Jim Dunaway is drunk

[BamaGrad03 0]

In their own way both coaches inherited a mess. Shula may have had probation to deal with, but Coach Fran left his program LOADED with talent. It was a confusing mess there, but he had a lot of talent to work with. Tubs came into a situation where Tater Tot had run the program in the ground. Our talent level when he came in was the pits. Bowden was no recruiter, at all. Tubs had to come in and run several guys off and start over with the pitiful talent that was left. So to say that Shula had it so tough while Tubs fell into a bed of roses is totally off base.

That is patently false. Fran did not leave us loaded with talent. His last year of recruiting, he couldnt even fill the 17 scholarships we could offer. He is an awful recruiter. Instead of getting brandon cox, he got brandon AVALOS. A 5-9 option qb who couldnt throw a forward pass. And dont even get me started on spencer pennington.

Over half of the players he signed the year before either never showed up or didnt make it more than a year.

[AUloggerhead 2,253]

In their own way both coaches inherited a mess. Shula may have had probation to deal with, but Coach Fran left his program LOADED with talent. It was a confusing mess there, but he had a lot of talent to work with. Tubs came into a situation where Tater Tot had run the program in the ground. Our talent level when he came in was the pits. Bowden was no recruiter, at all. Tubs had to come in and run several guys off and start over with the pitiful talent that was left. So to say that Shula had it so tough while Tubs fell into a bed of roses is totally off base.

That is patently false. Fran did not leave us loaded with talent. His last year of recruiting, he couldnt even fill the 17 scholarships we could offer. He is an awful recruiter. Instead of getting brandon cox, he got brandon AVALOS. A 5-9 option qb who couldnt throw a forward pass. And dont even get me started on spencer pennington.

Over half of the players he signed the year before either never showed up or didnt make it more than a year.

Sounds like a cash flow/funding problem.

[GalensGhost 0]

In their own way both coaches inherited a mess. Shula may have had probation to deal with, but Coach Fran left his program LOADED with talent. It was a confusing mess there, but he had a lot of talent to work with. Tubs came into a situation where Tater Tot had run the program in the ground. Our talent level when he came in was the pits. Bowden was no recruiter, at all. Tubs had to come in and run several guys off and start over with the pitiful talent that was left. So to say that Shula had it so tough while Tubs fell into a bed of roses is totally off base.

That is patently false. Fran did not leave us loaded with talent. His last year of recruiting, he couldnt even fill the 17 scholarships we could offer. He is an awful recruiter. Instead of getting brandon cox, he got brandon AVALOS. A 5-9 option qb who couldnt throw a forward pass. And dont even get me started on spencer pennington.

Over half of the players he signed the year before either never showed up or didnt make it more than a year.

Revisionist history. Ain't it GREAT?

Who was it that knelt before the great John Croyle and performed enough acts of fealty to sway his mullet-addled progeny to switch from FSU to Alabama? Wasn't that Fran, the greatest recruiter in the history of man? I remember that day, the day Brodie spurned the 'Noles with a tear in his eye because "Deddy" had spoken. I remember the giddy dancing in the street and the high-fiving from radio jocks. Fran had proven himself to be the greatest recruiter of all time. Promised land...... here he comes!

There was a price to be paid for that. No true competition could be brought in until Croyle was a junior. That was part of the deal. Bama could sign no legitimate QBs for two years. Bet you wish Brodie had headed on to Tallahassee now.

And Bama WAS loaded with talent. FLUSH with it. By every estimation, UA had tons more talent than Auburn.

It's just been reinforced to me that there is no dealing with Bama logic. Here's a thread from a Bama board where they speculate on Shula taking over for Coker at Miami

Rampant insanity

Of course some of them also recycle the "Turbbeville is going to Miami" rumor.

[BamaGrad03 0]

And Bama WAS loaded with talent. FLUSH with it. By every estimation, UA had tons more talent than Auburn.

What? Based on what metric? Bama was not loaded with talent. Just because you choose to take the word of some redneck caller on finebaum as our official press releases, doesnt make it so.

And remember, Brodie didnt play in 2004 after the WCU game. Right when SEC play started. And he played all of 2003 with a broken rib and a seperated shoulder. Because even that banged up, he was better than our next best.

[WarTim 3,457]

Tell me this Galen...who would you rather have on your team? Demarcus Waldrop, or Tray Blackmon?

If a TRUE freshman can start over a SENIOR...what does that say about the senior you had there?

May I answer this one?

TRAY BLACKMON.....Any day of the week and twice on SATURDAY ! ! ! !

[GalensGhost 0]

And Bama WAS loaded with talent. FLUSH with it. By every estimation, UA had tons more talent than Auburn.

What? Based on what metric? Bama was not loaded with talent. Just because you choose to take the word of some redneck caller on finebaum as our official press releases, doesnt make it so.

And remember, Brodie didnt play in 2004 after the WCU game. Right when SEC play started. And he played all of 2003 with a broken rib and a seperated shoulder. Because even that banged up, he was better than our next best.

You guys made the decision to mortgage your future on a skinny kid who was hurt a lot. That paid off handsomely, I'd say.

[mcgufcm 4,107]

bg, i'll just toss in a few really big holes in your argument. and i mean huge. okay, your first statement is that you can't expect this team to replace the kind of talent it lost after probation. i disagree, but that's fine if you believe it. here's the flaw: you also say that fran left the cupboard bare. WHO RECRUITED THOSE PLAYERS IN THE NFL THEN????? come on, now! those were fran's boys unless all of them were redshirted, which they weren't. so the talent was there for shula to make a bowden-esque run if he was worth his salt as a coach. he didn't.

flaw two: the claim that you can't replace that much leadership with young players. auburn did it. jason, caddy, ronnie, danny lindsey, and jeremy ingle were all lost off the 2004 team. while you correctly pointed out that the TEAM lost 3 more games than the year before, you failed to mention that the replacements led the conference in total offense and scoring offense last year. and the those guys were:

brandon cox (first time starter and soph.)

kenny irons (first time starter, transfer, jr.)

jake slaughter (returner that got a lot more pt when ronnie left, sr.)

tim duckworth (former dt, first time starter, jr.)

joe cope (walk-on, first timer, jr.)

not exactly a group that was expected to set the world on fire, and not exactly the makings of "one of the best lines in the country" in the middle. if you need another example, look at osu replacing 8 starters from last year's defense. eight. two or three of which were first rounders. and they might be better this year.

flaw three: saying that a guy starting his career on the dline is somehow a detriment to his ability on oline. auburn recruits dlinemen with the idea that they will get moved. duckworth and grubbs both started on dline (dtackle and dend respectively). so neither of them was recruited heavily as guards. tubby openly claims that dlinemen are the best athletes in high school football so we over recruit the position and move the guys around to get them on the field.

flaw four: you relied on the star system? seriously? and on top of that, you misrepresented it. NO ONE recruited courtney taylor. he was a reach for our staff. a qb that we saw potential in and moved to wr. grubbs and duck were defensive stars. also, rod smith is the starter. not pre. and rod's a walkon. so is joe cope who you correctly say we miss at center. also, tommy trott is a freshman, jonothan palmer is a first time starter, as is king dunlap. just so we're clear.

the fact that you down wallace gilberry (one of your best defensive players) for being a "no star" is proof enough that the system is dumb. ct is just another example.

flaw five: the claim that shula got something worse than tubby. on no level is this true. think the transition to coaches at bama was bad? at least price was never your coach. auburn was still paying bowden, oliver, and tubby for like 4 years because of how pathetically that situation was handled. our coach quit in the middle of the year. no amount of hookers will trump the impact of that on team.

think the talent was down? please. we started heath evans at tailback (along with clifton robinson). ben leard (as a first year starter) at qb. we had NOTHING. we lucked into ronney daniels. then we changed our fate with a top shelf recruit (rudi) that changed the face of the team. the point is, at worst, you can say the talent at bama was on par with auburn's in 1999; it was probably much better (that was a team coming off a 10 win year).

any way you cut it, shula didn't walk into anything that was HARDER than tubby did. was it equal? i don't know. i'd argue he was better set up for an early run with a fade in the middle years, but that's just my opinion looking at the talent bama had on hand when shula showed up.

also, it's hard to call the coaching even when you guys entered last year's iron bowl with a better record and got worked. dominated. that's a poor coaching job. maybe the iron bowl is too big for him, but he's done a terrible job of winning the game. i'll take tubby every day and twice on iron bowl saturday.

that's really all. other than that, it's a great argument. i don't even disagree with you in some places. bama has an inexperienced (not young) team. no doubt. auburn's coaches have done a better job of prepping the backups. bama's coaches stuck with their starters a little more than i (and some bama fans) thought they should (most famously in the brodie non-contact injury). i think auburn does a great job of getting guys like jp and king ready to start. i guess bama hasn't done that. maybe it's because they couldn't afford to play some of those guys. i don't know.

bama wasn't expected to be a murderer's row on defense this year, and they're still solid (barring last week against oooooole miss). this team has been about what i expected, although in hindsight i kinda wish you could've pulled out the arkansas game. they're solid, but not spectacular. the difference between tubby and shula (to me) isn't the overall success of the team (i'd equate this year to our 2001 record of 7-5); the difference is their ability to win big games. you had an undefeated team last year and lost two straight against the best teams you played. tubby showed a knack for winning big ones (uga in 99 and 00, florida 01, and an iron bowl in his first two tries) that shula hasn't (florida being the only one even close).

this bama team is on target. i just don't see the kind of progress that auburn was showing in upcoming talent. next year, you replace 2 of 3 dlinemen; your best linebacker; 2 of 5 dbs. so does that open you for youth excuse next year if the defense struggles? or the lack of leadership thing? i dunno.

[AUChizad 0]

bg, i'll just toss in a few really big holes in your argument. and i mean huge. okay, your first statement is that you can't expect this team to replace the kind of talent it lost after probation. i disagree, but that's fine if you believe it. here's the flaw: you also say that fran left the cupboard bare. WHO RECRUITED THOSE PLAYERS IN THE NFL THEN????? come on, now! those were fran's boys unless all of them were redshirted, which they weren't. so the talent was there for shula to make a bowden-esque run if he was worth his salt as a coach. he didn't.

flaw two: the claim that you can't replace that much leadership with young players. auburn did it. jason, caddy, ronnie, danny lindsey, and jeremy ingle were all lost off the 2004 team. while you correctly pointed out that the TEAM lost 3 more games than the year before, you failed to mention that the replacements led the conference in total offense and scoring offense last year. and the those guys were:

brandon cox (first time starter and soph.)

kenny irons (first time starter, transfer, jr.)

jake slaughter (returner that got a lot more pt when ronnie left, sr.)

tim duckworth (former dt, first time starter, jr.)

joe cope (walk-on, first timer, jr.)

not exactly a group that was expected to set the world on fire, and not exactly the makings of "one of the best lines in the country" in the middle. if you need another example, look at osu replacing 8 starters from last year's defense. eight. two or three of which were first rounders. and they might be better this year.

flaw three: saying that a guy starting his career on the dline is somehow a detriment to his ability on oline. auburn recruits dlinemen with the idea that they will get moved. duckworth and grubbs both started on dline (dtackle and dend respectively). so neither of them was recruited heavily as guards. tubby openly claims that dlinemen are the best athletes in high school football so we over recruit the position and move the guys around to get them on the field.

flaw four: you relied on the star system? seriously? and on top of that, you misrepresented it. NO ONE recruited courtney taylor. he was a reach for our staff. a qb that we saw potential in and moved to wr. grubbs and duck were defensive stars. also, rod smith is the starter. not pre. and rod's a walkon. so is joe cope who you correctly say we miss at center. also, tommy trott is a freshman, jonothan palmer is a first time starter, as is king dunlap. just so we're clear.

the fact that you down wallace gilberry (one of your best defensive players) for being a "no star" is proof enough that the system is dumb. ct is just another example.

flaw five: the claim that shula got something worse than tubby. on no level is this true. think the transition to coaches at bama was bad? at least price was never your coach. auburn was still paying bowden, oliver, and tubby for like 4 years because of how pathetically that situation was handled. our coach quit in the middle of the year. no amount of hookers will trump the impact of that on team.

think the talent was down? please. we started heath evans at tailback (along with clifton robinson). ben leard (as a first year starter) at qb. we had NOTHING. we lucked into ronney daniels. then we changed our fate with a top shelf recruit (rudi) that changed the face of the team. the point is, at worst, you can say the talent at bama was on par with auburn's in 1999; it was probably much better (that was a team coming off a 10 win year).

any way you cut it, shula didn't walk into anything that was HARDER than tubby did. was it equal? i don't know. i'd argue he was better set up for an early run with a fade in the middle years, but that's just my opinion looking at the talent bama had on hand when shula showed up.

also, it's hard to call the coaching even when you guys entered last year's iron bowl with a better record and got worked. dominated. that's a poor coaching job. maybe the iron bowl is too big for him, but he's done a terrible job of winning the game. i'll take tubby every day and twice on iron bowl saturday.

that's really all. other than that, it's a great argument. i don't even disagree with you in some places. bama has an inexperienced (not young) team. no doubt. auburn's coaches have done a better job of prepping the backups. bama's coaches stuck with their starters a little more than i (and some bama fans) thought they should (most famously in the brodie non-contact injury). i think auburn does a great job of getting guys like jp and king ready to start. i guess bama hasn't done that. maybe it's because they couldn't afford to play some of those guys. i don't know.

bama wasn't expected to be a murderer's row on defense this year, and they're still solid (barring last week against oooooole miss). this team has been about what i expected, although in hindsight i kinda wish you could've pulled out the arkansas game. they're solid, but not spectacular. the difference between tubby and shula (to me) isn't the overall success of the team (i'd equate this year to our 2001 record of 7-5); the difference is their ability to win big games. you had an undefeated team last year and lost two straight against the best teams you played. tubby showed a knack for winning big ones (uga in 99 and 00, florida 01, and an iron bowl in his first two tries) that shula hasn't (florida being the only one even close).

this bama team is on target. i just don't see the kind of progress that auburn was showing in upcoming talent. next year, you replace 2 of 3 dlinemen; your best linebacker; 2 of 5 dbs. so does that open you for youth excuse next year if the defense struggles? or the lack of leadership thing? i dunno.

BG and any other Bammers: Please disregard everything you just read. Shula's doing a great job. He needs at least 10 more years to really get the ball rolling to prove that he's the next Bear.

[BamaGrad03 0]

To further illustrate my point:

According to ESPN.com we have 75 freshmen on our roster (this includes redshirts and walkons) the next closest is 59. We rank 11th in the SEC with 16 seniors. 12th is Vandy with 10.

Franchione recruited the 2001 class under the constant threat of an impending NCAA investigation and signed the 2002 recruiting class in the face of devastating NCAA sanctions. Sanctions, I might add, that were announced the exact same week as national signing day (February 1, 2002).

The 2002 recruiting class was ranked 10th in the SEC, 37th overall, and was severely limited due to scholarship reductions imposed by the NCAA with a bowl ban on top of that. These players represent the only redshirt seniors on the entire team. Of the 19 we signed, only 6 are still at Alabama with four of them currently starting (K Darby, Bino, J Simpson, J Clark).

The 2003 recruiting class was also ranked 10th in the SEC, 45th overall, and was also limited by scholarship reductions and the final year of a bowl ban. On top of that, the coach that signed those players wasn't signed until December, so he had no time to save a dismal recruiting class. These players represent the only true seniors and redshirt juniors on the team. Of the 17 we signed in that very margianally talented group, we currently have 5 starters (L McClain, T Jones, C Capps, D Lee). Wallace Gilberry was signed as part of the 2003 class in late June as Coach Shula's first recruit. Putting those last two thoughts into proper perspective, all of our redshirt juniors and seniors were part of the worst recruiting classes during the height of NCAA sanctions. We had a few gems, but the overall level of talent is as expected considering the circumstances.

We have 13 on the two deep from Shula's first class in 04. Compared to 14 from the 02 and 03 classes combined.

So shula inherited a team that had 2 classes of 10th best in the SEC recruiting. And if he doesnt win 11 every year...he sucks and we suck?

[GalensGhost 0]

To further illustrate my point:

According to ESPN.com we have 75 freshmen on our roster (this includes redshirts and walkons) the next closest is 59. We rank 11th in the SEC with 16 seniors. 12th is Vandy with 10.

Franchione recruited the 2001 class under the constant threat of an impending NCAA investigation and signed the 2002 recruiting class in the face of devastating NCAA sanctions. Sanctions, I might add, that were announced the exact same week as national signing day (February 1, 2002).

The 2002 recruiting class was ranked 10th in the SEC, 37th overall, and was severely limited due to scholarship reductions imposed by the NCAA with a bowl ban on top of that. These players represent the only redshirt seniors on the entire team. Of the 19 we signed, only 6 are still at Alabama with four of them currently starting (K Darby, Bino, J Simpson, J Clark).

The 2003 recruiting class was also ranked 10th in the SEC, 45th overall, and was also limited by scholarship reductions and the final year of a bowl ban. On top of that, the coach that signed those players wasn't signed until December, so he had no time to save a dismal recruiting class. These players represent the only true seniors and redshirt juniors on the team. Of the 17 we signed in that very margianally talented group, we currently have 5 starters (L McClain, T Jones, C Capps, D Lee). Wallace Gilberry was signed as part of the 2003 class in late June as Coach Shula's first recruit. Putting those last two thoughts into proper perspective, all of our redshirt juniors and seniors were part of the worst recruiting classes during the height of NCAA sanctions. We had a few gems, but the overall level of talent is as expected considering the circumstances.

We have 13 on the two deep from Shula's first class in 04. Compared to 14 from the 02 and 03 classes combined.

So shula inherited a team that had 2 classes of 10th best in the SEC recruiting. And if he doesnt win 11 every year...he sucks and we suck?

No, Shula is great. He's friggin' awesome. You're lucky to have him and I hope he's there for years and years to come.

shhhhh... do you think he bought it?

[autiger6 0]

Not to mention Tubbs has replaced the defensive and offensive coaches numerous times during his tenure. Shula just coaches with no emotion except for the occassional F bombs. Tubb inherited a worser program if you ask me. Gabe Gross and Jeff Klien weren't your ideal qb's either. Leard was the bright spot. At Rb we had basically Cooper and Rusty Williams.

[BamaGrad03 0]

Tubb inherited a worser program if you ask me.

I'm no grammar nazi. But worser...really?

[Guest BoStillKnows]

QUOTE(BamaGrad03 @ Oct 16 2006, 10:00 PM)

Tell me this Galen...who would you rather have on your team? Demarcus Waldrop, or Tray Blackmon?

If a TRUE freshman can start over a SENIOR...what does that say about the senior you had there?

Who is Demarcus Waldrop?

[autiger6 0]

It should have read ...much worser...

So are you questioning if worser is a legit word? Look it up it is in the dictionary. I am no grammer major for certain.

[BamaGrad03 0]

'Worse' is the modifier you were looking for

Just givin ya a hard time my friend.

[BamaGrad03 0]

Who is Demarcus Waldrop?

He's the guy getting most of the reps at SAM LB since Jones has been hurt most of the season. Him and Freshman Zach Schreiber

[Guest BoStillKnows]

QUOTE(BoStillKnows @ Oct 17 2006, 08:07 PM)

Who is Demarcus Waldrop?

He's the guy getting most of the reps at SAM LB since Jones has been hurt most of the season. Him and Freshman Zach Schreiber

I assume these guys are playing for Alabama. I guess I am not keeping up with them very well. Is Waldrop supposed to be good? I have never heard of him.

[eagle76 1]

Him and Freshman Zach Schreiber

I'm not a grammar nazi either but shouldn't it be "He and Freshman Zach Schreiber"? Just wondering.

[AUloggerhead 2,253]

Him and Freshman Zach Schreiber

I'm not a grammar nazi either but shouln't it be "He and Freshman Zach Schreiber"? Just wondering.

"Him and Freshman Zach Schreiber" is worster, grammar-wise, than using "worser."

[mcgufcm 4,107]

his point is that waldrop (a jr. i think) is not as good as tray (a frosh). it's his way of validating the recruiting rating system i think. but he still hasn't actually explained the success of guys like wallace gilberry, courtney taylor, joe cope, or all those nfl players from the "10th ranked recruiting class in the sec from 2002." seriously, the fact that you honestly think some of the big dogs in the sec wouldn't, in hindsight, trade for your class which i believe included: ken darby, juwan simpson, jeremie clark, brodie croyle, roman harper, freddie roach, meco collier, and anthony madison... maybe more. who gives a crap what the recruiting services said, that class was loaded.

i never said bama sucks (although i believe that's true for the whole institution ). i said shula inherited a team that was ready to win and win now. you're talking about the 01 and 02 classes, but the guys that were leaders when shula arrived were the 98, 99, and 00 classes. those were your rs. seniors, seniors, rs. juniors, juniors, and sophs. those were the guys with experience, and those groups were talented (one was built off an sec championship season). i'm saying it is a poor reflection no shula that he was capable of winning early with those players. it's not like they were losers (see: 10 wins the year before he came).

the dip that's coming now (and next year i might add) where you're a solid 6-8 win team was really predictable. why? because all the full classes are gone now. you're going to play a lot of young guys and a lot of par level upperclassmen. that's what happens when you cheat. auburn did that too in the mid-90s. the difference was tater tot (poor recruiter that he was) could coach his butt off on gameday, and the talent on hand won and won big. shula's inability to do that lets me know he's a long way from good on gameday.

[BamaGrad03 0]

The class wasnt loaded. SOMEBODY had to coach those guys into NFL caliber players. If they were WALK ONS (see Roman Harper and anthony madison) that means they werent great coming out of high school.

Recruiting services are pretty accurate. Sure they miss a Courtney Taylor (3 star on rivals) or a Roman Harper...but for the most part, there is a direct correlation with top 5-10 classes and top 5-10 teams. Otherwise, Ball St would be winning. You cant argue that.

So do our coaches not get any credit for having a guy like Roman come in as a walkon...ready to play in the NFL? What about Demeco? If his only other offer was UAB...and he turns into a superstar...is that ALL on him? But when JPW overthrows a guy by 15 yards its ALL on the coaches?

The 98,99,00 classes were good on paper...but hardly any of those guys ended up making it on campus or finishing out their career.

[WarTim 3,457]

uat "football"? WHO cares?

[abrnfanatc 6]

This thread is much worser than the irrelevant thread of the day if you ask me.

[JohnDeere 0]

Who is Demarcus Waldrop?

He's the guy getting most of the reps at SAM LB since Jones has been hurt most of the season. Him and Freshman Zach Schreiber

I would image most folks on this site haven't been able to catch the two games UAT has been on TV, so we really wouldn't know who UAT lines up at LB besides Mary Jane Simpson.