Help me understand delay of game and punting

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,949]

I understand the time tested theory of giving a kicker more room to punt cause  his leg is sooooo strong,  but it also adds 5 yards to the distance the gunners have to run.

2 things...

1.   Wouldn't it be more efficient to - not take the penalty-  and have the punter kick the ball HIGHER,  with less distance?  The Gunners would have 5 yards less to get to where the ball is going to land,  AND have more time to get there. In general having more time to make juke moves that take them a step or two out of the way,  and still get tot he returner as he catches the ball. (May save 1/2 to 1 second for the coverage team.   That is a long way at full speed.)

If something goes wrong,  like last Sat,  it saves our defense 5 yards.

2.  If we are determined to take the penalty,  why do we not try to draw the D off sides EVERY TIME.  If they jump 1st down, or we gain ANOTHER 5 yards added to #1 above,  and can kick the ball even higher but less distance saving the gunners another 1/2 second.  If they don't - nothing lost.   Late in the season, it could even set up a last second fake punt in the right situation.  it is a win, win,  null situation. 

 (note on #1 above )  it would be the kicker version of a short guy shooting over a tall guy when 10 feet from the rim in basketball.  the ball goes a lot higher than it goes distance.  I would assume this would be a second nature  thing and punter would gain a feel for the angle per specific yards of distance at maximum kick height.   After all, it was originally called FOOTball for a reason.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Quietmaninthecorner

[aubaseball 2,697]

Quietman, I agree wholeheartedly.   Didn’t understand what AU was doing during the game and don’t know why teams do it anyway 

[DAG 34,052]

6 hours ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

Wouldn't it be more efficient to - not take the penalty-  and have the punter kick the ball HIGHER,  with less distance? 

That is assuming our Punter can even do that efficiently. Me thinks he can’t 

[EastAl_Tiger 228]

In theory, yes, you make valid points.  In real life, I think you overestimate the ability of most punters.  How many times does the situation call for a high and short-ish punt, but the punter drills it through the endzone ?  

[drɘxɘl 69]

Punting high and short is difficult to execute.  Even NFL punters take the extra 5 yards when they can.  5 extra yards to a gunner running full speed is meaningless, literally an extra step or two.  

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,949]

1 hour ago, DAG said:

That is assuming our Punter can even do that efficiently. Me thinks he can’t 

 It can not be much harder than shooting a bow and arrow accurately without sights.   After enough practice, you grow an instinctive feel how to shoot accurately at different distances.   

Are these guy specialists or  just a powerful leg.  I mean,  punting is in their job title .

But there must be some logical reason I am overlooking.  Every team takes the penalty,  and has for as long as I can remember.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Quietmaninthecorner

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,949]

41 minutes ago, drɘxɘl said:

Punting high and short is difficult to execute.  Even NFL punters take the extra 5 yards when they can.  5 extra yards to a gunner running full speed is meaningless, literally an extra step or two.  

I am not trying to die on this hill,   I just want to understand why traditionally taking the penalty is assumed the better option.

That extra step or two could be the difference in sidestepping a blocker and still getting to the ball.  also, the hang time will be slightly longer gaining another step.    Add to that,  the higher angle you kick the ball  the better chance the ball does not bounce forward into the endzone if not fielded.   

 

I am not a punter by any means,  But I can go out in the back yard and punt, maybe 40 yards,  but I can easily punt the ball with my max force and kick it higher so that it only goes 30 yards before hitting the ground. with slightly more hang time.  The guys in NCAA are specialists.

It just seems to me  there are more positive things that can happen with the shorter field punt. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Quietmaninthecorner

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,949]

2 hours ago, aubaseball said:

 don’t know why teams do it anyway 

It has to be blind faith in tradition.   I imagine way back in the day the first coach to try taking the penalty was successful and won a big game.  Then, everyone jumped on the bandwagon.  It eventually became something everyone did under the assumption it is the bast strategy.  Maybe it is.   I do not know.  I just can not see the logic behind it.

[drɘxɘl 69]

Fair points.  I agree with your example also, but to add, you can likely punt within a range, call it 25-40 yards, and be comfortable in your control of height/distance.  However, if you needed to punt it 20 yards, you likely overshoot it consistently.  So the extra 5 increases your likelihood of pinning it deep.  When the punters practice this, they all have a natural distance they work from.  The one part that always baffles me is why defenses accept the penalty.  

[gr82b4au 5,568]

9 hours ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

2.  If we are determined to take the penalty,  why do we not try to draw the D off sides EVERY TIME.  If they jump 1st down, or we gain ANOTHER 5 yards added to #1 above,  and can kick the ball even higher but less distance saving the gunners another 1/2 second.  If they don't - nothing lost.   Late in the season, it could even set up a last second fake punt in the right situation.  it is a win, win,  null situation. 

That is a very good suggestion. 

[AUTime 17]

Seems like you could have a short punter

[Barnacle 9,064]

Probably depends on what the punter is most comfortable with. 

[WarTiger 3,939]

Personally, I believe the "getting extra room for the punt" is an announcer talking point and nothing more.   I know I get tired of hearing that parroted constantly with every game and I'm sure why a punter would need extra room when he's punting from the 45 yard line.   Perhaps @bigbird could shed some light on this.  Personally, I would rather the punts go into the endzone and thus, likely avoid covering a return.  Getting the "extra room" statement when you are at mid field just doesn't make any sense.     The only time "getting extra room" would matter to me is if we are backed up close to our goal line or even punting from the endzone on 4th and 6 (where the penalty yardage wouldn't give us a first down) and the defense jumps offsides.  Take the 5 yards and punt, otherwise, makes no sense.

[Hank2020 3,228]

10 hours ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

I understand the time tested theory of giving a kicker more room to punt cause  his leg is sooooo strong,  but it also adds 5 yards to the distance the gunners have to run.

2 things...

1.   Wouldn't it be more efficient to - not take the penalty-  and have the punter kick the ball HIGHER,  with less distance?  The Gunners would have 5 yards less to get to where the ball is going to land,  AND have more time to get there. In general having more time to make juke moves that take them a step or two out of the way,  and still get tot he returner as he catches the ball. (May save 1/2 to 1 second for the coverage team.   That is a long way at full speed.)

If something goes wrong,  like last Sat,  it saves our defense 5 yards.

2.  If we are determined to take the penalty,  why do we not try to draw the D off sides EVERY TIME.  If they jump 1st down, or we gain ANOTHER 5 yards added to #1 above,  and can kick the ball even higher but less distance saving the gunners another 1/2 second.  If they don't - nothing lost.   Late in the season, it could even set up a last second fake punt in the right situation.  it is a win, win,  null situation. 

 (note on #1 above )  it would be the kicker version of a short guy shooting over a tall guy when 10 feet from the rim in basketball.  the ball goes a lot higher than it goes distance.  I would assume this would be a second nature  thing and punter would gain a feel for the angle per specific yards of distance at maximum kick height.   After all, it was originally called FOOTball for a reason.

When trying to kick higher in past, I have not witnessed very good ball placement, relative to depth. It likely ended up a short or out of bounds too early kick.

[Barnacle 9,064]

1 hour ago, WarTiger said:

Personally, I believe the "getting extra room for the punt" is an announcer talking point and nothing more.   I know I get tired of hearing that parroted constantly with every game and I'm sure why a punter would need extra room when he's punting from the 45 yard line.   Perhaps @bigbird could shed some light on this.  Personally, I would rather the punts go into the endzone and thus, likely avoid covering a return.  Getting the "extra room" statement when you are at mid field just doesn't make any sense.     The only time "getting extra room" would matter to me is if we are backed up close to our goal line or even punting from the endzone on 4th and 6 (where the penalty yardage wouldn't give us a first down) and the defense jumps offsides.  Take the 5 yards and punt, otherwise, makes no sense.

I believe I heard freeze say earlier this week that both of those penalties were intentional for the purpose of giving our punter more room.

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,949]

1 minute ago, Barnacle said:

I believe I heard freeze say earlier this week that both of those penalties were intentional for the purpose of giving our punter more room.

yes.  I believe he said  2 of the 3.

[alabastertiger 624]

3 hours ago, drɘxɘl said:

Fair points.  I agree with your example also, but to add, you can likely punt within a range, call it 25-40 yards, and be comfortable in your control of height/distance.  However, if you needed to punt it 20 yards, you likely overshoot it consistently.  So the extra 5 increases your likelihood of pinning it deep.  When the punters practice this, they all have a natural distance they work from.  The one part that always baffles me is why defenses accept the penalty.  

and why not save yourself 20 seconds and just "accidentally" have a false start?

[ScotsAU 1,343]

We have a punter with a large leg. He was kicking them higher into the air, and they were still going far. Sometimes a punter having too big of a leg isn’t a good thing. Hopefully they are working on getting more height on punts moving forward. 

[DAG 34,052]

8 hours ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

Are these guy specialists or  just a powerful leg.  I mean,  punting is in their job title .

Plenty of people with job titles who are not efficient nor effective in it. This applies to sports and life. Look at Auburn’s track record of coaches or QB play. My assumption is they do it to provide for less margin of error. I could be wrong. 

[AUloggerhead 2,278]

5 hours ago, alabastertiger said:

and why not save yourself 20 seconds and just "accidentally" have a false start?

That could work.  I think it was 3 punts last game that were delay of game penalties also?  If so, than that's around a full minute or so of lost time.  Chapman is familiar with rugby-style and/or Australian rules football kicks so, kicking short & directional shouldn't be a problem for him.  

[WDE_OxPx_2010 5,324]

I know in golf there are some shots that I would love to hit from 5-10 yards further back (or vise versa). I imagine this is likely the same idea. A field goal kicker has a window you try to get to, why not a punter? If you pretty well know NOBODY fields a punt beyond the 10 yard line going in and our punters have dialed in kicks to a certain distance so sometimes the penalty of 5 yards is the difference between a dead ball inside the 10/touchback vs a return.

 

If the analytics say take the penalty to increase your odds there, I say go for it. Absolutely nothing to gain or lose in that situation.

Edited September 30, 2023 by WDE_OxPx_2010

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,949]

7 hours ago, ScotsAU said:

We have a punter with a large leg. He was kicking them higher into the air, and they were still going far. Sometimes a punter having too big of a leg isn’t a good thing. Hopefully they are working on getting more height on punts moving forward. 

It is all about angle of launch. you can kick the ball at 85* angle as hard as you can,  and it will not go nearly as far as if you kick it at 42* angle as hard as you can.     Source: Physics. 

[CCTAU 3,361]

14 hours ago, AUTime said:

Seems like you could have a short punter

I mean, I guess that would work. It’s not like they really need to see over the line anyway.

[Hank2020 3,228]

11 hours ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

It is all about angle of launch. you can kick the ball at 85* angle as hard as you can,  and it will not go nearly as far as if you kick it at 42* angle as hard as you can.     Source: Physics. 

Try kicking and controlling the angle though. Simple to say hard to do.

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,949]

25 minutes ago, Hank2020 said:

Try kicking and controlling the angle though. Simple to say hard to do.

I understand that.  But then,  what is the point of "adding more room".   If the angle is too hard to control,  how is it legitimately more controllable  at longer distance? 

If you only can kick close to  one specific angle,  there is only a small sliver of the field that taking the penalty could possibly help.  

The loss of 5 yards hurts the gunner,  actually hurts hang time,  makes an errant play even more detrimental and all else equal if the kick is not perfect.  Taking the penalty gives the opponent a free 5 yards.  The higher angle also lowers the chance that the ball will bounce into the endzone if not fielded.

When taking the penalty,  there seems to be more negative outcomes/effects compared to the 1  slightly better outcome.

I know bucking "what everyone has always done"   is hard and I expected a lot of pushback.   Like I said above I am not trying to die on this hill,  but someone needs to do a modern study on this.   It just doesn't seem logical in my layman's mind.

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Quietmaninthecorner