Question to everyone...

[Tiger Al 0]

Here's another question to ponder.

In High School, I was in the school choir.  For concerts, we would sing religious pieces.  Why?  Because they were difficult, complex arrangements of historically relevent art.  Music was kept alive through the church.

So, to deny the students (us at that time) the exposure to such complex art, would be a disservice to the class.  However, to sing these in a public forum would violate the PC "separation of church and state."

Alos, we would end each concert with...

May the road rise to meet you.

May the wind be always at your back.

May the sun shine warm upon your face,

May the rain fall soft upon your feet.

And until we meet again

May GOD Hold you

In the hollow of his hand.

Should my school be shut down for hurting someone's feelings?  Should the government step in and force their hand upon this class?  Where is the dividing line for government in such a case? 

Any act against the school can be viewed as a tyranical dictator's harsh rule.  (Similar to what Facist regimes)

No consequences for the school, implies an act of establishing religion in school.

Where do you stand on government's role?

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Rainman, what does the law say about these things you bring up? Do you know or are you just throwing things out that have religious connotations and assuming that they are not acceptable? Unfortunately, this isn't a simple issue where there is a simple test to decide what is acceptable and what isn't. You can't just say, "There is a mention of God so the PC police won't let us do it." Know the FACTS, not just the PASSION.

From Florey v. Sioux Falls School District:

“It is accepted that no religious belief or nonbelief should be promoted by the school district or its employees, and none should be disparaged. Instead, the school district should encourage all students and staff members to appreciate and be tolerant of each other’s religious views ... . In that spirit of tolerance, students and staff members should be excused from participating in practices which are contrary to their religious beliefs unless there are clear issues of overriding concern that would prevent it.

“The Sioux Falls School District recognizes that one of its educational goals is to advance the students’ knowledge and appreciation of the role that our religious heritage has played in the social, cultural and historical development of civilization … .

“The practice of the District shall be as follows:

“1. The several holidays throughout the year which have a religious and a secular basis may be observed in the public schools. 2. The historical and contemporary values and the origin of religious holidays may be explained in an unbiased and objective manner without sectarian indoctrination. 3. Music, art, literature and drama having religious themes or bases are permitted as part of the curriculum for school-sponsored activities and programs if presented in a prudent and objective manner and as a traditional part of the cultural and religious heritage of the particular holiday. 4. The use of religious symbols such as a cross, menorah, crescent, Star of David, creche, symbols of Native American religions or other symbols that are a part of a religious holiday is permitted as a teaching aid or resource, provided such symbols are temporary in nature. Among these holidays are included Christmas, Easter, Passover, Hanukkah, St. Valentine’s Day, St. Patrick’s Day, Thanksgiving and Halloween. 5. The school district’s calendar should be prepared so as to minimize conflicts with religious holidays of all faiths.”

[Tiger Al 0]

I knew we kinda sorta had this discussion before:  Link to Dec 2003 topic 

My viewpoints haven't changed from then.  I see a conflict with the current draconian government response to any kind of display of religious symbols in public buildings:  a teacher can't wear a cross around her neck(Yes, she can) and answer truthfully why, a Bible study group can't meet on school grounds after school like any other club or organized group(They probably can under the Equal Access Act) , a valedictorian has her speech previewed by school administrators to remove any mention of God (It would probably depend on what she says) , kindergarteners are prohibited from singing secular Christmas carols in their "Winter Festival" concert. (This is allowed)  All of these are restrictions imposed by the government. (Not our government) Why?  Aren't these restrictions also contrary to the 1st Amendment in terms of both free speech & freedom to worship? 

I am for maintaing the separation of Church and State.  I do not want our federal government imposing a religion on anybody -- ever.  At the same time, I can't see how the government can be guilty of imposing a religion on someone if a group of 5-year olds sing, "Joy to the World, the Lord has come" in December within the confines of a public school building (They can) .  Yo. (Adrian) That's a leap of imagination to think that in any way represents Congress passing a law establishing a religion.  This kind of logic escapes me. 

I spent some time in a true theocracy once, Saudi Arabia from Dec 90 to Mar 91.  Our country is no theocracy and we are in no danger of ever becoming one.  It's not even close. (And with a hearty defense of church/state separation we should remain that way!)

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[Tiger Al 0]

Should public schools lead classes in prayers or have Bible study as part of the curriculum?

[Tigermike 3,042]

Should public schools lead classes in prayers or have Bible study as part of the curriculum?

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To be precise Al, schools can't lead and pray, only teachers can.

Should public schools have "Muslim Day", where all students are required to dress (as well as they can) like Muslims? The curriculum for the day is Muslim studies? Study the Koran for a day or a week or semester?

[Tiger Al 0]

Should public schools lead classes in prayers or have Bible study as part of the curriculum?

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To be precise Al, schools can't lead and pray, only teachers can.

157839[/snapback]

You are quite the precise one, Tigermike. Thanks for clearing that up.

Should public schools have "Muslim Day", where all students are required to dress (as well as they can) like Muslims?

No, I don't think they should be required to and I think it might be illegal to require them to. Do you?

The curriculum for the day is Muslim studies?  Study the Koran for a day or a week or semester?

They are allowed to teach about religions, not just Islam. To require studying the religions, like one would study Christianity in Sunday school, for example, probably wouldn't and, in my opinion, shouldn't. How do you feel about that?

[WarTim 3,456]

I expect the school system(teachers) to teach reading-writing-math-history(what happened, not what liberals wish had happened).

I will and have taught my children what they need to know about religion and politics.(They are both Christians and Conservatives.)

Alas, this does not fit in with the liberals desire to rewrite history and teach children to be good democratic voters.

[Tiger Al 0]

I expect the school system(teachers) to teach reading-writing-math-history.

I will and have taught my children what they need to know about religion and politics.(They are both Christians and Conservatives.) 

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You and I are in full agreement in principle. There's a first.

[Tigermike 3,042]

The curriculum for the day is Muslim studies?  Study the Koran for a day or a week or semester?

They are allowed to teach about religions, not just Islam. To require studying the religions, like one would study Christianity in Sunday school, for example, probably wouldn't and, in my opinion, shouldn't. How do you feel about that?

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I know it's hard for you to imagine, but I can still remember grade school.

I can remember starting the day with a prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance. None of those prayers were said like in Sunday school. I can't remember ever starting the day in high school with a prayer. Except of course on test day.

I can remember prayers at sporting events and prayers at graduation. But alas, those have run afoul of the ACLU. Do you believe the minority (not racial) should rule over the majority? Isn't that what the atheists & ACLU are doing through the courts when they haven't a prayer (pun intended) of getting their agenda passed at the ballot box?