The Bible and Abortion

[homersapien 11,401]

1 hour ago, abw0004 said:

As many facepalms as he does daily, he/she has to have at least one black eye by now.

And if someone "laughed" at as many non-humorous posts as 78, they'd carry him off in a straight jacket.

[Hank2020 3,212]

On 6/16/2021 at 11:18 PM, jj3jordan said:

Jeremiah 1:5 says: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you.

Luke 1:41 says: When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leapt in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

Mary was pregnant with Jesus and Elizabeth was pregnant with John the Baptist.  The implication is that what is in the womb is alive and not just a clump of cells. John recognized Jesus each from His mother's womb.  To me this is a clear directive to preserve a baby in the womb.

God knew Jeremiah in the womb. 

While abortion did not exist as we know it back then, it appears to me that God is strongly pro life.

 

Pro choice is a misnomer. The child has no choice.  Pretty sure the baby would choose to live if given the opportunity. 

 

Not sure we know it didn’t exist, we are sure it is not mentioned. It would greatly surprise me if it didn’t exist.

[TexasTiger 12,969]

On 6/16/2021 at 10:18 PM, jj3jordan said:

Jeremiah 1:5 says: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you.

Luke 1:41 says: When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leapt in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

Mary was pregnant with Jesus and Elizabeth was pregnant with John the Baptist.  The implication is that what is in the womb is alive and not just a clump of cells. John recognized Jesus each from His mother's womb.  To me this is a clear directive to preserve a baby in the womb.

God knew Jeremiah in the womb. 

While abortion did not exist as we know it back then, it appears to me that God is strongly pro life.

 

Pro choice is a misnomer. The child has no choice.  Pretty sure the baby would choose to live if given the opportunity. 

 

Do you believe God killed the first born children of Egypt?

[jj3jordan 2,056]

10 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Do you believe God killed the first born children of Egypt?

Yes. As covered in Exodus as punishment for not letting the Children of Israel go. 

[TexasTiger 12,969]

Just now, jj3jordan said:

Yes. As covered in Exodus as punishment for not letting the Children of Israel go. 

So God killed innocent children? Hundreds? Thousands?

[jj3jordan 2,056]

4 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

So God killed innocent children? Hundreds? Thousands?

Not sure of the count.  God brought judgement on Egypt. This was His method. He will do the same to us when we occupy the judgement seat. The results will be the same unless we have Jesus. Don’t try to frame God’s version of righteousness within the confines of your brain. His ways are not our ways.

[aubearcat 2,138]

10 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

So God killed innocent children? Hundreds? Thousands?

I hate going down these rabbit holes but off I go. The firstborn of every creature died because of Pharaoh’s hard hearted ness and refusal to allow the Hebrews to leave the bondages of slavery. Pharaoh actually brought the plague upon the land, by his own proclamation, when he failed to relent after the previous plagues that Moses had wrought at the direction of God. 
To avoid death, those that had the blood of a lamb on the lentil of their door were saved hence Passover. This is also a fantastic precursor to Easter. We are stuck in the bondage of sin through our own hard heartedness and without the blood of the Lamb, (Jesus) death will surely come because of sin. But I suppose to answer your question, people died regardless of age (first born of every creature whether a day old or a hundred years old) because of a plague that was allowed to happen so that Pharaoh would finally relent and know that God is God. However, to compare this to abortion is a huge stretch that can’t come close to being made. 

[Grumps 3,704]

On 6/17/2021 at 9:16 AM, TexasTiger said:

Did you read it?

Yes. At least one of us doesn't understand it very well.

[TexasTiger 12,969]

7 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Not sure of the count.  God brought judgement on Egypt. This was His method. He will do the same to us when we occupy the judgement seat. The results will be the same unless we have Jesus. Don’t try to frame God’s version of righteousness within the confines of your brain. His ways are not our ways.

It wasn’t a pro-life method, though— was it? And it was a broad, sweeping judgment to show one stubborn person God’s power, right? It was random, arbitrary violence against innocents— isn’t that how many tend to frame the abortion issue? In fact, isn’t that one of the stronger arguments?

[aubearcat 2,138]

God is the author of life and has the authority to determine it’s beginning and end. We as humans are caretakers of life and do not have the authority to determine when it should end. We also don’t have the ability to discern God’s designs on life but all things in Heaven and on earth will be revealed in the afterlife and then we will know and understand. 

[TexasTiger 12,969]

21 minutes ago, aubearcat said:

God is the author of life and has the authority to determine it’s beginning and end. We as humans are caretakers of life and do not have the authority to determine when it should end. We also don’t have the ability to discern God’s designs on life but all things in Heaven and on earth will be revealed in the afterlife and then we will know and understand. 

Okay. He’s the boss. But he designed us to see and understand and choose according to to values and priorities we ultimately choose. He designed us in his own image.
 

He can choose his methods of teaching and exerting power consistent with his values and priorities. In this case, if the Biblical story is to be believed, he chose mass death to innocents to move a single person to act. Hard to imagine a more extreme and violent method. It’s a method at odds with Christ’s teachings. Folks who consider the Bible an infallible, literally true document have quite a bit of reconciling to do.

[aubearcat 2,138]

43 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Okay. He’s the boss. But he designed us to see and understand and choose according to to values and priorities we ultimately choose. He designed us in his own image.
 

He can choose his methods of teaching and exerting power consistent with his values and priorities. In this case, if the Biblical story is to be believed, he chose mass death to innocents to move a single person to act. Hard to imagine a more extreme and violent method. It’s a method at odds with Christ’s teachings. Folks who consider the Bible an infallible, literally true document have quite a bit of reconciling to do.

I’m not Sola Scriptura. I do believe God has the primacy to do as he wills. We don’t know why God wills or allows certain things to happen ( bad things happen to good people and like wise good things happening for seemingly bad people) but we will understand everything in eternity. Jesus’ message did mirror the Passover/Exodus message. He was the Innocent of Innocents and submitted himself to the most violent of punishments and deaths at that time. He taught that if people will repent, change their lives, and believe they will live for all eternity. Moses, an Old Testament prefiguring of Christ, begged Pharaoh to relent which he refused, and it took the Passover for the freeing of the Hebrews just as it took Jesus’ death to free us from the eternal punishment due to persistence of sin. 

[TexasTiger 12,969]

8 minutes ago, aubearcat said:

I’m not Sola Scriptura. I do believe God has the primacy to do as he wills. We don’t know why God wills or allows certain things to happen ( bad things happen to good people and like wise good things happening for seemingly bad people) but we will understand everything in eternity. Jesus’ message did mirror the Passover/Exodus message. He was the Innocent of Innocents and submitted himself to the most violent of punishments and deaths at that time. He taught that if people will repent, change their lives, and believe they will live for all eternity. Moses, an Old Testament prefiguring of Christ, begged Pharaoh to relent which he refused, and it took the Passover for the freeing of the Hebrews just as it took Jesus’ death to free us from the eternal punishment due to persistence of sin. 

And yet, according to the story God killed numerous innocent children. You can fit that into a larger picture thematically, although Christ made a choice as an innocent so the analogy fails, but the cold hard reality was the brutal death of innocents at the hands of God. This was not God just allowing bad things to happen. He was the perpetrator  in this account. I think this is wildly inconsistent with Christ’s message which, for me, is primary.

[AU9377 5,001]

3 minutes ago, aubearcat said:

I’m not Sola Scriptura. I do believe God has the primacy to do as he wills. We don’t know why God wills or allows certain things to happen ( bad things happen to good people and like wise good things happening for seemingly bad people) but we will understand everything in eternity. Jesus’ message did mirror the Passover/Exodus message. He was the Innocent of Innocents and submitted himself to the most violent of punishments and deaths at that time. He taught that if people will repent, change their lives, and believe they will live for all eternity. Moses, an Old Testament prefiguring of Christ, begged Pharaoh to relent which he refused, and it took the Passover for the freeing of the Hebrews just as it took Jesus’ death to free us from the eternal punishment due to persistence of sin. 

In my opinion, many of the writings in the Old Testament include stories translated for relevance at the time of their translation. I think it is fair to assume that many passages have been impacted by the need of the men writing them to establish and maintain their status as elite conveyors of the will of God.  In other words, it was necessary to embellish events in order to form narratives thru which they could frighten people and increase the power of the church. In so doing, their power and wealth was increased.  After all, challenging a priest was the equivalent of challenging the will of God.  This allowed them to punish people in the name of the Church and demand payments in the name of the church.  I believe that there is truth in the majority of these narratives, but that the truth has been saddled with the self serving words of men for centuries.

[homersapien 11,401]

Fundamentalists - those who believe in the literal truth of the bible - scare the hell out of me.  They are agents of our extinction.

God - assuming something that accords with the concept of God actually exists - is not going to save us.  Our destiny as a species is totally in our own hands.

Edited June 20, 2021 by homersapien

[aubearcat 2,138]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

Christ’s message which, for me, is primary.

Christ is God (fully divine and fully human at the same time). He stated he didn’t come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. His message is  Believe in him (nobody comes to the Father except through Him) love, mercy, repent, and sin no more.  Commandant 6 the question of abortion, death penalty…etc Jesus also claimed murder didn’t just take place in the act itself but in also wishing death on someone (in the heart/desires). Again, I’m not going to question God’s methods in bringing about salvation to include the Passover/Exodus. 

[TexasTiger 12,969]

2 minutes ago, aubearcat said:

Christ is God (fully divine and fully human at the same time). He stated he didn’t come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. His message is  Believe in him (nobody comes to the Father except through Him) love, mercy, repent, and sin no more.  Commandant 6 the question of abortion, death penalty…etc Jesus also claimed murder didn’t just take place in the act itself but in also wishing death on someone (in the heart/desires). Again, I’m not going to question God’s methods in bringing about salvation to include the Passover/Exodus. 

I don’t know anyone who “sins no more.”

[aubearcat 2,138]

30 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I don’t know anyone who “sins no more.”

Nothing, that’s why the mercy of Christ is essential. That’s why Christ instituted the Sacrament of Reconciliation. 

[Grumps 3,704]

4 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

And yet, according to the story God killed numerous innocent children. You can fit that into a larger picture thematically, although Christ made a choice as an innocent so the analogy fails, but the cold hard reality was the brutal death of innocents at the hands of God. This was not God just allowing bad things to happen. He was the perpetrator  in this account. I think this is wildly inconsistent with Christ’s message which, for me, is primary.

How do you determine what Jesus' message is?

Are you claiming to believe what Jesus is reported to have said in the Gospels?

Is there a such thing as an innocent child?

Random question: If you created a human from scratch would they have any rights?

 

[jj3jordan 2,056]

8 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

It wasn’t a pro-life method, though— was it? And it was a broad, sweeping judgment to show one stubborn person God’s power, right? It was random, arbitrary violence against innocents— isn’t that how many tend to frame the abortion issue? In fact, isn’t that one of the stronger arguments?

That’s be a stretch to conflate God’s judgement on Egypt with a mother choosing to murder her and another persons baby.  But if you wish, you could say that Pharoah had a choice, numerous times to comply with the request. He chose to defy God and paid the price.  The baby to be murdered however never gets asked the question.  As I have said before pro abortion/choice people like yourself have already been born. Now you have the gall to legalize the murder of a truly innocent baby denying that baby the privilege you have of already being born.  Pretty sure I know which way the baby would vote. But even if it’s not 100% life, doesn’t the baby deserve the chance to live? Sounds like you have a bone to pick with God.  It would be a good idea to resolve that issue.

[jj3jordan 2,056]

4 hours ago, homersapien said:

Fundamentalists - those who believe in the literal truth of the bible - scare the hell out of me.  They are agents of our extinction.

God - assuming something that accords with the concept of God actually exists - is not going to save us.  Our destiny as a species is totally in our own hands.

Why would someone who believes the Bible scare you? 

[CoffeeTiger 5,145]

 

18 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

That’s be a stretch to conflate God’s judgement on Egypt with a mother choosing to murder her and another persons baby.  But if you wish, you could say that Pharoah had a choice, numerous times to comply with the request. He chose to defy God and paid the price.

Everybody in Egypt paid the price for Pharaohs decision. That was a lot of pain, suffering, and death for the decision that one man made. Nobody else who suffered during the plague got to make a choice for themselves, their lives, or their families/children. 

Similar to how Adam and Eve's lone sin caused the future suffering for untold billions of people to come after them. 

 

I don't understand why God granting humans "free will and choice" is considered to be a good thing when at the same time God dictates that only one choice and direction in life is acceptable to him and will lead to eternal happiness while every other possible path will lead to eternal damnation and suffering. 

 

If God was going to require that humans worship him and follow his book of laws, would it not have been better for everyone if he had just denied humans the ability to turn away from him and his will to begin with? 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by CoffeeTiger

[TexasTiger 12,969]

19 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

That’s be a stretch to conflate God’s judgement on Egypt with a mother choosing to murder her and another persons baby.  But if you wish, you could say that Pharoah had a choice, numerous times to comply with the request. He chose to defy God and paid the price.  The baby to be murdered however never gets asked the question.  As I have said before pro abortion/choice people like yourself have already been born. Now you have the gall to legalize the murder of a truly innocent baby denying that baby the privilege you have of already being born.  Pretty sure I know which way the baby would vote. But even if it’s not 100% life, doesn’t the baby deserve the chance to live? Sounds like you have a bone to pick with God.  It would be a good idea to resolve that issue.

You’re making a ton of assumptions about me. First, I’m not conflating those two things. Second, I believe too many liberals minimize the moral issues around abortion. Third, I also think it’s a very complex and difficult moral issue to address thru legislation. I wish more Christians were more committed to saving souls than they are passing man’s laws.
 

But folks here are claiming God was obviously consistently pro-life in the Bible. That’s not true. This is one such glaring example. Saying God doesn’t need to justify his killing doesn’t change the facts of the story. That doesn’t mean one needs to change their view on abortion, but if your view rests on false premises, examine and strengthen your argument. 

[jj3jordan 2,056]

6 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

Everybody in Egypt paid the price for Pharaohs decision. That was a lot of pain, suffering, and death for the decision that one man made. Nobody else who suffered during the plague got to make a choice for themselves, their lives, or their families/children. 

Similar to how Adam and Eve's lone sin caused the future suffering for untold billions of people to come after them. 

 

I don't understand why God granting humans "free will and choice" is considered to be a good thing when at the same time God dictates that only one choice and direction in life is acceptable to him and will lead to eternal happiness while every other possible path will lead to eternal damnation and suffering. 

 

If God was going to require that humans worship him and follow his book of laws, would it not have been better for everyone if he had just denied humans the ability to turn away from him and his will to begin with? 

 

 

You want to ask God why he does things? Ask Him. He will answer you.  I don’t second guess God.  Get on your knees, confess your sin to God, and ask Him any question you want.  

[jj3jordan 2,056]

5 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

You’re making a ton of assumptions about me. First, I’m not conflating those two things. Second, I believe too many liberals minimize the moral issues around abortion. Third, I also think it’s a very complex and difficult moral issue to address thru legislation. I wish more Christians were more committed to saving souls than they are passing man’s laws.
 

But folks here are claiming God was obviously consistently pro-life in the Bible. That’s not true. This is one such glaring example. Saying God doesn’t need to justify his killing doesn’t change the facts of the story. That doesn’t mean one needs to change their view on abortion, but if your view rests on false premises, examine and strengthen your argument. 

Justice for rejecting God is not the same as murdering a helpless innocent baby in the womb.  As far as Christians attempting to save souls, it does occur probably more than you know. However for many decades now, liberals and Democrats have systematically outlawed God, Jesus, and Christians evangelizing from all public places, events, meetings, schools, and yes, even the public sidewalk outside an abortion clinic or planned parenthood abortion center.  Maybe that’s what you miss. Don’t accuse Christians of failing to save souls when you and your liberal cohorts have made it illegal in so many places.