries of this discussion?

 Not limiting any boundaries. I detect no sarcasm in what you said. 

[alexava 6,973]

1 hour ago, SaltyTiger said:

According to your your article it sounds like the Air Force failed unforgivably on some bureaucratic paper work. This sicko would have found a gun regardless of regulations. At the end of the day it took a gun to stop a gun. Are you attempting to turn this thing another gun control thread? 

A gun to stop a gun is the weakest argument you can possibly make. 

[aujeff11 6,243]

15 hours ago, alexava said:

A gun to stop a gun is the weakest argument you can possibly make. 

 People with weapons and relatively honorable intentions have been stopping people with weapons and less than honorable intentions for centuries now. Comparing weapons and the right to them as declared by the second amendment to seat belts and car seats is where it gets weak. 

Reform can be made to limit what’s exactly available but there is nothing wrong with  holding onto weapons that can’t cause drastic amount of harm and/ or collateral damage.

I don’t understand how you can post like a liberal until you want to lock up and swallow the key for anybody that has ever done pot. Sounds like a troll job to me.

[aujeff11 6,243]

https://www.click2houston.com/news/sutherland-springs-church-shooter-escaped-mental-health-facility-months-after-attack-on-wife-child

Just as I figured