Allen Greene needs to step up concerning vaccinations

[DAG 34,017]

Just now, NoALtiger said:

I’m sorry I know this is a serious thread and all but this has to be nominated for post of the day. Perfect timing and a perfect response sir! I hope it’s not lost on folks. 

Because you know the answer lol. It is like this poster accusing me of putting people at a death sentence. Umm you put yourself at a death panel, when you choose to lower the chance of your survivor based on your own actions. 

[au302 2,669]

36 minutes ago, homersapien said:

But that's exactly the point.  There is a way of eliminating that risk.

Just ask Sabin.

I would agree that there is a way of greatly reducing the risk, but I disagree with you that there is a way of eliminating it

[AuCivilEng1 11,026]

2 minutes ago, NoALtiger said:

Ha I’m married to a nurse, there’s no one I advocate more than healthcare pros. Like I said before, I agree with you on almost everything with the exception of treating vax patients over unvaccinated. Surely there’s a way to avoid letting people die in parking lots simply because they are too numbskulled to do something themselves that’s all.  

There really isn’t. That’s insinuating that  people who aren’t doing what they can to protect themselves and have had the opportunity to deserve to be taking resources on the same level as people that have. At some point, it’s going to have to be decided. I personally think that the “it’s just a cold” crowd should stand behind their words. Prove it! Stay at home and self medicate with DayQuil 

[AUght2win 6,873]

8 minutes ago, DAG said:

Yes and they don't have to receive the ICU bed, did you not get that. The diabetic person you talked about may never touch an ICU bed even though they may need it because their history shows they aren't adherent. DO YOU NOT GET THAT? Some of you guys have no clue, how healthcare decisions work. Do you think everyone who makes a bad decision gets an ICU bed or goes to inpatient in the mental health system? NO! And guess what, since the resources are lacking there is even less opportunity to do so. AND FURTHER, PEOPLE WHO ARENT' VACCINATED ARE TAKING AWAY BEDS FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE ALL THE RIGHT THINGS AND NEED ELECTIVE SURGERY. Or the person who might've been an a terrible accident and they can't get to a magnet hospital so now they have to get flight for life to another small ass hospital with minimal resources to stabilize them. Quite frankly the examples you put out there rarely get to the ICU because they are stabilized in intermediate care. However, there quite a few unvaccinated people who are getting to the ICU and it is very much preventable. Do you not get that?  Can an obese person put their elderly neighbor at risk for being obese?

But Japan's point remains. If you start refusing medical care to people who make "ignorant", self-inflicted decisions you have to turn away anyone with an STD, non-birth contracted AIDS patients, drug overdoses, alcohol related problems, etc. It shouldn't apply to just Covid.

And the "you can't give someone else ____ like Covid" isn't a good argument. Firstly, it's arbitrary. Second, it isn't true. You can pass on AIDS, STDs, and hurt others while high or drunk. Innocent people get hurt by those actions too. So it isn't like Covid is some ethical anomaly. 

 

[japantiger 4,051]

13 minutes ago, DAG said:

Yes and they don't have to receive the ICU bed, did you not get that. The diabetic person you talked about may never touch an ICU bed even though they may need it because their history shows they aren't adherent. DO YOU NOT GET THAT? Some of you guys have no clue, how healthcare decisions work. Do you think everyone who makes a bad decision gets an ICU bed or goes to inpatient in the mental health system? NO! And guess what, since the resources are lacking there is even less opportunity to do so. AND FURTHER, PEOPLE WHO ARENT' VACCINATED ARE TAKING AWAY BEDS FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE ALL THE RIGHT THINGS AND NEED ELECTIVE SURGERY. Or the person who might've been an a terrible accident and they can't get to a magnet hospital so now they have to get flight for life to another small ass hospital with minimal resources to stabilize them. Quite frankly the examples you put out there rarely get to the ICU because they are stabilized in intermediate care. However, there quite a few unvaccinated people who are getting to the ICU and it is very much preventable. Do you not get that?  Can an obese person put their elderly neighbor at risk for being obese?

There's quite a lot about health care I don't understand; but I do understand math. 

Since the leading causes of death are heart disease, cancer, accidents and AIDS among the young, etc.; these populations represent the majority of the use of critical care beds.  So while some "could" be denied; as a rule they are not or the distribution of healthcare treatment dollars and causes of death would not be what they are. 

Today's CDC data on bed capacity is that 63% of hospital beds nationwide are occupied.  9% by Covid patients.  Of all ICU beds, 61% are occupied. 

Under these circumstances, you'd be a ghoul if you refused  unvaxed people treatment over a half-assed reason like beds not being available.   

The data sets you free.

[DAG 34,017]

Just now, AUght2win said:

But Japan's point remains. If you start refusing medical care to people who make "ignorant", self-inflicted decisions you have to turn away anyone with an STD, non-birth contracted AIDS patients, drug overdoses, alcohol related problems, etc. It shouldn't apply to just Covid.

And the "you can't give someone else ____ like Covid" isn't a good argument. Firstly, it's arbitrary. Second, it isn't true. You can pass on AIDS, STDs, and hurt others while high or drunk. Innocent people get hurt by those actions too. So it isn't like Covid is some ethical anomaly. 

 

But what you don't get, those people do get turned away. For example, alcohol related problems, if we don't have a bed to detox you, you do not get admitted PERIOD. A COVID issue is a RESPIRATORY ISSUE. That will be prioritized over any of the examples you just made. A person who drug overdose can be narcan on the street and stabilized in the ED. They don't have to get stabilized in the ICU unless it is a continuous RESPIRATORY ISSUE. A person with an STD, wouldn't need to go to the ICU unless their disease is causing a significant RESPIRATORY ISSUE.  So 9/10 out of ten, the COVID person will be prioritized in these scenarios. Unless, it is cardiovascular surgery General surgery or a respiratory issue, people are not going into the ICU. Let's stop with the exaggerations. Now, if you had the opportunity to prevent that, why would you not take that action?

Let me give an example from my own health: Diagnosed with cardiomyopathy. I am black which puts me at risk for heart disease more so than other races. Parents have a hx of HTN. I choose to exercise 5 times a day, not smoke, drink minimally, and maintain my diet because it increases my chances of not obtaining Heart disease. Why would I not take every chance that I can control to keep me out of the hospital. Here is the crutch, even with all of that, I might still get an MI or might need elective surgery. Here is the issue. THE CVICU, CICU, SICU ARE LOSING BEDS TO PATIENTS NEEDING COVID CARE, so they get prioritized over someone who might need that bed for that reason. That is my point. Typically they would be housed in someplace like the MRICU, but now it is so overwhelming that is not the case anymore. So if you hd the opportunity to decrease that even .00001% why would you not take the opportunity?

[tgrogan21 6,198]

This whole argument about vax vs unvaxxed and who gets a bed is crazy. I'm sorry but if I get Covid and an unvaxxer gets Covid and there's only one bed left in the ICU, you best believe that I would be PISSED if I didn't get it.

From March of 2020 until the end of June 2021, I stayed at home almost every second of every day taking care of my elderly parents. When I had to leave the house I made sure that I wore my mask and I stayed far away from everyone else.  I got vaccinated as soon as it was available. Since June and when the unemployment benefits ran out for gig workers, I've only went to work and back home. I stayed 6 feet away from everyone. Despite being vaccinated since April, I've never went out of my house without my mask on.

For 18 months, unless it was for work, I have not went into a restaurant or grocery store or any other public gathering because I can't trust people to have basic common sense and decency to get an effing vaccination or to wear a mask.

So, yeah, I agree with @DAGthat if it came down to someone who did everything right and someone who spat in the face of science and medicine, I would want him to give that bed to the person who got vaccinated.

Edited August 21, 2021 by tgrogan21

[Tigerbelle 5,299]

20 hours ago, TigerPAC said:

Vaccine mandates are controlling.

The vacccine does NOT and will NOT prevent anyone from getting Covid...it never has and was not developed for such purpose.  Some of you need to live in my shoes as a health care provider who has ran a Covid clinic 1.5 years.  Out of our + tests in the past 3-4 weeks, roughy 30-40% of those are vaccinated people.  Some sick, some not

It CAN prevent you from having COVID, and keeps you from being hospitalized or dying if you get sick. The vast majority of people being hospitalized and ventilated are UNVACCINATED. We had 3 med flights on Friday taking patients out to a better equipped,bigger hospital. 3 in one day when we never see 3 in one month. The vast majority of our sick patients are unvaccinated. Those who are mildly ill are all vaccinated and they recover quickly with no lingering issues so far.....no long COVID.  Avoiding long COVID is rarely discussed but it's a serious life changing illness and reason enough to get vaccinated. We have several patients with long COVID and it's sad to see what it has done to their lives.

https://www.uab.edu/news/health/item/12143-three-things-to-know-about-the-long-term-side-effects-of-covid-vaccines 

[DAG 34,017]

3 minutes ago, japantiger said:

There's quite a lot about health care I don't understand; but I do understand math. 

Since the leading causes of death are heart disease, cancer, accidents and AIDS among the young, etc.; these populations represent the majority of the use of critical care beds.  So while some "could" be denied; as a rule they are not or the distribution of healthcare treatment dollars and causes of death would not be what they are. 

Today's CDC data on bed capacity is that 63% of hospital beds nationwide are occupied.  9% by Covid patients.  Of all ICU beds, 61% are occupied. 

Under these circumstances, you'd be a ghoul if you refused  unvaxed people treatment over a half-assed reason like beds not being available.   

The data sets you free.

LMAO . I am done wasting my time.

[e808 3,028]

48 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

How do you feel the largest demo of unvaccinated - POC, who are hesitant because of a history of distrust toward experimental medicine (with valid reason, like the racist Tuskegee experiments). Do I believe some nefarious scheme like that is actually happening? Of course not. But I empathize with people who aren't getting the vaccine out of mistrust. That's the majority of people who won't get the shot. 

For some reason, I think it's easier for people to demonize a vision of an anti-vaxxer as an obnoxious white guy who thinks COVID is a hoax. It's a whole lot wider spectrum than that. 

The problem with that is most of it is hearsay. Most probably weren’t even around for the Tuskegee experiment. Especially today’s athletes.

[jAUSon 2,836]

Yall got this stupid ass thread rigged up where only the crazies can post. Folks with real down the middle answers can't get in. The sad thing is a few of my absolute favorite Aufamily guys are diminishing themselves unknowingly.

[McLoofus 35,182]

 

10 minutes ago, DAG said:

LMAO . I am done wasting my time.

Lol. Dude in here wanting to talk about math and risk assessment when every bit of math and risk assessment says the least risky thing to do is get the vaccine and (max number of ICU beds)-(max number of ICU beds)=0 ICU beds

Trying to remember that time entire states were full up from diabetes and AIDS patients.

Edited August 21, 2021 by McLoofus

[japantiger 4,051]

4 minutes ago, DAG said:

LMAO . I am done wasting my time.

Math hurts.

[DAG 34,017]

4 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

 

Lol. Dude in here wanting to talk about math and risk assessment when every bit of math and risk assessment says the least risky thing to do is get the vaccine and (max number of ICU beds)-(max number of ICU beds)=0 ICU beds

Trying to remember that time entire states were full up from diabetes and AIDS patients.

They aren't and the sad thing is they are checks and balances. The guy who needs a liver transplant because he blew it by continuously drinking away and not being adherent, can spend the rest of his life on a med surge unit, jaundice and rotting away unfortunately because they aren't getting approved for that transplant. Trust, this is not a pleasant sight. People don't want to hear the hard stuff.

 

Magnet hospital criteria.

Excluding Criteria for Liver Transplant

The UPMC Liver Transplant team makes every attempt to ensure that people chosen for transplant evaluation are the most suitable for the surgery. 

There are many requirements for liver transplant surgery. Before you can begin the liver transplant evaluation process, you must be free of:

• Cancer outside the liver
• Alcohol for at least 6 months
• Substance abuse
• Active infections
• Disabling psychiatric conditions
• Documented medical non-compliance
• Lack of adequate social support
• Lack of adequate insurance
• Other diseases or conditions 

You must also be willing and able to make lifestyle changes to support the gift of life that a liver transplant provides.

Edited August 21, 2021 by DAG

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, jAUSon said:

Yall got this stupid ass thread rigged up where only the crazies can post. Folks with real down the middle answers can't get in. The sad thing is a few of my absolute favorite Aufamily guys are diminishing themselves unknowingly.

Perhaps it's less about doing it unknowingly than not giving a damn?

Heavy emphasis on the implied "in jAUson's mind" when saying "diminishing themselves", btw. Important qualifier.

By the way, you've passed up multiple chances to offer a real opinion on the issue and have chosen instead to comment on other posters. Not a good look either, boss.

[autigeremt 6,714]

30 minutes ago, AuCivilEng1 said:

There really isn’t. That’s insinuating that  people who aren’t doing what they can to protect themselves and have had the opportunity to deserve to be taking resources on the same level as people that have. At some point, it’s going to have to be decided. I personally think that the “it’s just a cold” crowd should stand behind their words. Prove it! Stay at home and self medicate with DayQuil 

I wish this were expressed prior to Covid when hospitals and ERs were having to do the same kind of thing (resource allocation/loss) for every other illness in America. I can’t tell you how many times we were diverted simply because of drug searchers, flu outbreaks and various other issues. 
 

I suspect more people will get vaccinated. I also suspect the numbers will still be below 85%. 

[wcware 1,365]

I hope all of y’all have explosive diarrhea tonight.

Edited August 21, 2021 by wcware

[AUght2win 6,873]

23 minutes ago, DAG said:

But what you don't get, those people do get turned away. For example, alcohol related problems, if we don't have a bed to detox you, you do not get admitted PERIOD. A COVID issue is a RESPIRATORY ISSUE. That will be prioritized over any of the examples you just made. A person who drug overdose can be narcan on the street and stabilized in the ED. They don't have to get stabilized in the ICU unless it is a continuous RESPIRATORY ISSUE. A person with an STD, wouldn't need to go to the ICU unless their disease is causing a significant RESPIRATORY ISSUE.  So 9/10 out of ten, the COVID person will be prioritized in these scenarios. Unless, it is cardiovascular surgery General surgery or a respiratory issue, people are not going into the ICU. Let's stop with the exaggerations. Now, if you had the opportunity to prevent that, why would you not take that action?

Let me give an example from my own health: Diagnosed with cardiomyopathy. I am black which puts me at risk for heart disease more so than other races. Parents have a hx of HTN. I choose to exercise 5 times a day, not smoke, drink minimally, and maintain my diet because it increases my chances of not obtaining Heart disease. Why would I not take every chance that I can control to keep me out of the hospital. Here is the crutch, even with all of that, I might still get an MI or might need elective surgery. Here is the issue. THE CVICU, CICU, SICU ARE LOSING BEDS TO PATIENTS NEEDING COVID CARE, so they get prioritized over someone who might need that bed for that reason. That is my point. Typically they would be housed in someplace like the MRICU, but now it is so overwhelming that is not the case anymore. So if you hd the opportunity to decrease that even .00001% why would you not take the opportunity?

I agree with that, and I got my vaccine. Plus, you've always said it's people's choice and they have to live with the consequences, so we are on the same page.

All that info makes me wonder though, who goes into the ICU normally? Heart attacks and car accidents?

[McLoofus 35,182]

5 minutes ago, wcware said:

I hope all of y’all have explosive diarrhea tonight.

Dude. That will 100% guarantee we're all on our phones nonstop all night. 

 

[DAG 34,017]

10 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

I agree with that, and I got my vaccine. Plus, you've always said it's people's choice and they have to live with the consequences, so we are on the same page.

All that info makes me wonder though, who goes into the ICU normally? Heart attacks and car accidents?

Depends on the ICU. A lot of specialized ICU are for selective reasons. Very rarely does someone have an TRIPLE AAA and admitted to the CVICU.  A lot of people are stabilized early on and then have an elective surgery to go to the SICU, CVICU or CICU. Respiratory concerns are mostly sent to the MRICU and this usually is due to exacerbation of an underlying disease or at times overdose, though most are now just stabilized in the ED. Now, the MRICU is synonymous with COVID ICU. Gun shot wounds/accidents etc usually are taken to hospital that have trauma units. You got to remember, these are specialized cases with specialized problems. They are not going to send someone with a gunshot wound to a place where there is really no trauma unit, unless they have absolutely no choice. Smaller hospitals have general ICUs but those usually do not take the extremely hard cases. Vented patients seemingly get transferred out of general ICUs to more specialized units.

Edited August 21, 2021 by DAG

[AUght2win 6,873]

2 minutes ago, DAG said:

Depends on the ICU. A lot of specialized ICU are for selective reasons. Very rarely does someone have an TRIPLE AAA and admitted to the CVICU.  A lot of people are stabilized early on and then have an elective surgery to go to the SICU, CVICU or CICU. Respiratory concerns are mostly sent to the MRICU and this usually is due to exacerbation of an underlying disease or at times overdose, though most are now just stabilized in the ED. Now, the MRICU is synonymous with COVID ICU. Gun shot wounds/accidents etc usually are taking to hospital that have trauma units. You got to remember, these are specialized cases with specialized problems. They are not going to send someone with a gunshot wound to a place where there is really no trauma unit, unless they have absolutely no choice. Smaller hospitals have general ICUs but those usually do not take the extremely hard cases. Vented patients seemingly get transferred out of general ICUs to more specialized units.

Thanks for the info.

Yeah it's a horrible situation. One way or another, though, I think this hospital peak will soon fall. Due to immunity via more vaccinations or immunity gained the hard way. I just saw state of Alabama is now up to 47% with at least one shot. Which is like 10% up from a month ago. Just a tough time right now. 

[DAG 34,017]

1 minute ago, AUght2win said:

Thanks for the info.

Yeah it's a horrible situation. One way or another, though, I think this hospital peak will soon fall. Due to immunity via more vaccinations or immunity gained the hard way. I just saw state of Alabama is now up to 47% with at least one shot. Which is like 10% up from a month ago. Just a tough time right now. 

I don't have anymore reactions but I do agree with this.

[homersapien 11,453]

18 hours ago, au302 said:

Good read, thanks for posting. I like how they addressed it head on. We can talk until we're blue in the face about the reason for the divide. That won't change the fact that it's still here and not going anywhere. My personal opinion, it's political. Everything in this country is political. Both sides are guilty of it. Anyone who argues otherwise is naive. The last administration did a fantastic job of getting the vaccine safely and quickly produced. I'll give them that. However, I completely understand why people are hesitant. Each person has to make that decision for them and their family

That's the irony of the politicization of this.  Trump could have endorsed and promoted the vaccines and taken credit for how quickly they were made available.

Instead, he sensed his hard core supporters were inherently inclined to oppose medical and healthcare "experts" -  in fact, experts of any kind. Also he had a long record of pure denial of the pandemic  because he rightly considered it a threat to his piss poor leadership.

Bottom line Trump cares only for himself.  In this case he's vaccinated, even though his MAGA's are resisting.

Edited August 21, 2021 by homersapien

[jAUSon 2,836]

22 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Perhaps it's less about doing it unknowingly than not giving a damn?

Heavy emphasis on the implied "in jAUson's mind" when saying "diminishing themselves", btw. Important qualifier.

By the way, you've passed up multiple chances to offer a real opinion on the issue and have chosen instead to comment on other posters. Not a good look either, boss.

Can't yall are jacked up and hyperattacking.

[jAUSon 2,836]

30 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

boss.

See