Are we ready to admit

[LPTiger 5,159]

On our final possession, we got the ball at the 20 with 3:17 left on the clock and just 2 timeouts.  We surprised them with the first run and picked up 8 yards.  We then tried a short out to pick up the first down and not run any clock.   If we run the ball there and assume we pick up 5 yards, we also run a fair amount of clock even with it stopping to reset the ball on 1st down to just pick up 5 yards.  If we don't pick it up we have run a lot of clock.   Obviously, we don't execute the pass and now it is 3rd and 2 and we still have the time issues.   We again throw it and don't execute.   Once more we throw it and don't execute.   Maybe on the last call with TJ feeling the now or never moment, we should have tried the run.  Still, I think the coaches made the right call. 

[steeleagle 2,945]

3 minutes ago, LPTiger said:

On our final possession, we got the ball at the 20 with 3:17 left on the clock and just 2 timeouts.  We surprised them with the first run and picked up 8 yards.  We then tried a short out to pick up the first down and not run any clock.   If we run the ball there and assume we pick up 5 yards, we also run a fair amount of clock even with it stopping to reset the ball on 1st down to just pick up 5 yards.  If we don't pick it up we have run a lot of clock.   Obviously, we don't execute the pass and now it is 3rd and 2 and we still have the time issues.   We again throw it and don't execute.   Once more we throw it and don't execute.   Maybe on the last call with TJ feeling the now or never moment, we should have tried the run.  Still, I think the coaches made the right call. 

I don't have a problem with the passing calls, but if we did decide to run the ball, it would have been ok on 2nd or 3rd, but on 4th, we have to give the QB more options so the pass was the right call on 4th.

The problem with running it for 2 yards, was (and I went back and charted Tank;s runs), he had at least 6 attempts during the game where he got only 1 yard or less. And our OL has struggled to be successful on short yardage attempts. Houston also was going to stack the box, and shoot LBs into gaps and out number our blockers.

That's why Tank and Hudson were really open on at least the first 2 pass plays. Just poor execution by Finley.

[cbo 7,850]

15 hours ago, AUght2win said:

For most of the day he didn't. 19 carries for 96 yards. Another 60 receiving. 

What's illuminating is your mentality is a Gus Malzahn mentality. He just calls plays, regardless of personnel. You call PLAYS for PLAYERS. Get the ball in the hands of your best athletes when it matters most. 

In 1982 we sent Bo over the top into the teeth of the Alabama D. We didn't let Randy Campbell throw a fade.

Like I said before, 7 of the 19 carries went for one yard or less. The D was expecting the run. We have been stuffed in these situations all season long. 

But you're right that 39 years ago, in a completely different situation, the greatest college RB of all time scored a TD. 

[steeleagle 2,945]

6 minutes ago, cbo said:

Like I said before, 7 of the 19 carries went for one yard or less. The D was expecting the run. We have been stuffed in these situations all season long. 

But you're right that 39 years ago, in a completely different situation, the greatest college RB of all time scored a TD. 

And be sure to let him know too that even great coaches who preach power running can make a mistake.

There was another 4th down run, where our 2nd best RB was 'waxed' and din't score. Our HC didn't even give the ball to the best RB in the history of Auburn RBs....

[AUght2win 6,837]

7 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

It meant less than nothing in the grand scheme of the program.  I only watched in hopes of seeing DD play.

Exactly two bowl games have meaning now and the Birmingham Bowl ain't one 'em.

Just not true at all. Difference in a winning season and a losing season. Losing seasons are extremely rare at Auburn. Even for first year coaches. It could have quieted a lot of fears and gotten us momentum going into spring. 

[AUght2win 6,837]

1 hour ago, cole256 said:

I realize I didn't answer op question. Me and op had a rough start but I've come to really respect him and I hope he feels the same. But one thing I'll say about him is he's not just arguing to argue, he feels how he says and any debate he's going to have some stuff to offer. He's going to make you think.

With all that being said my antenna will certainly be up. But it's not because of us losing the last few games. I feel like if you really want to evaluate a coach it's that second year that tells you the most

Thanks Cole. I respect your opinion too, bud. I'm still totally team Harsin. The verdict is very much out. I truly just want Auburn to succeed. I may not always have the right ideas about how to do that, but my opinion is never tainted by an allegiance to a coach or player over the school. I absolutely 1000% want Harsin to be the guy. 

[AUght2win 6,837]

1 hour ago, cbo said:

Like I said before, 7 of the 19 carries went for one yard or less. The D was expecting the run. We have been stuffed in these situations all season long. 

But you're right that 39 years ago, in a completely different situation, the greatest college RB of all time scored a TD. 

I'd always rather go down swinging with the ball in my best players' hands. Especially when the gap in ability is as large as it is between TJ and Tank. At least Tank can make something out of nothing on any given down. That's what playmakers do.

[AUght2win 6,837]

1 hour ago, LPTiger said:

On our final possession, we got the ball at the 20 with 3:17 left on the clock and just 2 timeouts.  We surprised them with the first run and picked up 8 yards.  We then tried a short out to pick up the first down and not run any clock.   If we run the ball there and assume we pick up 5 yards, we also run a fair amount of clock even with it stopping to reset the ball on 1st down to just pick up 5 yards.  If we don't pick it up we have run a lot of clock.   Obviously, we don't execute the pass and now it is 3rd and 2 and we still have the time issues.   We again throw it and don't execute.   Once more we throw it and don't execute.   Maybe on the last call with TJ feeling the now or never moment, we should have tried the run.  Still, I think the coaches made the right call. 

3:17 is an eternity in modern football, though. I didn't necessarily fear the clock at the start of the drive. Not saying we should or could have ran it the entirety of the drive. But we had time to run the ball. 

[AUght2win 6,837]

One argument that's made me feel better is the fact that our line truly is in shambles. Which makes margin for error in coaching nonexistent. If we fix that, we fix a lot of things. 

There's also precedent for HORRIBLE game managers to be good coaches. Les Miles was one of the worst game managers in history. Kirby Smart sucks at it too. And truth be told, in games where Saban faces equal talent he is outcoached more often than not. 

But those 3 coaches were excellent recruiters and developers, with the might of a flagship school behind them. If Harsin can recruit and develop, he might be able to overcome his management issues, even if they don't improve. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

27 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

Just not true at all. Difference in a winning season and a losing season. Losing seasons are extremely rare at Auburn. Even for first year coaches. It could have quieted a lot of fears and gotten us momentum going into spring. 

The idea that non-playoff or championship bowl wins/losses give you a magical springboard or hurt you next year is nonsense.  Just look at the last decade or so for AU:

2011: won bowl, went 3-9 next year

2014: lost bowl, went 7-6 next year

2015: won bowl, improved one whole game to 8-5 next year

2016: lost bowl, won the division next year (10-4)

2017: lost bowl, went 8-5 next year

2018: won bowl, improved one game to 9-4

Point being, there's zero correlation with bowl wins leading to major improvement.  In fact, our best year-over-year improvements came after bowl losses or not appearing in one at all (2012 to 2013).

Want other recent examples?

Texas went 7-3 and won the Alamo Bowl last year.  They didn't even make a bowl in 2021.

They also won the Sugar following the 2018 season by beating UGA.  Here's what happened in 2019:

Texas went 8-5

UGA went 12-2

Edited December 30, 2021 by Brad_ATX

[Didba 5,256]

2 hours ago, steeleagle said:

I don't have a problem with the passing calls, but if we did decide to run the ball, it would have been ok on 2nd or 3rd, but on 4th, we have to give the QB more options so the pass was the right call on 4th.

The problem with running it for 2 yards, was (and I went back and charted Tank;s runs), he had at least 6 attempts during the game where he got only 1 yard or less. And our OL has struggled to be successful on short yardage attempts. Houston also was going to stack the box, and shoot LBs into gaps and out number our blockers.

That's why Tank and Hudson were really open on at least the first 2 pass plays. Just poor execution by Finley.

Precisely what I have been trying to point out to people, in the "THE BALL SHOULD BE IN OUR BEST PLAYER'S HANDS ON THE MOST IMPORTANT PLAY" group.

[JuscAUse! 1,410]

17 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

My main point was that Sam Pittman has won at Arkansas with the players he inherited. He's done more with less. Pittman had never been a HC as the FBS level. Arkansas is his first HC gig. 

Harsin's got a lot more talent to work with than Pittman does. None of Arkansas's starting O-line are 4 stars. They're all 3 stars. Their O-line is not that talented but Pittman has helped developed them.

Clemson has won 10 games in 11 straight seasons. If Dabo Sweeney had been hired at AU, he would have been fired before his first 10 win season. Assuming about half this thread had the ability to do so. Oh, and Bear would have been let go mid career. 

[Didba 5,256]

1 hour ago, cbo said:

Like I said before, 7 of the 19 carries went for one yard or less. The D was expecting the run. We have been stuffed in these situations all season long. 

But you're right that 39 years ago, in a completely different situation, the greatest college RB of all time scored a TD. 

Yet, he says I am the insane person in the minority with my views on this forum.  Strange though that you and others keep repeating the same stuff I and y'all have been saying since the game ended. 

[AUght2win 6,837]

8 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

The idea that non-playoff or championship bowl wins/losses give you a magical springboard or hurt you next year is nonsense.  Just look at the last decade or so for AU:

2011: won bowl, went 3-9 next year

2014: lost bowl, went 7-6 next year

2015: won bowl, improved one whole game to 8-5 next year

2016: lost bowl, won the division next year (10-4)

2017: lost bowl, went 8-5 next year

2018: won bowl, improved one game to 9-4

Point being, there's zero correlation with bowl wins leading to major improvement.  In fact, our best year-over-year improvements came after bowl losses or not appearing in one at all (2012 to 2013).

Want other recent examples?

Texas went 7-3 and won the Alamo Bowl last year.  They didn't even make a bowl in 2021.

They also won the Sugar following the 2018 season by beating UGA.  Here's what happened in 2019:

Texas went 8-5

UGA went 12-2

Hey, are you aware that it's the first year for a head coach we paid $73 million for? Well, every other Auburn fan is. Did you also know that we happen to be on a historic losing streak with several double digit blown leads? Did you know that our HC is already sort of in a gray area with our fans due to off the field stuff and fit-questions?

A win would have been great for CBH. It would be great for our recruiting optics to not have a losing season to excuse away. It would have given a sense of turning the page from Bobo and Nix transferring. And it would have rewarded the fans who turned out to support the team for a virtual home game. 

So, no, without the context, that game didn't mean much. But within the context, that game meant a lot.

C'mon. You can't seriously be arguing that Harsin finishing his first season with a winning record as opposed to a losing one is meaningless. 

[cbo 7,850]

1 minute ago, Didba said:

Yet, he says I am the insane person in the minority with my views on this forum.  Strange though that you and others keep repeating the same stuff I and y'all have been saying since the game ended. 

Plenty people on both sides of this one. I think more with me and you, but who knows. Regardless, none of these takes are insane. Decent debate overall. Although it's run its course for me. 

[slyinsocal 831]

5 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

Hey, are you aware that it's the first year for a head coach we paid $73 million for? Well, every other Auburn fan is. Did you also know that we happen to be on a historic losing streak with several double digit blown leads? Did you know that our HC is already sort of in a gray area with our fans due to off the field stuff and fit-questions?

A win would have been great for CBH. It would be great for our recruiting optics to not have a losing season to excuse away. It would have given a sense of turning the page from Bobo and Nix transferring. And it would have rewarded the fans who turned out to support the team for a virtual home game. 

So, no, without the context, that game didn't mean much. But within the context, that game meant a lot.

C'mon. You can't seriously be arguing that Harsin finishing his first season with a winning record as opposed to a losing one is meaningless. 

How much is Harsin and his staff getting paid again? The exact amount please.

Edited December 30, 2021 by slyinsocal

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

1 minute ago, AUght2win said:

Hey, are you aware that it's the first year for a head coach we paid $73 million for? Well, every other Auburn fan is. Did you also know that we happen to be on a historic losing streak with several double digit blown leads? Did you know that our HC is already sort of in a gray area with our fans due to off the field stuff and fit-questions?

A win would have been great for CBH. It would be great for our recruiting optics to not have a losing season to excuse away. It would have given a sense of turning the page from Bobo and Nix transferring. And it would have rewarded the fans who turned out to support the team for a virtual home game. 

So, no, without the context, that game didn't mean much. But within the context, that game meant a lot.

C'mon. You can't seriously be arguing that Harsin finishing his first season with a winning record as opposed to a losing one is meaningless. 

Its exactly what I'm arguing.  There's just no real difference in recruiting or national perception between 6-7 and 7-6.  And news flash, recruits aren't making their decisions about where to play based on the outcome of the damn Birmingham Bowl.

If you wasted your money on an inferior bowl game, then that's on you.  Wasn't a secret that several of our best players had opted out and that we would be missing key pieces on the O-line.  You paid for an inferior product.

There's a reason I won't even entertain attending a bowl anymore unless its the playoffs, Sugar, or Vegas.  And the only reason I'm going to NOLA or Vegas is to party.

The kids have largely stopped taking bowl games seriously.  Its a product of today's game and I'm cool with it.  But you need to adjust what these exhibitions actually mean, which is nothing.

[AUght2win 6,837]

2 minutes ago, cbo said:

Plenty people on both sides of this one. I think more with me and you, but who knows. Regardless, none of these takes are insane. Decent debate overall. Although it's run its course for me. 

Yeah good points on both sides. Everything has pretty well been covered. Looking forward to some good transfer news and spring now.

[AUght2win 6,837]

Just now, Brad_ATX said:

Its exactly what I'm arguing.  There's just no real difference in recruiting or national perception between 6-7 and 7-6.  And news flash, recruits aren't making their decisions about where to play based on the outcome of the damn Birmingham Bowl.

If you wasted your money on an inferior bowl game, then that's on you.  Wasn't a secret that several of our best players had opted out and that we would be missing key pieces on the O-line.  You paid for an inferior product.

There's a reason I won't even entertain attending a bowl anymore unless its the playoffs, Sugar, or Vegas.  And the only reason I'm going to NOLA or Vegas is to party.

The kids have largely stopped taking bowl games seriously.  Its a product of today's game and I'm cool with it.  But you need to adjust what these exhibitions actually mean, which is nothing.

Well pal, the vast majority of the Auburn fan base's expectations aren't that low. They never have been and they never will be. When our team plays a football game, it always matters. And when our team suffers a very rare losing record, it's always unacceptable. 

You can have your opinion. But if you're rooting for CBH, you need to understand that this game made the leash shorter. Next year's schedule is tougher and right now our roster looks a LOT worse. 

Unless Harsin does an incredible job, it'll be two consecutive losing seasons to start his tenure. That will be the headline. His seat will be red hot going into year 3. And that just isn't good for anyone. 

[cole256 17,066]

5 minutes ago, cbo said:

Plenty people on both sides of this one. I think more with me and you, but who knows. Regardless, none of these takes are insane. Decent debate overall. Although it's run its course for me. 

Man I have always felt you beat someone in a debate is you have to listen to your opponent pov and actually beat them using their logic......

This I can't even understand the logic to get in there and debate it. I don't see how you can go at Harsin before you see how he develop a few of his guys. I don't see how you judge him on how he handled a screwed up situation somebody else created. Then on top of that compare him to the guy who caused the situation, and on top of that compare him to that guy that has grabbed another team that was built up by somebody else

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

3 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

Well pal, the vast majority of the Auburn fan base's expectations aren't that low. They never have been and they never will be. When our team plays a football game, it always matters. And when our team suffers a very rare losing record, it's always unacceptable. 

You can have your opinion. But if you're rooting for CBH, you need to understand that this game made the leash shorter. Next year's schedule is tougher and right now our roster looks a LOT worse. 

Unless Harsin does an incredible job, it'll be two consecutive losing seasons to start his tenure. That will be the headline. His seat will be red hot going into year 3. And that just isn't good for anyone. 

I'd say my expectations are higher than most of our fans.  I expect to compete for championships.  If we aren't doing that or working towards it, then things need to change.  Its why I wanted Gus gone.  "Winning seasons" don't mean a thing.  Rings do.

[AUght2win 6,837]

14 minutes ago, slyinsocal said:

How much is Harsin and his staff getting paid again? The exact amount please.

https://twitter.com/Tomas_Verde/status/1371575381891936262?s=20

[Viper 3,132]

On 12/28/2021 at 3:28 PM, DAG said:

We just aren’t burning him at the stake like some of you guys want 

Wait till the evening of 11/26/22. You’ll be right behind the matches with the jet fuel. 

[cbo 7,850]

12 minutes ago, cole256 said:

Man I have always felt you beat someone in a debate is you have to listen to your opponent pov and actually beat them using their logic......

This I can't even understand the logic to get in there and debate it. I don't see how you can go at Harsin before you see how he develop a few of his guys. I don't see how you judge him on how he handled a screwed up situation somebody else created. Then on top of that compare him to the guy who caused the situation, and on top of that compare him to that guy that has grabbed another team that was built up by somebody else

Can't disagree with any of that. 

It's always a fine line between debating and venting. For me, this one was about the criticism of certain play calls, which only failed because Harsin has such little offensive talent to work with. 

[fredst 9,064]

13 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

I'd say my expectations are higher than most of our fans.  I expect to compete for championships.  If we aren't doing that or working towards it, then things need to change.  Its why I wanted Gus gone.  "Winning seasons" don't mean a thing.  Rings do.

Yeah, but that Birmingham Bowl hardware would have looked sick in the trophy case. Opportunity lost….