Three 3rd graders, three adults killed by shooter at Nashville elementary school

[Leftfield 2,653]

15 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

It really doesn’t matter what the issue was over does it?  To try to paint me as a Confederate sympathizer is ludicrous on its face.  You should really grow up.

You repeatedly bring up things that have nothing to do with what I'm saying, then you claim I'm the one twisting.

There is a massive difference between state governments seceding and a group or groups of private citizens attempting to overthrow the government. You simply assumed that in my hypothetical some of the states would go along with it. Why would that be?

You're trying to find ways to weasel away from my point, which was that any competent government would not enable itself to be violently overthrown, and such the absolutists' interpretation of the 2nd Amendment makes no sense.

[I_M4_AU 7,986]

1 minute ago, Leftfield said:

You repeatedly bring up things that have nothing to do with what I'm saying, then you claim I'm the one twisting.

There is a massive difference between state governments seceding and a group or groups of private citizens attempting to overthrow the government. You simply assumed that in my hypothetical some of the states would go along with it. Why would that be?

You're trying to find ways to weasel away from my point, which was that any competent government would not enable itself to be violently overthrown, and such the absolutists' interpretation of the 2nd Amendment makes no sense.

Maybe you’re not making your point clear enough.  The 2nd Amendment is not about overthrowing the government as much as a deterrent to the government for making tyrannical decisions that are contrary to the Constitution, i.e. unnecessary vaccine mandates with experimental vaccines.

[Leftfield 2,653]

3 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Maybe you’re not making your point clear enough.  The 2nd Amendment is not about overthrowing the government as much as a deterrent to the government for making tyrannical decisions that are contrary to the Constitution, i.e. unnecessary vaccine mandates with experimental vaccines.

Or maybe you've fallen so far down the hatred rabbit hole that you can't use your head any more, because I've already made the point that allowing someone the ability to resist following the law necessarily means they potentially have the force to overthrow the government should they choose to do so. Either you're ignoring that point, or I've truly misjudged your intellect and you simply can't figure it out. Regardless of either, this has become a futile exercise, because no matter how smart you may be, right now you're acting dumber than a Christmas ham.

[I_M4_AU 7,986]

9 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

law necessarily means they potentially have the force to overthrow the government should they choose to do so.

This is your point?  They *potentially* have the force?  Good God, man.  Is this why (I would guess) you believe Jan. 6th was an insurrection?

*Head up your ass* is the phrase I would use.

[AU9377 5,035]

1 hour ago, Mikey said:

Biden didn't inherit a mess. He took something that was functioning and deliberately broke it. Illegal border crossings, FY2020, 400,600. Illegal border crossings 2022, 2.76 million. It's Biden's border catastrophe and his alone. He was so hell-bent on reversing everything Trump did that he threw the baby out with the bath water. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/04/after-surging-in-2019-migrant-apprehensions-at-u-s-mexico-border-fell-sharply-in-fiscal-2020-2/

Same deal with choking down America's energy industry. All he accomplished was to finance Russia's war by increasing the value and quantity of the Russian's oil exports. PS: The Russians don't care about the environment. U.S. produced oil and gas are cleaner, but Biden wants Russia to prosper so...

Same deal with refusing to issue permits for rare earth mining in America. All that did was make us dependent on China for these things and making us finance China's military buildup. Looks like Biden prefers rare earth produced by slave labor in China to providing environmentally sound jobs in the United States.

Oh well, they don't call him Bungling Biden for nothing, it's a name he has earned.

 

The problem is that this is a false premise.  There cannot be a real conversation about what is and what is not as long as there is so much bad information feeding the need for the far right to see the other side as evil that must be destroyed.

https://news.yahoo.com/biden-granted-more-oil-and-gas-drilling-permits-than-trump-in-his-first-2-years-in-office-190528616.html

https://apnews.com/article/oil-sale-biden-gulf-of-mexico-9cada1581326595736d2ff7357d10161

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-approves-willow-project-oil-drilling-alaska/

 

[I_M4_AU 7,986]

 

 

[GoAU 1,600]

On 4/1/2023 at 2:13 PM, AU9377 said:

Are there no limitations that he/she should face?  An 18 year old high school student, known gang member that spent 3 years in a youth detention center from the ages of 12-15 for participating in an armed robbery should be able to legally buy as many guns as he wants according to that line of thought.

We cannot have an orderly society with no control.  What happened to law and order? I don't know anyone in law enforcement that feels safer knowing they are out numbered and out armed.

How about prosecuting the known gang member for the crimes he’s committed, and therefore making him ineligible to own firearms?   Instead we seem adverse to prosecuting and sentencing criminals, and then seem surprised when they legally buy firearms…..

On 4/1/2023 at 9:05 PM, DKW 86 said:

Maybe not an AR-15 that can easily be made into a fully automatic rifle that no one needs for sport nor hunting.

Easily?   Care to describe how exactly it can be converted “easily”?   And once again, the second amendment has nothing at all to do with sport and hunting?   Gasoline, bottles and laundry suds can be converted into other items as well, but having them isn’t illegal.  If you find people converting ARs into fully automatic smweapons prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law.  
 

However banning the most popular rifle in our nation over what somebody “might” do is a disingenuous method of restricting rights.  

Edited April 3, 2023 by GoAU

[Mikey 16,721]

10 hours ago, AU9377 said:

The problem is that this is a false premise.  There cannot be a real conversation about what is and what is not as long as there is so much bad information feeding the need for the far right to see the other side as evil that must be destroyed.

https://news.yahoo.com/biden-granted-more-oil-and-gas-drilling-permits-than-trump-in-his-first-2-years-in-office-190528616.html

https://apnews.com/article/oil-sale-biden-gulf-of-mexico-9cada1581326595736d2ff7357d10161

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-approves-willow-project-oil-drilling-alaska/

 

Biden did approve the Alaska deal. The others, he's conveniently let regulators stop them from producing. We still don't know if that Alaska situation will result in oil being pumped or if the regulators will find some excuse to stop that too.

I see you have no comment on the border you claim isn't open. It's wide open and illegals from many different nations are flooding across while Biden talks green energy and won't comment on his controllers, the Communist Chinese.

[AU9377 5,035]

4 hours ago, GoAU said:

How about prosecuting the known gang member for the crimes he’s committed, and therefore making him ineligible to own firearms?   Instead we seem adverse to prosecuting and sentencing criminals, and then seem surprised when they legally buy firearms…..

Easily?   Care to describe how exactly it can be converted “easily”?   And once again, the second amendment has nothing at all to do with sport and hunting?   Gasoline, bottles and laundry suds can be converted into other items as well, but having them isn’t illegal.  If you find people converting ARs into fully automatic smweapons prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law.  
 

However banning the most popular rifle in our nation over what somebody “might” do is a disingenuous method of restricting rights.  

We incarcerate more people than any other country on the planet.  You can always find a few cases where someone should have been prosecuted or not released early, but you never hear about the 1,000 other people that were released early and went back to work or simply stayed out of serious trouble.   It doesn't matter how popular the rifle is.  It is of no real value in terms of its utility other than to kill human beings.  The vast majority of Americans share that point of view.  We have to start acting like the adults in the room and stop being defensive as though it is us and them about everything.

I own guns.  I have 4 hunting rifles, 2 shotguns and a Smith & Wesson .38 special that I inherited from my grandfather.  I have lived in good and bad neighborhoods in New Orleans, Atlanta, Chicago & in rural America.  I have never felt like I needed to be armed at all times.  The answer to solving part of our problem with gun related homicides has to include reducing the supply and ease of access to weapons. 

Doing nothing only allows the problem to get worse.

[AU9377 5,035]

4 hours ago, Mikey said:

Biden did approve the Alaska deal. The others, he's conveniently let regulators stop them from producing. We still don't know if that Alaska situation will result in oil being pumped or if the regulators will find some excuse to stop that too.

I see you have no comment on the border you claim isn't open. It's wide open and illegals from many different nations are flooding across while Biden talks green energy and won't comment on his controllers, the Communist Chinese.

It isn't wide open. I won't argue about something that isn't real.  Do people cross illegally?  Yes.  Do the vast majority come to a border checkpoint and surrender themselves to agents?  Yes.  What would you like be done?  We have laws and a constitution.  For over 250 years we pleaded for people to come here. 

Remember this?  This is the concept of America that our immigration laws are premised upon.  I am not claiming that things haven't changed, but unless we have immigration reform, the issues will remain.  Like I have mentioned above, we can always make employers face mandatory jail time for employing anyone not legally working in the U.S..  If there are no jobs, the problem will also lessen.

Edited April 3, 2023 by AU9377

[AU9377 5,035]

15 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

This is your point?  They *potentially* have the force?  Good God, man.  Is this why (I would guess) you believe Jan. 6th was an insurrection?

*Head up your ass* is the phrase I would use.

Jan 6th storming of the capitol was clearly an attempt to prevent the U.S. Congress from doing its duty in recording and ratifying the votes of the Electoral College. They weren't just taking a tour.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

Fortifying structures whether home, business or schools in this particular case is a smart investment. Unfortunate yes, but when you pass on enforcing gun laws and allow felons to roam freely it is wise. So too is the investment in SRO's. Simply a no brainer in this day and age.

I'm all for background checks and longer wait periods, but unless mental health issues are reported or researched, (as by medical professionals and/or social media madness recognized for what it is) it could be fruitless. 

And I get the left doesn't want to talk about mental health, but it has to be addressed. Why are our youth so conflicted? Is it drugs we are putting in their bodies or drugs they freely ingest? Is it social media? Godlessness? Because we glorify them in media instead of them remaining nameless like the daily murders in cities across the country?

And why are we only discussing this when a mass shooting occurs? Young black and brown children die daily in our inner cities at a rate that far exceeds mass shootings. Do their lives not matter? You don't talk about them here? Show me the latest thread you started about them, I'll wait. When you're disingenuous about child deaths people aren't going to listen. It's an all or nothing proposition. You don't get to cherry pick.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

An interesting take from NewsNation:

 

[DKW 86 7,440]

10 hours ago, GoAU said:

How about prosecuting the known gang member for the crimes he’s committed, and therefore making him ineligible to own firearms?   Instead we seem adverse to prosecuting and sentencing criminals, and then seem surprised when they legally buy firearms…..

Easily?   Care to describe how exactly it can be converted “easily”?   And once again, the second amendment has nothing at all to do with sport and hunting?   Gasoline, bottles and laundry suds can be converted into other items as well, but having them isn’t illegal.  If you find people converting ARs into fully automatic smweapons prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law.  
 

However banning the most popular rifle in our nation over what somebody “might” do is a disingenuous method of restricting rights.  

https://www.recoilweb.com/turning-your-ar-15-into-an-m-16-150631.html

https://www.quora.com/Can-you-convert-an-AR-15-into-an-automatic-rifle

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/full-automatic-conversions-ar-15-rifles

https://utm-nra.com/product/ar-15-conversion/

 

[I_M4_AU 7,986]

5 hours ago, AU9377 said:

Jan 6th storming of the capitol was clearly an attempt to prevent the U.S. Congress from doing its duty in recording and ratifying the votes of the Electoral College. They weren't just taking a tour.

Do you think it was an organized attempt or just a crowd getting out of control? 

[homersapien 11,440]

13 hours ago, Mikey said:

It's wide open and illegals from many different nations are flooding across while Biden talks green energy and won't comment on his controllers, the Communist Chinese.

First "Biden wants to help Russia"

Then Biden "won't comment on his controllers, the Communist Chinese."

Man, that's self-parody at it's finest.   

 

[Mikey 16,721]

20 hours ago, AU9377 said:

What would you like be done?  We have laws and a constitution.  For over 250 years we pleaded for people to come here. 

What would I like done? Simply enforce the existing laws and the Constitution. Applicants go through a process and get admitted legally. Illegals get sent back across the border. Biden allowed 2.76 million illegals into this country last year alone.

Reporter to Border Patrol Chief: "Do we have operational control of the border?" Chief: "No". If that's not a wide open border I don't know what is.

For 250 years we have admitted legal immigrants. That's what I want to do, admit legal immigrants and send the illegals packing back across the river. Instead the Wimp in Washington finds $80 billion for more IRS agents but won't adequately fund the Border Patrol so they can do their job. Shameful!

 

[Mikey 16,721]

11 hours ago, homersapien said:

First "Biden wants to help Russia"

Then Biden "won't comment on his controllers, the Communist Chinese."

Man, that's self-parody at it's finest.   

 

He's helped Russia and bows to his controllers in China. There's not much to discuss about those two things, it's Biden at his finest.

[Mikey 16,721]

21 hours ago, AU9377 said:

Jan 6th storming of the capitol was clearly an attempt to prevent the U.S. Congress from doing its duty in recording and ratifying the votes of the Electoral College. They weren't just taking a tour.

Jan. 6 was a minor dust-up. Only a complete fool thinks there was the slightest chance that the protestors could prevent any government process from happening.

If you want to see what a riot looks like go back to videos of Minneapolis, Portland and Seattle. Those were riots that had serious consequences. We had the Vice President of the United States raising bail money for the looters. Fast, low bail would be more appropriate for the Jan. 6 people.

[GoAU 1,600]

21 hours ago, AU9377 said:

We incarcerate more people than any other country on the planet.  You can always find a few cases where someone should have been prosecuted or not released early, but you never hear about the 1,000 other people that were released early and went back to work or simply stayed out of serious trouble.   It doesn't matter how popular the rifle is.  It is of no real value in terms of its utility other than to kill human beings.  The vast majority of Americans share that point of view.  We have to start acting like the adults in the room and stop being defensive as though it is us and them about everything.

I own guns.  I have 4 hunting rifles, 2 shotguns and a Smith & Wesson .38 special that I inherited from my grandfather.  I have lived in good and bad neighborhoods in New Orleans, Atlanta, Chicago & in rural America.  I have never felt like I needed to be armed at all times.  The answer to solving part of our problem with gun related homicides has to include reducing the supply and ease of access to weapons. 

Doing nothing only allows the problem to get worse.

So in the same post you are saying:

1) We prosecute too many people for choosing not to follow the law

2) We need to ban weapons for no other reason that you don’t find a need

Frankly I’m sick of people who say “I have a hunting rifle or a shotgun” - so what?  That has nothing to do with the purpose of the Second Amendment. Just because you don’t agree or feel the need to exercise it doesn’t make it valid.  The tool that these idiots use is much less relevant than the “why”.  
 

Just because we can solve problems by removing people’s rights doesn’t mean we should.  

[AU9377 5,035]

12 hours ago, Mikey said:

Jan. 6 was a minor dust-up. Only a complete fool thinks there was the slightest chance that the protestors could prevent any government process from happening.

If you want to see what a riot looks like go back to videos of Minneapolis, Portland and Seattle. Those were riots that had serious consequences. We had the Vice President of the United States raising bail money for the looters. Fast, low bail would be more appropriate for the Jan. 6 people.

Congress was forced to suspend what they were doing and reconvene.  A woman was shot dead in the window after breaking it and climbing thru.  The situation was a very serious one.  Was the government in danger of collapse?  Of course not, but that doesn't mean the situation was anything less than what it was.  I don't know anything about the VP raising bail money for looters.  As with every story like that, I am skeptical due to the sources and their clear agenda.

Those sources are the same sources that have admitted lying about the 2020 election.  Those lies and the lies of the then sitting President encouraged what happened on Jan 6th.  You have to at the very least admit that.

[AU9377 5,035]

12 hours ago, GoAU said:

So in the same post you are saying:

1) We prosecute too many people for choosing not to follow the law

2) We need to ban weapons for no other reason that you don’t find a need

Frankly I’m sick of people who say “I have a hunting rifle or a shotgun” - so what?  That has nothing to do with the purpose of the Second Amendment. Just because you don’t agree or feel the need to exercise it doesn’t make it valid.  The tool that these idiots use is much less relevant than the “why”.  
 

Just because we can solve problems by removing people’s rights doesn’t mean we should.  

The 2nd amendment is not an unlimited right.  That said, the constitution is also not the writings of Jesus Christ either.  The document is a masterpiece for the establishment of an elected government with checks and balances and has been modeled to some extent around the world.  However, there is a process by which the constitution can be amended to address concerns and make its application more clearly reflect the will of the people.

What is your solution to the uniquely American problem of having too many damn guns on the streets?  If more guns made us safer, we wouldn't have an astronomically higher violent gun crime rate compared to other nations of wealth.

I addressed our prison population because you suggested we keep more people locked up.  That clearly isn't working.

The fact that the weapons we are discussing are toys more than useful weapons is important.  Were rights being harmed when they were banned? No, yet now people want to scream that they are popular, therefore taking them is infringing upon them in some fantasy way.

Edited April 4, 2023 by AU9377

[GoAU 1,600]

2 hours ago, AU9377 said:

The 2nd amendment is not an unlimited right.  That said, the constitution is also not the writings of Jesus Christ either.  The document is a masterpiece for the establishment of an elected government with checks and balances and has been modeled to some extent around the world.  However, there is a process by which the constitution can be amended to address concerns and make its application more clearly reflect the will of the people.

What is your solution to the uniquely American problem of having too many damn guns on the streets?  If more guns made us safer, we wouldn't have an astronomically higher violent gun crime rate compared to other nations of wealth.

I addressed our prison population because you suggested we keep more people locked up.  That clearly isn't working.

The fact that the weapons we are discussing are toys more than useful weapons is important.  Were rights being harmed when they were banned? No, yet now people want to scream that they are popular, therefore taking them is infringing upon them in some fantasy way.

Your comment about the 2nd amendment not being an unlimited right, comes from what?  Biden’s talking points?  However, I have never said or implied that there doesn’t need to be some restrictions, and there are.  There are literally thousands of gun laws at the national, state, and local levels - clearly they aren’t solving the issue.  Somehow “more laws” is your answer??  And when “assault rifles” (whatever you want that term to mean today) doesn’t fix the issue (and it won’t, because ALL homicides committed with rifles - not just “assault” rifles only account for 1% of firearm homicides) then you’ll want to move along to handguns, then magazine, sizes, then revolvers and lever action guns.  It is impossible to legislate this issue away without a continuously moving sliding scale, but maybe that’s what the gun control crowd wants, right?  
 

I find it both disingenuous and disturbing that you’re willing to encroach on the rights of law abiding citizens for “safety” in the same breath that you complain we are punishing too many people that really do violate the laws.  
 

How do you feel about restricting cars and alcohol from everyone to reduce the drunk driving deaths?   Care to blame restaurants and utensil companies for obesity?  It’s awful big of you to sacrifice the rights of others so you can “fee” safe.  
 

“Shall not be infringed” does sound pretty absolute and clear…..

[AU9377 5,035]

10 minutes ago, GoAU said:

Your comment about the 2nd amendment not being an unlimited right, comes from what?  Biden’s talking points?  However, I have never said or implied that there doesn’t need to be some restrictions, and there are.  There are literally thousands of gun laws at the national, state, and local levels - clearly they aren’t solving the issue.  Somehow “more laws” is your answer??  And when “assault rifles” (whatever you want that term to mean today) doesn’t fix the issue (and it won’t, because ALL homicides committed with rifles - not just “assault” rifles only account for 1% of firearm homicides) then you’ll want to move along to handguns, then magazine, sizes, then revolvers and lever action guns.  It is impossible to legislate this issue away without a continuously moving sliding scale, but maybe that’s what the gun control crowd wants, right?  
 

I find it both disingenuous and disturbing that you’re willing to encroach on the rights of law abiding citizens for “safety” in the same breath that you complain we are punishing too many people that really do violate the laws.  
 

How do you feel about restricting cars and alcohol from everyone to reduce the drunk driving deaths?   Care to blame restaurants and utensil companies for obesity?  It’s awful big of you to sacrifice the rights of others so you can “fee” safe.  
 

“Shall not be infringed” does sound pretty absolute and clear…..

I pointed out that we incarcerate more people than any other country on the planet.  I did not say that we punish too  many, but common sense dictates that we have a problem that we need to address in ways other than simply locking people up and expecting them to be productive citizens when they are released.  That is just the reality of the situation.

What about this approach to the 2nd Amendment.... Being that the entire reading shows the purpose of the amendment to be for the purpose of a well regulated militia, it would make sense that any gun not suited for that purpose could be banned by the government.  That would mean that the only weapons we would have are the assault rifles, shot guns etc.  Hand guns would not fall into that category.  Is that not a reasonable reading?  Keep in mind that I didn't suggest that, but if we are going to be literal, we should be literal.

Can we agree that we want our problem with violent crime to look more like Canada and Australia than what it does today?  If not, that means you are happy with all the violence.  If you aren't happy with the violence, then make suggestions as to how to reduce that in our society.

[Mikey 16,721]

3 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I don't know anything about the VP raising bail money for looters.

Looters and worse. You should pay more attention to current events. Here is one of many sources. https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-kamala-harris-back-bail-fund-murderers-rapists-1754314