Time for vaccine requirements, tests for football games

[homersapien 11,392]

13 hours ago, TigerTale said:

This is where you and I differ. You're willing to dismiss the media's blatant dishonesty as the exception and go on believing.

 

“If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed.” - Mark Twain

Guess we're screwed either way.

So you are saying that all of the reporting about peaceful demonstrations all over the country were lies? 

All of the reporting compiling the information on thousands of demonstrations were lies?

Edited August 15, 2021 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,392]

15 hours ago, bigbird said:

Again, of course it came from one that was unvaccinated. The virus hit before the vaccine. This isn't a chicken and an egg situation. In this case, we know the chicken started it. That's not being debated, by anyone.

My point is that vaccinated people didn't create - and are not sustaining - the current resurgence despite "breakthrough" infections.

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by homersapien

[AU9377 4,977]

2 hours ago, Eagle-1 said:

 

 

Truth is this is not a vaccine by definition at all. Secondly, are you now alluding to the fact that we can trust the numbers put out by the media, or the CDC on the number of Covid deaths? It's already a proven fact that those numbers have been greatly falsified. Aren't these the same people essentially that told you the virus originated from a bat in a seafood market? If you believed that one we probably shouldn't be having a conversation at all. 

In a previous post you attempted to discredit the molecular biologist's information I shared because she mentioned hydroxychloroquine, alluding to the idea that the side effects may be too dangerous. Well, same can be said for this so called vaccine. A 19 year old, fully healthy young lady just died a few days ago from a blood clot in the brain caused by the vax. I also know someone personally who died after receiving the shot, and at least three more who have had serious complications as a result. 

Everyone has to do what they believe is best for themselves I would say. I have friends, and a daughter who have had the vax, and I have many friends, and the rest of my family, including my 85 year old Father who refuse. If the topic of the thread is requiring vaccinations to attend a football game then that's an easy decision for me personally. There are many things I can actually do without, and I certainly won't let the attendence at a football game affect my decision regarding my health. Actually, the vax decision has been an easy one for me, because I'm self employed, and generally an anti social ass anyway.  

This is, by definition, a vaccine.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vaccine

There have been 3, THREE, people to die due to the Covid-19 vaccine and any side effect caused like you mention in the United States and none reported in Europe.  Those 3 deaths resulted from blood clots after receiving the J&J vaccine. This is according to the CDC and Georgia Dept of Public Health.  To compare, getting COVID-19 while unvaccinated poses a grave risk; as of July 23, 2021, more than 610,000 deaths have been attributed to the virus in the US alone.  Again, there have been no deaths, zero, caused by the mRNA vaccines.  Have people received the vaccine and died within a few days?  Sure.  People have also gotten vaccinated and then died in a car wreck on the way home, but that doesn't mean that the vaccine caused the accident.  It would be hard to believe if I didn't see it with my own eyes and hear it every day.  People see the number of Covid deaths and the number of vaccine deaths and then decide that they will go with the path that has seen over 610,000 people die instead of the path that has led to no deaths or three.

[AU9377 4,977]

14 hours ago, TigerTale said:

This is where you and I differ. You're willing to dismiss the media's blatant dishonesty as the exception and go on believing.

 

“If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed.” - Mark Twain

Guess we're screwed either way.

The problem is that some people dismiss everything.  There is no need to dismiss data that is sourced.  The CDC, for example, has not been perfect by any means in the way they have handled this virus, but that doesn't mean that their data is faulty in any way.  Therefore, when a media outlet, meaning a respected publication or news organization, reports their data, there is no reason to be skeptical of that report.  A huge problem is the number of people that get their news from Youtube and Facebook.

[AU9377 4,977]

5 hours ago, AU-24 said:

I think he is referring to the media not minding antifa or BLM rally’s. But any other large gatherings are considered super spreaders.

Somehow BLM and antifa rallies, where they’re burning cities down, are considered peaceful protest, and there never considered super spreaders. (to the media) I believe that’s what he is talking about.

I understand.. I just believe that argument is used more as a red herring, a distraction, than anything else.  I have no problem with people being critical of most large gatherings, especially those that took place prior to the vaccine being widely available.  I also don't have a problem with anyone choosing to attend an event if they so choose.  My concern is that people look at real facts when considering the vaccine.  If they do that, there is no other conclusion to be made other than to get vaccinated.

[TigerTale 357]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

So you are saying that all of the reporting about peaceful demonstrations all over the country were lies? 

All of the reporting compiling the information on thousands of demonstrations were lies?

Of sourse not. Just calling put the lies that were obvious and wondering how many others we were told that were not obvious.

[Eagle-1 3,821]

41 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

This is, by definition, a vaccine.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vaccine

There have been 3, THREE, people to die due to the Covid-19 vaccine and any side effect caused like you mention in the United States and none reported in Europe.  Those 3 deaths resulted from blood clots after receiving the J&J vaccine. This is according to the CDC and Georgia Dept of Public Health.  To compare, getting COVID-19 while unvaccinated poses a grave risk; as of July 23, 2021, more than 610,000 deaths have been attributed to the virus in the US alone.  Again, there have been no deaths, zero, caused by the mRNA vaccines.  Have people received the vaccine and died within a few days?  Sure.  People have also gotten vaccinated and then died in a car wreck on the way home, but that doesn't mean that the vaccine caused the accident.  It would be hard to believe if I didn't see it with my own eyes and hear it every day.  People see the number of Covid deaths and the number of vaccine deaths and then decide that they will go with the path that has seen over 610,000 people die instead of the path that has led to no deaths or three.

Girl died in Spain just this past week.

Covid related death rates have been manipulated since all this began. That is a proven fact, and I would be a naive fool if I did not believe vaccine related deaths, and severe complications have been grossly underreported. As I stated previously, I'm no social butterfly, and I personally know people who have had serious issues, or have died. 

You have a right to your opinion, as I have mine. The only time we have a problem is when people try to force, or mandate theirs on me. 

When they come up with a vaccine that makes me immune, or better yet, one in which they have enough confidence in that they don't make a Mickey Mouse deal with the government absolving them of future liability, then we can have a different discussion.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Eagle-1

[bigbird 60,569]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

My point is that vaccinated people didn't create - and are not sustaining - the current resurgence despite "breakthrough" infections.

 

An it's my contention that an infected vaccinated person that is asymptomatic is just as likely to pass the virus, although the incubation period before they are capable of spreading it is longer. Once they have the sufficient viral load they are equally culpable of the spread

[AU9377 4,977]

38 minutes ago, Eagle-1 said:

Girl died in Spain just this past week.

Covid related death rates have been manipulated since all this began. That is a proven fact, and I would be a naive fool if I did not believe vaccine related deaths, and severe complications have been grossly underreported. As I stated previously, I'm no social butterfly, and I personally know people who have had serious issues, or have died. 

You have a right to your opinion, as I have mine. The only time we have a problem is when people try to force, or mandate theirs on me. 

When they come up with a vaccine that makes me immune, or better yet, one in which they have enough confidence in that they don't make a Mickey Mouse deal with the government absolving them of future liability, then we can have a different discussion.

I'll just put it this way.   I know several people that work a the CDC.  I have seen them get calls for years and have to drop everything and jump on a plane to places around the world to document and help local medical teams and governments get control over everything from Ebola to reactions to chemical spills.  They would be the first to tell you that the CDC response was a fumbling mess when this all began.  That said, they have no motivation whatsoever to misrepresent the facts as they know them to be.  They report numbers that are reported to them based on strict guidelines.  They confirm what they document and report. 

The U.S. and European nations asked the top scientists in the world to pause what they were working on and attempt to solve this problem so that we could save as many lives as possible.  That is what they did. Unfortunately, many people want to be able to take something that magically makes it all go away or they consider the effort a failed one.  That isn't how any vaccine has ever worked.  Good luck with whatever decision you make.  I simply get frustrated by the number of good people that have been led into making what I believe is a bad decision due to the politics involved more than the actual science itself.

COVID-19 Among Fully
Vaccinated People in Georgia
From January 01 –August 10, 2021
Of fully vaccinated people:
• 13,332 tested positive (0.003)
• 198 hospitalized* for COVID-19 (0.00004)
• 105 died due to COVID-19 (0.00002)

Compare the above factual data from the Ga Dept of Public Health to the number of deaths overall from Covid-19 during that period or hospitalizations and the difference is clear.  To place into perspective, Georgia had 45 deaths from Covid-19 yesterday alone and has had over 18,000 confirmed deaths from Covid-19.

Edited August 15, 2021 by AU9377

[homersapien 11,392]

1 hour ago, bigbird said:

An it's my contention that an infected vaccinated person that is asymptomatic is just as likely to pass the virus, although the incubation period before they are capable of spreading it is longer. Once they have the sufficient viral load they are equally culpable of the spread

Certainly not as a class. 

There aren't nearly enough "breakthrough" infections to make them "equally" culpable for the current resurgence.

We also know that previously vaccinated people who become infected are less likely to transmit the virus compared to unvaccinated people.  The viral loads are typically smaller and decline more quickly (at least for the original variants of covid.)

https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-breakthrough-infection-transmission

 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,392]

1 hour ago, TigerTale said:

Of sourse not. Just calling put the lies that were obvious and wondering how many others we were told that were not obvious.

Certainly not enough to refute the fact that, by far, most of the BLM demonstrations were peaceful.

Edited August 15, 2021 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,392]

On 8/15/2021 at 10:47 AM, Eagle-1 said:

When they come up with a vaccine that makes me immune, or better yet, one in which they have enough confidence in that they don't make a Mickey Mouse deal with the government absolving them of future liability, then we can have a different discussion.

A vaccine that makes you "immune" is an unrealistic standard.

Here's an interesting article discussing vaccine efficacy:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/health/breakthrough-infection-covid-vaccine-misleading/index.html

What's in a name? The term 'breakthrough infection' raises doubts about vaccines, but it shouldn't

By Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN Chief Medical Correspondent

excerpt:

In most cases, a "breakthrough" means a sudden, dramatic or important discovery. With Covid-19, however, the expression has been used to describe an infection that "broke" through the protective immunity of the vaccine -- and this is sometimes misinterpreted as a sign the vaccine is not working.

For the public health community and the scientists who helped create the vaccines, however, "breakthrough infection" signifies just the opposite: proof the vaccine is doing its job, just as it should.

 

For the public health community and the scientists who helped create the vaccines, however, "breakthrough infection" signifies just the opposite: proof the vaccine is doing its job, just as it should.

 

It is confusing: How well do the vaccines really work and what does it mean if someone still becomes infected after being vaccinated?

 

First, let's take a look at the data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was analyzed by CNN's health team. More than 164 million people in the United States were fully vaccinated against Covid-19 as of early August. Our analysis of the agency's data found fewer than 0.001% of those individuals -- 1,507 people -- died and fewer than 0.005% -- 7,101 people -- were reported to the CDC as having been hospitalized with Covid-19. Reporting to the CDC is not mandatory, but 49 states do contribute to these totals, which means the CDC views these numbers as a useful snapshot of how well the vaccine is working. The data suggest that more than 99.99% of fully vaccinated people have not had a breakthrough case of Covid-19 resulting in hospitalization or death......

 

I soon learned that there are other scientists who don't like the phrase "breakthrough infection" either.

 

"I hate it because it emphasizes something that a lot of [other] vaccines, we know, do," said Dr. Carlos Del Rio, distinguished professor of medicine in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Emory University School of Medicine. "We don't talk about flu cases and say we have 'breakthrough' infections, we talked about the efficacy. ... I think breakthrough has become a term that is equated with lack of efficacy."

 

Del Rio noted that the vaccines were specifically designed to protect against severe disease and death, and that's what those big vaccine trials looked for. "Infection was never an end-point in these studies," he said.

 

That the vaccines were later found to prevent infection, he said "was a little bit ... like the cherry on the cake."

 

 

 

(BTW, Whatever liability deals were made with the manufacturers have nothing to do with the actual results with the vaccines, which we now know.)

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by homersapien

[abw0004 10,125]

Emory hospital is already maxed out again FYI.  This could get very nasty in the next few months, especially for those unvaccinated.

[McLoofus 35,182]

On 8/13/2021 at 9:27 PM, bigbird said:

The vaccine won't stop any of that. Vaccinated people spread it just as easily, they just don't react the same once they have the virus.

 

Quote

Also, a new study from Imperial College London suggests that unvaccinated people are three times more likely than those who are fully vaccinated to test positive for COVID-19. Researchers also said fully vaccinated people are less likely to transmit the virus to others.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/risks-of-the-delta-variant-for-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-people#The-vaccines-and-the-Delta-variant

https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/90800/2/react1_r13_final_preprint_final.pdf

 

[bigbird 60,569]

59 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

 

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/risks-of-the-delta-variant-for-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-people#The-vaccines-and-the-Delta-variant

https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/90800/2/react1_r13_final_preprint_final.pdf

 

Correct, I meant once the vaccinated person had achieved the viral load necessary to spread it. At that point, it's the same.  That's never been argued.

[McLoofus 35,182]

6 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Correct, I meant once the vaccinated person had achieved the viral load necessary to spread it. At that point, it's the same.  That's never been argued.

Important distinction. I'm sure you made it elsewhere in the thread. I haven't read all of it. 

[bigbird 60,569]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

Important distinction. I'm sure you made it elsewhere in the thread. I haven't read all of it. 

Indeed! and I did.

[bigbird 60,569]

That's just weird, @icanthearyou

 

what are you facepalming in that one...or did the midol wear off?

[autigeremt 6,646]

2 hours ago, bigbird said:

Correct, I meant once the vaccinated person had achieved the viral load necessary to spread it. At that point, it's the same.  That's never been argued.

Because what you say is FACT! 

[homersapien 11,392]

The important point is that vaccinated people are not the ones driving this outbreak.  They are the solution. 

Infections aside, vaccinated persons are far less likely to exhibit severe symptoms that require hospitalizations.  Hospitals in many locations are now beeing overrun with serious covid patients.  By far, most of those patients have not been vaccinated.

The other point is that since vaccinated persons can be reinfected, masking and other measures to reduce infections become even more important.

My concern is that "breakthrough" infections are being used by those who generally oppose public health measures such as masking and vaccination as another reason to spurn vaccination. If everyone was vaccinated we wouldn't be seeing the numbers of severe cases of covid in our emergency rooms and IUCs.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,392]

4 hours ago, bigbird said:

Correct, I meant once the vaccinated person had achieved the viral load necessary to spread it. At that point, it's the same.  That's never been argued.

That's why it's important to consider the big picture.  While that's true, it's only true for individual cases.  That's bad enough, but it says nothing about the total class of vaccinated persons, which as a whole, are much less likely to spread the virus than are unvacccinated persons.  (Perhaps they are less likely to develop the viral loads that lead to transmission?)

Regardless, getting vaccinated is a way to radically reduce one's personal risk as well as bending the curve of infection rates. If everyone was vaccinated, we wouldn't be overloading hospitals.

But the fact "breakthrough" infections and transmission can occur, is why universal masking and keeping ones distance remains so important. 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by homersapien

[bigbird 60,569]

13 minutes ago, homersapien said:

That's why it's important to consider the big picture.  While that's true, it's only true for individual cases.  That's bad enough, but it says nothing about the total class of vaccinated persons, which as a whole, are much less likely to spread the virus than are unvacccinated persons.  (Perhaps they are less likely to develop the viral loads that lead to transmission?)

Regardless, getting vaccinated is a way to radically reduce one's personal risk as well as bending the curve of infection rates. If everyone was vaccinated, we wouldn't be overloading hospitals.

But the fact "breakthrough" infections and transmission can occur, is why universal masking and keeping ones distance remains so important. 

 

You and I may agree with that, but I'm not going to or try to force others into my belief.

 

What a lot of districts are doing out here is while they are supporting the ruling against the mandate, they are heavily encouraging students to continue to mask at school. 

My thought, if my kid mask, then my kid is safe. I fully support the right to be stupid too. Me and my family don't agree, but will support it.

[homersapien 11,392]

11 minutes ago, bigbird said:

My thought, if my kid mask, then my kid is safe. I fully support the right to be stupid too. Me and my family don't agree, but will support it.

The problem with that is that masks are probably more important for preventing transmission than they are for preventing the mask wearer from getting infected.

In other words, masking your kid when few of the other kids are not masked is likely going to increase the risk of infection for your kid regardless of his mask.

Bottom line, effectively combating a pandemic requires a social response.  Individual responses aren't going to do it.

[McLoofus 35,182]

4 minutes ago, bigbird said:

I'm not going to or try to force others into my belief.

It's not a "belief", though. It's a statistically demonstrable truth. 

Protecting people is not overreach. It's literally the most important job a government does. 

Countless laws exist to protect American citizens from each other's stupidity. That people are making an exception for this is beyond comprehension. 

We really are so narcissistic and selfish as a culture that our right to be dangerous morons is really more important than the rights of others to live safely. Just really insane stuff. 

 

7 minutes ago, bigbird said:

My thought, if my kid mask, then my kid is safe.

Has additional info come out contradicting the previous findings that the masks primarily keep *others* safe from the spray of the people wearing them? Honest question. 

[AU9377 4,977]

28 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

It's not a "belief", though. It's a statistically demonstrable truth. 

Protecting people is not overreach. It's literally the most important job a government does. 

Countless laws exist to protect American citizens from each other's stupidity. That people are making an exception for this is beyond comprehension. 

We really are so narcissistic and selfish as a culture that our right to be dangerous morons is really more important than the rights of others to live safely. Just really insane stuff. 

 

Has additional info come out contradicting the previous findings that the masks primarily keep *others* safe from the spray of the people wearing them? Honest question. 

They do both and always have.  This is where the CDC and NIH really made a mess of the issue from the start.  That said, some people want them to be perfect and they are not.  They simply help.  Some help more than others.  With the rate of transmission of the Delta variant, N-95 masks are most effective.  This includes KN-95 an KN-94 masks.  For those that do not know, N-95 is equivalent to HEPA filtration.

https://www.news10.com/news/science/49-scientific-studies-explain-why-face-masks-work/