Mueller Indictment

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4380459-Internet-Research-Agency-Indictment.html#document/p32 

Let's all read before chopping at each other's heads

[TitanTiger 20,511]

13 Russian nationals indicted for interfering in US elections

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/02/16/13-russian-nationals-indicted-for-interfering-in-us-elections.html

[AUDub 11,184]

Some background on said agency. 

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html?referer=

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Still no evidence of collusion, just interference and no indication of any meaningful effect on the election outcome. How will any of the indicted Russians be forced to respond?

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

22 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

Still no evidence of collusion, just interference and no indication of any meaningful effect on the election outcome. How will any of the indicted Russians be forced to respond?

At least one person involved is an American, so he could be compelled in court and charged.

Also, the investigation isn't over.  We don't know everything that Mueller's team knows.  There are at least three cooperating witnesses now from within the Trump campaign.

As for "meaningful effect on the election outcome", we'll never know that and there's no mechanism for charging such within the DOJ unless actual voter fraud is found.  There's no way to measure how much this interference influenced votes.

What's more important to me is that people, including our President, finally recognize without hesitation that the Russians did interfere with our election and stop questioning our intelligence community with no basis for those questions.  Russians meddling is a problem no matter what side on the aisle you're on.  In fact, the DOJ said the Russians preferred either Trump or Sanders, so it doesn't run just one way.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

2 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

At least one person involved is an American, so he could be compelled in court and charged.

So one of 14 will ever see a court. Big deal and waste of time and money.

Also, the investigation isn't over.  We don't know everything that Mueller's team knows.  There are at least three cooperating witnesses now from within the Trump campaign.

Flynn is now rumored to be wanting to change his guilty plea. Interesting.

As for "meaningful effect on the election outcome", we'll never know that and there's no mechanism for charging such within the DOJ unless actual voter fraud is found.  There's no way to measure how much this interference influenced votes.

I agree so why spend tons of money on something we already knew?

What's more important to me is that people, including our President, finally recognize without hesitation that the Russians did interfere with our election and stop questioning our intelligence community with no basis for those questions.  Russians meddling is a problem no matter what side on the aisle you're on.  In fact, the DOJ said the Russians preferred either Trump or Sanders, so it doesn't run just one way.

The fact they interfered has been known for some time, even before the Mueller team started. They preferred Sanders or Trump at the end but they were helping Clinton earlier. And the intelligence community is still very much in question with stuff like the fake dossier and the questionable FISA warrants. Much more to come I hope or the  Mueller investigation will be a huge waste of taxpayer money.

 

 

[homersapien 11,452]

11 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

 

Seriously?  A big waste of time and money?  

[Randman5000 4,234]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Seriously?  A big waste of time and money?  

You can't convince someone who thinks the Russians and shady characters are not up anything and the FBI and American democrats are the enemy. 

[homersapien 11,452]

4 minutes ago, Randman5000 said:

You can't convince someone who thinks the Russians and shady characters are not up anything and the FBI and American democrats are the enemy. 

Only in PT world.  

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

5 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

At least one person involved is an American, so he could be compelled in court and charged.

Also, the investigation isn't over.  We don't know everything that Mueller's team knows.  There are at least three cooperating witnesses now from within the Trump campaign.

As for "meaningful effect on the election outcome", we'll never know that and there's no mechanism for charging such within the DOJ unless actual voter fraud is found.  There's no way to measure how much this interference influenced votes.

What's more important to me is that people, including our President, finally recognize without hesitation that the Russians did interfere with our election and stop questioning our intelligence community with no basis for those questions.  Russians meddling is a problem no matter what side on the aisle you're on.  In fact, the DOJ said the Russians preferred either Trump or Sanders, so it doesn't run just one way.

What we do know, from the indictment, is that it in no way implements or allegedly imputes knowledge (the key issue re Trump team) of Russia meddling. Please note, i am speaking from a legal perspective which ultimately is the only perspective that matters in a technical sense.

you are right, the investigation is not closed.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

56 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

What we do know, from the indictment, is that it in no way implements or allegedly imputes knowledge (the key issue re Trump team) of Russia meddling. Please note, i am speaking from a legal perspective which ultimately is the only perspective that matters in a technical sense.

you are right, the investigation is not closed.

But it also indicates there was a crime, the investigation of which can be obstructed. And Mueller never shows a card he doesn’t need to without a purpose.

[SaltyTiger 7,864]

Thank goodness Trump was elected......this meddling would have never surfaced otherwise.

[TexasTiger 13,026]

17 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Thank goodness Trump was elected......this meddling would have never surfaced otherwise.

Investigation was underway. But keep playing the conservative  victim card.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

22 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

But it also indicates there was a crime, the investigation of which can be obstructed. And Mueller never shows a card he doesn’t need to without a purpose.

Wrong. An indictment does not indicate there was a crime, but rather it ALLEGES there was a crime. Jury and judge decide if there was a crime. Also, I’m not so sure about the “never shows a card” comment. Its not a gameshow.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

2 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Investigation was underway. But keep playing the conservative  victim card.

Pshh, this is a win for conservatives. Still no collusion. Recent investigation  leads to Russian indictments, Trump still Tex’s president. Sorry, should have saved that for smack talk forum

[SaltyTiger 7,864]

10 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Investigation was underway. But keep playing the conservative  victim card.

yep....never surfaced.

[homersapien 11,452]

2 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Wrong. An indictment does not indicate there was a crime, but rather it ALLEGES there was a crime. Jury and judge decide if there was a crime. Also, I’m not so sure about the “never shows a card” comment. Its not a gameshow.

You say "alleges", I say "indicates".  

No one has said these indictments are the same as convictions.  But they are very specific with plenty of supporting evidence. This is especially true when foreigners - especially Russians - are the object and there is little chance of a trial.  Typically, the overriding point in such a case is to make a convincing public (political) statement about what happened.

While such indictments aren't convictions, no reasonable person would doubt these crimes occured. 

[TexasTiger 13,026]

2 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Pshh, this is a win for conservatives. Still no collusion. Recent investigation  leads to Russian indictments, Trump still Tex’s president. Sorry, should have saved that for smack talk forum

You should save all your posts for the smack talk forum.

[DKW 86 7,441]

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/Russians-Indicted-US-Election-Meddling-Mueller-474309733.html

Quote

Though some of the defendants communicated with "unwitting individuals associated with the Trump Campaign and with other political activists to seek to coordinate political activities," Rosenstein said that "there is no allegation in this indictment that any American was a knowing participant in this illegal activity.

 

We have known this for months. Really nothing new here. Apparently, 13 Russians may or may not have done something that may have lead to Trump gaining a very few votes. The Russians are not going to honor extradition and are openly predicting more indictments that they consider to be just meaningless blabber. 

HRC still outspent Trump by $500MN. If there was any collusion, Mueller's Team is not showing it in any way and in reality, has said out loud that American involvement in this was low-level and unintentional. Just like members of the DNC have communicated since the beginning. Waters, Feinstein, Jones, et al. have said since early on that this was going nowhere. 

For all you know nothings out there with heads buried in the sand, I am just pointing out what was in the press. Anyone that was paying attention could read the same thing. If you want Trump gone, impeach him for something that is actually provable and actionable. Butthurt, while provable, is not actionable.  HRC ran the worst campaign in history, losing to the worst opponent in history.  She blew $1.2BN and lost. Justice Democrats and TYT are raising a stink with the DNC about how almost half of the $1.2BN went to 5-6 Campaign Advisors. In the details...Trump actually spent about $700MN getting elected. HRC actually only used about $600MN on actual election spending. This is where she lost. 

[homersapien 11,452]

You are such a Trumpster.  

[homersapien 11,452]

Does this look like a "nothing burger" to you

“The conspiracy had as its object impairing, obstructing, and defeating the lawful governmental functions of the United States by dishonest means in order to enable the Defendants to interfere with U.S. political and electoral processes, including the 2016 U.S. presidential election,” the indictment states. There are 16 defendants, including three organizations and 13 individuals, who are charged with conspiracy to defraud the United States by impairing enforcement of election law as well as wire fraud and bank fraud.

The document is the most complete set of allegations offered by the government yet about one subset of Russian interference, going far beyond an intelligence-community report released in early 2017. At its peak, the alleged conspiracy had a budget of more than $1.25 million per month for activities in the U.S. and elsewhere.

The indictment also stands as an implicit rebuke to President Trump, who has repeatedly refused to acknowledge the Russian role in the election, saying many actors may have been involved. He has also rejected the idea that any interference might have aided him. His rejection puts him at odds with the entire American intelligence establishment, which has concluded that Russia interfered. On Tuesday, top officials, many of them Trump appointees, reaffirmed that stance and said Russia would also seek to meddle in the 2018 election.

The allegations contained in this indictment, returned by a federal grand jury in Washington, D.C., do not reach the most politically contentious questions in Mueller’s view. They do not concern the hacking of emails from the Democratic National Committee, Clinton campaign officials, and the Republican National Committee. They don’t address questions of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia; indeed, this indictment states that Russians had some contact with Trump officials, but Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein said Friday that “there is no allegation in this indictment that any American was a knowing participant” in law-breaking. He added, “There is no allegation in the indictment that the charge conduct altered the outcome of the 2016 election.” Neither does this indictment touch on whether Trump obstructed justice.

Nonetheless, the indictment makes it difficult for Trump to continue to claim that Russia did not interfere in the election. It states:

Defendant ORGANIZATION had a strategic goal to sow discord in the U.S. political system, including the 2016 U.S. presidential election. Defendants posted derogatory information about a number of candidates, and by early to mid-2016, Defendants’ operations included supporting the presidential campaign of then-candidate Donald J. Trump (“Trump Campaign”) and disparaging Hillary Clinton.

When the intelligence community has previously leveled that charge in the past, it has offered only vague evidence, basically asking for the benefit of the doubt.That allowed skeptics of the intelligence agencies, as well as Trump and his allies, to cast doubt on the claims. Friday’s indictment contains far more detail, and while its contents are allegations, not claims proven in a court, they are bolstered by extensive documentary evidence, including emails and messages. Much of the material has been reported in various news outlets, but the indictment puts it all in one place for the first time.

Here’s what the indictment lays out.

The Russian effort to meddle in the election began way back in 2014, long before anyone viewed Trump as a serious candidate for the presidency, much less a likely nominee. The goal was simply to create division and chaos by exploiting existing cleavages in American society—or as the indictment puts it, operators were instructed to create “political intensity through supporting radical groups, users dissatisfied with [the] social and economic situation and oppositional social movements.”

The work was coordinated through the Internet Research Agency, a group that came to widespread American attention in summer of 2015, when Adrian Chen wrote a long feature on it for The New York Times Magazine. The IRA is a private company, not a government agency, but as Chen laid out, it has close ties to the Kremlin. The indictment explains that the IRA in turn was controlled by Concord Management and Consulting and Concord Catering, “related Russian entities with various Russian government contracts.” Concord hired the IRA for “Project Lakhta,” a wide-ranging project that involved work in Russia and overseas.

The IRA and its officers began tracking U.S. social currents in 2014. That year, two of the defendants named in the indictment traveled to the United States for scouting purposes. The indictment describes measures that would seem cartoonish if not for what would follow. The travelers claimed they were visiting for personal reasons, but bought special equipment and discussed “evacuation scenarios” for the trip. In June, two of the defendants covered a great deal of ground, going to Nevada, California, New Mexico, Colorado, Illinois, Michigan, Louisiana, Texas, and New York. In November of 2014, a third defendant visited Atlanta.

Read the rest of the article at: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/mueller-roadmap/553604/

 

[DKW 86 7,441]

Quote

The indictment, brought by a federal grand jury in the District of Columbia on Friday, states that "from in or around 2014 to the present, defendant knowingly and intentionally conspired with each other (and with persons known and unknown to the Grand Jury) to defraud the United States ... for the purpose of interfering with the U.S. political and electoral processes, including the presidential election of 2016."

So Trump et al were involved in 2014??? Really? 

[homersapien 11,452]

And just for DKW, the indictments also disclose:

On the one hand, the indictment does not charge any Trump campaign officials with wrongdoing, and specifically calls any interaction with Russians in these specific activities unwitting. It also notes the ways in which the Russians organized to hurt him, as in the November 2016 New York rally. Yet so far Trump has refused to even acknowledge any Russian effort to aid him, apparently concerned that doing so undermines the legitimacy of his victory.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/mueller-roadmap/553604/

 

Of course no one has suggested otherwise to begin with.

[homersapien 11,452]

9 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

So trump ety all were involved in 2014??? Really? 

Who suggested that on this forum? 

No one.   It's a stupid, irrelevant response to a claim no one has made.

It's something you keep bringing up as if it absolves Trump from duty to do something about "the Russian thing".  Of course, he doesn't want to admit it might have helped him get elected.  He would rather ignore a blatant attack on the US political system because of how it might reflect on his legitimacy. 

Likewise you are desperate that Trump's legitimacy not be threatened, so you keep harping on what's not there instead of what is.

[DKW 86 7,441]

13 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Does this look like a "nothing burger" to you

“The conspiracy had as its object impairing, obstructing, and defeating the lawful governmental functions of the United States by dishonest means in order to enable the Defendants to interfere with U.S. political and electoral processes, including the 2016 U.S. presidential election,” the indictment states. There are 16 defendants, including three organizations and 13 individuals, who are charged with conspiracy to defraud the United States by impairing enforcement of election law as well as wire fraud and bank fraud.

The document is the most complete set of allegations offered by the government yet about one subset of Russian interference, going far beyond an intelligence-community report released in early 2017. At its peak, the alleged conspiracy had a budget of more than $1.25 million per month for activities in the U.S. and elsewhere.

Okay lets look at this: 2014-2015-2016 is 36 months. 36X1.25M=$45M This is the most gross OVER ESTIMATION I COULD DREAM UP...HRC out spent Trump by $500MN Does any rational person think they made a dent into her camapaign?  If it was just 18 months of the actual campaign season, it falls to $22.5MN versus $500MN. And still the documentation says that no American was aware of it.

The indictment also stands as an implicit rebuke to President Trump, who has repeatedly refused to acknowledge the Russian role in the election, saying many actors may have been involved. He has also rejected the idea that any interference might have aided him. His rejection puts him at odds with the entire American intelligence establishment, which has concluded that Russia interfered. On Tuesday, top officials, many of them Trump appointees, reaffirmed that stance and said Russia would also seek to meddle in the 2018 election.

The allegations contained in this indictment, returned by a federal grand jury in Washington, D.C., do not reach the most politically contentious questions in Mueller’s view. They do not concern the hacking of emails from the Democratic National Committee, Clinton campaign officials, and the Republican National Committee. They don’t address questions of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia; indeed, this indictment states that Russians had some contact with Trump officials, but Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein said Friday that “there is no allegation in this indictment that any American was a knowing participant” in law-breaking. He added, “There is no allegation in the indictment that the charge conduct altered the outcome of the 2016 election.”

Like Van Jones et al have said for some time now: SO FAR NOTHING BURGER

Read the rest of the article at: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/mueller-roadmap/553604/

 

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