Biden Wants Taxpayers to Pay Student Loans

[Son of A Tiger 561]

Biden is now proposing another plan to forgive student loans. The catch is the loans will be paid by taxpayers like you and me. I have several grandchildren who have student loans so maybe I should like this plan. But in fact I have to ask why other people should have to pay their loans. Your thoughts?

Page A3 (oanow.com)

[AUDub 11,151]

8 minutes ago, Son of A Tiger said:

Biden is now proposing another plan to forgive student loans. The catch is the loans will be paid by taxpayers like you and me. I have several grandchildren who have student loans so maybe I should like this plan. But in fact I have to ask why other people should have to pay their loans. Your thoughts?

Page A3 (oanow.com)

Student loans - or at least ones of the magnitude we see today - didn’t used to be a thing, but states have shifted the burden *from* the taxpayer to the student. Funny enough it was good ol’ St. Ronnie that probably had the most to do with it.  

[CoffeeTiger 5,111]

If you'd read the actual plan, Biden is wanting to forgive mainly interest on some loans (which didn't come out of taxpayers pockets), and automatically forgiving loans of people who already qualify for forgiveness based on past programs but have never applied for it or initiated it.

[Son of A Tiger 561]

3 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

If you'd read the actual plan, Biden is wanting to forgive mainly interest on some loans (which didn't come out of taxpayers pockets), and automatically forgiving loans of people who already qualify for forgiveness based on past programs but have never applied for it or initiated it.

Where do you see the "actual" plan?"  I was just going by the article in the link.

[CoffeeTiger 5,111]

18 minutes ago, Son of A Tiger said:

Where do you see the "actual" plan?"  I was just going by the article in the link.

Here's a pretty decent outline of it: 

https://apnews.com/article/student-loan-cancellation-debt-college-forgiveness-c3ec59d4c1d89e77bc1afc6c8ded1615 

 

[Leftfield 2,604]

1 hour ago, Son of A Tiger said:

I was just going by the article in the link.

[auburnatl1 4,939]

At any level of relief I’ve always struggled with this - conceptually you’re having the 70% who didn’t go to college assist in paying those that did. It’s the reverse of the redistribution of wealth. The goal should be to get a higher % into trade schools and lower the cost of public education, not a bail out. Wrong message.

[Son of A Tiger 561]

5 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Here's a pretty decent outline of it: 

https://apnews.com/article/student-loan-cancellation-debt-college-forgiveness-c3ec59d4c1d89e77bc1afc6c8ded1615 

 

I guess it really doesn't matter since Congress and/or SCOTUS will flush it just like his last attempt.

[Shoney'sPonyBoy 338]

3 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

At any level of relief I’ve always struggled with this - conceptually you’re having the 70% who didn’t go to college assist in paying those that did. It’s the reverse of the redistribution of wealth. The goal should be to get a higher % into trade schools and lower the cost of public education, not a bail out. Wrong message.

That's a secondary or tertiary problem for me.

My primary problem is that these people took out the loans.  Why shouldn't they have to pay them back?  Why should ANYONE—college graduate or not—have to pay them back for them?

If people want to claim that the students are not mentally capable of understanding the consequences of taking out the loan, THEN WHY DO THEY STILL WANT TO KEEP GIVING THEM LOANS?  That's like declaring someone mentally incompetent to make their own decisions for themselves, then continuing to let them make their own decisions for themselves.

You can't have it both ways.  Either the people being loaned the money are capable of making that decision—in which case they should continue to be responsible for the decision—or they aren't, in which case they shouldn't be eligible to borrow in the first place.

But this is the irrational world we now live in.

 

[Shoney'sPonyBoy 338]

3 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

The goal should be to get a higher % into trade schools and lower the cost of public education...

The availability of the loans drives up the cost of the education.  It's not the only factor, but it's a big one.  Maybe the single biggest one.  Stop federally guaranteed student loans and watch the cost of higher education plummet immediately.

As for getting a higher percentage into trade schools, everyone I see who wants more tradesmen and women seem to forget that these competitive salaries that tradespeople make, they make because the labor market for those skills is balanced at a certain level of supply vs demand.  Any significant number of new competitors in that field is going to change that balance and lower the salaries.

Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but it is a thing.

Not saying you're communicating this, but I see people all the time saying, "More people should go to trade school, an electrician makes XYZ$ an hour!"  Without stopping to think that if the number of electricians increased by 40% over the next five years that electricians would no longer make XYZ$ an hour.

[auburnatl1 4,939]

5 minutes ago, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

That's a secondary or tertiary problem for me.

My primary problem is that these people took out the loans.  Why shouldn't they have to pay them back?  Why should ANYONE—college graduate or not—have to pay them back for them?

If people want to claim that the students are not mentally capable of understanding the consequences of taking out the loan, THEN WHY DO THEY STILL WANT TO KEEP GIVING THEM LOANS?  That's like declaring someone mentally incompetent to make their own decisions for themselves, then continuing to let them make their own decisions for themselves.

You can't have it both ways.  Either the people being loaned the money are capable of making that decision—in which case they should continue to be responsible for the decision—or they aren't, in which case they shouldn't be eligible to borrow in the first place.

But this is the irrational world we now live in.

 

I think mist understand the accountability argument.  However, what fuzzies it up for some is the fairness mindset (no I don’t agree with it).  Many kids parents pay for college entirely (and some pay for masters and even phd/md). Is that fair? I promise i get the life isn’t fair comeback - but thats the mindset that drives much of the forgiveness thinking.

[auburnatl1 4,939]

5 minutes ago, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

The availability of the loans drives up the cost of the education.  It's not the only factor, but it's a big one.  Maybe the single biggest one.  Stop federally guaranteed student loans and watch the cost of higher education plummet immediately.

As for getting a higher percentage into trade schools, everyone I see who wants more tradesmen and women seem to forget that these competitive salaries that tradespeople make, they make because the labor market for those skills is balanced at a certain level of supply vs demand.  Any significant number of new competitors in that field is going to change that balance and lower the salaries.

Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but it is a thing.

Not saying you're communicating this, but I see people all the time saying, "More people should go to trade school, an electrician makes XYZ$ an hour!"  Without stopping to think that if the number of electricians increased by 40% over the next five years that electricians would no longer make XYZ$ an hour.

I understand. However, a skill/trade is a solid path out of poverty and an alternative to just stopping at high school. The violent truth is regardless of $ there is a SAT minimum threshold that some aren’t able to pass and need a plan b. Plus, we all know kids who simply aren’t interested in college.

[Shoney'sPonyBoy 338]

1 minute ago, auburnatl1 said:

 Many kids parents pay for college entirely (and some pay for masters and even phd/md). Is that fair? 

I'm not sure I understand.

People say that because some people pay out of pocket and others take out loans that it isn't fair, and therefore taxpayers should pay the loans instead of the people who took out the loans?

Is that correct?

If so, then I would invite them to explain how it is more fair that someone who had no responsibility or obligation to a stranger, had no input or ability to influence that stranger as far as what school to attend (for how much money), what curriculum to study, how hard to study, how to search for employment after the degree was obtained, and how hard to work once employment was obtained, is compelled by the state to pay for that stranger's degree.

Gee, that's fair.

[Shoney'sPonyBoy 338]

Just now, auburnatl1 said:

I understand. However, a skill/trade is a solid path out of poverty and an alternative to just stopping at high school. The violent truth is regardless of $ there is a SAT minimum threshold that some aren’t able to pass and need a plan b. Plus, we all know kids who simply aren’t interested in college.

Sure.  Again, I wasn't assuming that you were missing that point.  Just stating it for the record.

[auburnatl1 4,939]

Just now, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

I'm not sure I understand.

People say that because some people pay out of pocket and others take out loans that it isn't fair, and therefore taxpayers should pay the loans instead of the people who took out the loans?

Is that correct?

If so, then I would invite them to explain how it is more fair that someone who had no responsibility or obligation to a stranger, had no input or ability to influence that stranger as far as what school to attend (for how much money), what curriculum to study, how hard to study, how to search for employment after the degree was obtained, and how hard to work once employment was obtained, is compelled by the state to pay for that stranger's degree.

Gee, that's fair.

The most maddening word in the language is “fair”. But it is at the heart of much of the debate between liberals and conservatives. Again, I disagree with the forgiveness path.

[AUDub 11,151]

3 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

At any level of relief I’ve always struggled with this - conceptually you’re having the 70% who didn’t go to college assist in paying those that did. It’s the reverse of the redistribution of wealth. The goal should be to get a higher % into trade schools and lower the cost of public education, not a bail out. Wrong message.

Trade schools are not a panacea. Ever worked in the trades? It ******* sucks. 

[Shoney'sPonyBoy 338]

Just now, auburnatl1 said:

The most maddening word in the language is “fair”. But it is at the heart of much of the debate between liberals and conservatives. Again, I disagree with the forgiveness path.

So my reading was correct?

I don't mind the word "fair" in this context.  Because it's easily demonstrated that the "fairest" solution in this context is for the people who took the loans to be the people who pay them back, and that forcing taxpayers to do so instead is even less "fair" than the (imagined) injustice of some people having more money than others to pay for school.

But I understand what you mean.  Most people learned that life wasn't "fair" somewhere around pre-school or kindergarten.  Well, when I was coming up, at least.  Seems like there are people now in adulthood who still haven't learned it.

[auburnatl1 4,939]

1 minute ago, AUDub said:

Trade schools are not a panacea. Ever worked in the trades? It ******* sucks. 

 I’m not saying trade schools are a pixie land. I’m just saying an alternative beyond high school would help many. For some it might be an associates degree. IMO we need multiple paths

[Shoney'sPonyBoy 338]

3 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Trade schools are not a panacea. Ever worked in the trades? It ******* sucks. 

He didn't say they were.  He said the opposite, in fact.

And does working in trades suck more than working as an unskilled laborer?

[AUDub 11,151]

Just now, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

And does working in trades suck more than working as an unskilled laborer?

It can. It’s toxic and there are as many dead ends as there are for an underwater basketweaving degree lol. 

[auburnatl1 4,939]

2 minutes ago, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

He didn't say they were.  He said the opposite, in fact.

And does working in trades suck more than working as an unskilled laborer?

Ps any society only improves with education.  It’s the foundation for… everything. Kindergarten all the way through.  And we’re getting dumber by the generation. When ANY presidential candidate can show a national passion and plan for fixing/transforming our full system, regardless of party, they’ll have my vote.

[AUDub 11,151]

1 minute ago, auburnatl1 said:

Ps any society only improves with education.  It’s the foundation for… everything. Kindergarten all the way through.  And we’re getting dumber by the generation. When ANY presidential candidate can show a national passion and plan for fixing/transforming our full system, regardless of party, they’ll have my vote.

We should be subsidizing that. Oh wait. 

[auburnatl1 4,939]

1 minute ago, AUDub said:

We should be subsidizing that. Oh wait. 

Respectfully, not a clue what you’re talking about. Subsidizing what?

 

[AUDub 11,151]

Just now, auburnatl1 said:

Respectfully, not a clue what you’re talking about. Subsidizing what?

 

If I could go back to the 1960s and put a boot up Ronald Reagan’s ass because he though their were too many beatniks and protesters on college campuses I very much would.

He’s very much the reason I’ll likely have little retirement savings since we’re bankrolling our kids’ educations lol.

Small government ideology is poison. 

[AUDub 11,151]

20 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

 I’m not saying trade schools are a pixie land. I’m just saying an alternative beyond high school would help many. For some it might be an associates degree. IMO we need multiple paths

You need to get the trades on board with that. The gatekeeping there is awful.