Are you really better off?

[GalensGhost 0]

This is to my Bama fan friends.

Other than some nebulous "going in the right direction" feel-good sense of self-worth, I'd seriously like for you to explain to me exactly how you're better off now than you were with Mike Shula at the helm. You're certainly poorer.

Two years ago, the schedule stacked up fairly evenly with this season's. Swap Georgia for Florida and you've got about the same thing. That year you whipped up on Urban Meyer and Florida. This season you beat the tar out of Tennessee. Two big wins that weren't real indicators of the status of the program. Two years ago you went to the wire to beat Ole Miss. You took a very good LSU team to overtime. Wow. Same story in 2007. But that 2005 season, with talent that certainly can't be considered vastly superior to what you have now, the team won close games and put together a solid 10-win season and finished in the top ten. Did Shula outcoach Saban?

[quietfan 233]

Other than some nebulous "going in the right direction" feel-good sense of self-worth, I'd seriously like for you to explain to me exactly how you're better off now than you were with Mike Shula at the helm.

Much as I hate to say it, since I loathe St. Nick, I'm not so sure this is such a "nebulous" thing. While on paper there doesn't see to be much of a change, there is a 180-degree change in confidence (or at least there was until Saturday). The Sabanites generally think they can win going into games now--I think they had pretty much lost all confidence in Shula. Confidence is an intangable, but it is also very contagious and powerful.

I think reality is beginning to shake some of that confidence since Saturday, but we'll have to see. An Iron Bowl and/or post-season bowl loss will shake it further, and dissent will grow. Nick may begin to realize that the hooneymoon is over and he needs friends and good press.

[Of course, thanks to the mercy of God, I'm not a "Bama fan" friend, so maybe I'm answering out of turn... ]

[smokies 0]

what year is Tuberville in now? ninth or tenth? Over those years how many coaching changes have we endured? how many years of probation? yet here we are, Alabama and Auburn on pretty much the same level, beating and also losing to the same opponents, our records will be exactly the same heading into the iron bowl, what was AU's record last year compared to Bama's? We haven't been blown out this season and have one of the top recruiting classes in the nation, so yeah I'd say we're better off

[GalensGhost 0]

what year is Tuberville in now? ninth or tenth? Over those years how many coaching changes have we endured? how many years of probation? yet here we are, Alabama and Auburn on pretty much the same level, beating and also losing to the same opponents, our records will be exactly the same heading into the iron bowl, what was AU's record last year compared to Bama's? We haven't been blown out this season and have one of the top recruiting classes in the nation, so yeah I'd say we're better off

Thank you for the strawman. I have no interest in kicking the stuffing out of it.

The question was NOT whether Alabama and Auburn were in the same place, but what exactly has Nick Saban done that Mike Shula was unable to do. I don't recall any blowouts under Shula that Saban could have prevented.

I assume your answer is nothing since you immediately threw up the "Yeah, but Auburn..." strawman patented by BG.

[WarTiger 3,924]

what year is Tuberville in now? ninth or tenth? Over those years how many coaching changes have we endured? how many years of probation? yet here we are, Alabama and Auburn on pretty much the same level, beating and also losing to the same opponents, our records will be exactly the same heading into the iron bowl, what was AU's record last year compared to Bama's? We haven't been blown out this season and have one of the top recruiting classes in the nation, so yeah I'd say we're better off

Thank you for the strawman. I have no interest in kicking the stuffing out of it.

The question was NOT whether Alabama and Auburn were in the same place, but what exactly has Nick Saban done that Mike Shula was unable to do.

I assume your answer is nothing since you immediately threw up the "Yeah, but Auburn..." strawman patented by BG.

seems what we have here is patent infringement. Only question is, did BG give his written consent for this to be used? Ruling and possible punishment??

[bamaphan 0]

Saban has brought us a few 4th quarter comebacks which Shula was unable to do.

[bamaphan 0]

2005 Roster > 2007 Roster on Defense for sure. The O had issues then and still has issues now. But with the D we were able to win games such as the MSU game.

[AuburnChopper1 0]

what year is Tuberville in now? ninth or tenth? Over those years how many coaching changes have we endured? how many years of probation? yet here we are, Alabama and Auburn on pretty much the same level, beating and also losing to the same opponents, our records will be exactly the same heading into the iron bowl, what was AU's record last year compared to Bama's? We haven't been blown out this season and have one of the top recruiting classes in the nation, so yeah I'd say we're better off

Thank you for the strawman. I have no interest in kicking the stuffing out of it.

The question was NOT whether Alabama and Auburn were in the same place, but what exactly has Nick Saban done that Mike Shula was unable to do.

I assume your answer is nothing since you immediately threw up the "Yeah, but Auburn..." strawman patented by BG.

seems what we have here is patent infringement. Only question is, did BG give his written consent for this to be used? Ruling and possible punishment??

His punishment will be having to bob and weave with us as BG, and his toady RWS, take us on a wild ride of tangents and cliff dives in an effort to blow up Galens question...once he sees it. Then Argo will come in and do his hit and run style responses. This should be a very interesting thread in response to what is an honest, and good question.

[bamaphan 0]

I'd seriously like for you to explain to me exactly how you're better off now than you were with Mike Shula at the helm.

You discount the nebulous things as if they don't matter. Who would you rather have leading your team moving forward Shula or Saban?

Has Saban came out and set the world on fire? No. Although he did manage to win two games that most folks probably did not give us a chance to win back in early August and lost one he probably should not of. All in all our season looks to be turning out the way most predicted.

You ask the question but then shoot down any possible answer by classifying it as "nebulous" knowing we have nothing to really fall back on due to results on the field.

We can come back with recruiting but you would give us " it does not count til February line" or say that is "nebulous".

So basically you asked one long rhetorical question.

[AuburnChopper1 0]

knowing we have nothing to really fall back on due to results on the field.

Whelp...that took care of that. Didn't think we'd hear it so quickly...

[bamaphan 0]

knowing we have nothing to really fall back on due to results on the field.

Whelp...that took care of that. Didn't think we'd hear it so quickly...

he got to that answer my classifying everything else as "nebulous".

Only a moron or Don Shula would rather have their FB program being led by Mike Shula over Nick Saban and if you think we are not better off you need to take off the orange and blue glasses.

What if Alabama beats Auburn are we then allowed to say we are better off? Even if we do lose to AU we are better off and in your heart of hearts you know it is true.

[Argo 8]

This is to my Bama fan friends.

Other than some nebulous "going in the right direction" feel-good sense of self-worth, I'd seriously like for you to explain to me exactly how you're better off now than you were with Mike Shula at the helm. You're certainly poorer.

Two years ago, the schedule stacked up fairly evenly with this season's. Swap Georgia for Florida and you've got about the same thing. That year you whipped up on Urban Meyer and Florida. This season you beat the tar out of Tennessee. Two big wins that weren't real indicators of the status of the program. Two years ago you went to the wire to beat Ole Miss. You took a very good LSU team to overtime. Wow. Same story in 2007. But that 2005 season, with talent that certainly can't be considered vastly superior to what you have now, the team won close games and put together a solid 10-win season and finished in the top ten. Did Shula outcoach Saban?

2005 certainly can't be considered vastly superior to what we have now? Are you kidding? Where is Meco Ryans now? What about Roman Harper? Mark Anderson? They were seniors on that '05 unit. Meco was defensive NFL rookie of the year, followed by Mark Anderson with the Chicago Bears. I believe Anderson finished with over 10 sacks his rookie year. Harper had won the starting FS job at NO before he tore his ACL. I don't keep up with the NFL very much but last I heard Harper is still the starting FS for the Saints.

That's three NFL starters on defense from the '05 unit. This year, on defense, our starting NT is a freshman converted offensive lineman.(Brian Motley) We have a previous walk-on transfer from Middle Tennessee State starting at one of the linebacker spots.(Darrin Mustin) We have another walk-on starting at FS.(Rashad Johnson)

Our talent on defense in '05 was far superior to this years talent. Talent is all the difference. If you really want to compare the talent on each team we can do so.

You do realize you are comparing Shula's only winning season in 4 years to Saban's first year on the job? That's a bit outlandish. Bama is much better off with Saban than with Shula.

[Argo 8]

Then Argo will come in and do his hit and run style responses.

As opposed to saying "I have no more time to waste with this thread" before posting 10-15 more times on it? How about "I'm through with you BG because I have an important job and don't have time for this anymore" Yeah. That worked out well.

Don't concern yourself with responding. I've already seen all you have.

[AUdaREALsecTigers 2]

This is to my Bama fan friends.

Other than some nebulous "going in the right direction" feel-good sense of self-worth, I'd seriously like for you to explain to me exactly how you're better off now than you were with Mike Shula at the helm. You're certainly poorer.

Two years ago, the schedule stacked up fairly evenly with this season's. Swap Georgia for Florida and you've got about the same thing. That year you whipped up on Urban Meyer and Florida. This season you beat the tar out of Tennessee. Two big wins that weren't real indicators of the status of the program. Two years ago you went to the wire to beat Ole Miss. You took a very good LSU team to overtime. Wow. Same story in 2007. But that 2005 season, with talent that certainly can't be considered vastly superior to what you have now, the team won close games and put together a solid 10-win season and finished in the top ten. Did Shula outcoach Saban?

I've wondered this also. Shula recruited "lights out" and Saban and Co. seem to be doing well also. Shula had to deal with the stigma of a program on probation while Saban has enjoyed constant hype from the media.

The one thing that bama fans across the board have said is the players seem to have a different mind-set, don't quit and expect to win. Seems to me it would have been cheaper to keep shula and hire a motivational speaker.

[WinCrimson 61]

Let's see. In 2005, we only had a quarterback who will be starting against the Colts this Sunday (save your criticism, as he's lasted two years), the NFL Defensive ROTY in DeMeco Ryans, a guy who finished second in the NFL Defensive ROTY voting in Mark Anderson, NY Giant Charlie Peprah, and NO Saint Roman Harper. All of these guys were recruited, signed, and redshirted by Franchione, who did a decent job on the recruiting trails considering the circumstances. The redshirts he granted them in '01, allowed them to be seasoned players in 2005. Even I couldn't screw up a DeMeco Ryans.

JB Closner is far more talented center than Even Cardwell. Ken Darby, the 2005 version, is light years ahead of Terry Grant and Glen Coffee. What about Baltimore Raven LeRon McClain at fullback? Some guy named Prothro was a receiver and Tim Castille was also in the backfield.

Even the guys who didn't go on to have pro careers were much better players. In addition to having Simeon Castille, we also had Anthony Madison and Ramzee Robinson in the secondary -- guys who had two more cups of coffee in the NFL than Lionel Mitchell and Marcus Carter will ever be offered. Prince Hall didn't exactly fill the shoes of Freddie Roach, either.

Alabama of 2005 would punk 2007, and it has nothing to do with coaching. What it involves is talent. The 2005 team, while not being world beaters by any stretch of the imagination, was obviously a more talented squad as evidenced by the homes and cars some of its members now own. Hell, we've got a return specialist and former runningback logging some serious playing time in our secondary, despite having zero college experience at the position.

What seniors would be drafted off this team if the NFL draft was tomorrow? Hall, yet, he was a member of '05, too. Simeon could be a late-round guy. Who else? Even if a scout were to stub his toe by drafting a Gilberry or Brown, it's obvious that this season's team doesn't hold a candle to 2005, on either side of the ball.

In closing, the "feel good" feeling is not nebulous in any way. I've seen the strides this program has taken, both on and off the field. I can also see the job our staff is doing in bringing in new talent and getting the most, although it may not seem like much, out of the mess Shula left them to clean up. When we ink the nation's #1 class and it's best player, come tell me that firing Shula wasn't worth it. By 2009, you'll have no argument whatsoever.

Were you better going 5-6 in 1999 with Tuberville than 10-3 with Bowden in 1997? You know, same schedule and all...

[BamaGrad03 0]

Wincrimson you made an error. Bino Robinson was drafted and given a contract with the Lions. Madision plays for the steelers and started a few games for them last year

But to answer your question Galen, the big indicator will be if we go 6-7 next year.

I'm happy with what we've shown this season. We've lost 4 games, 1 of which we had no business losing. But we've also yet to lose a game by more than one score. And I honestly feel we are a better team than MSU or FSU.

Considering our talent level and the fact that we are playing without 5 starters who are suspended, I'm happy so far.

If we go 6-7 next year like Mike Shula followed his 10-3 season, then I'll be sorely dissapointed.

If you can't see the differences in a Saban coached team and a Shula coached team, then you aren't looking.

Also, if you want to compare, why not compare this team with Shula's first team (4-9)...that arguably had more talent on it...

[FootballFanatic 4]

If I had a choice of Shula or Saban I would pick neither.

Shula was a nice guy and a good QB coach. Saban is a total asshat and has no respect for anyone. I would rather another choice.

[runswithscissors 33]

you guys spent all off-season beating it into our heads that the first year of our new coaching staff was going to be a bad one. now that it's shaping up to be decent, we get the big question of "are we better off" and comparing CMS' next to last year of coaching to CNS' first year. would you guys be thrilled if AU announced tomorrow that CMS would be your new head coach, and he was bringing Rader as his OC? just the fact that you guys begged us to keep CMS around tells me how bad of a coach he is. now, i will give him this: he can develop a QB quite well. he might be a good assistant coach, but he is just not head coach material. i'm happy with where we are this season. albeit, we have lost to a team or two that we shouldn't have. i will also be pretty disappointed if we bomb next year. VERY disappointed actually. as someone else in the thread pointed out, the original question was pretty much rhetorical.

[JohnDeere 0]

2005 70 scholarships (Div1AA Teams have 65) UAT is glorified D1AA program, 10 win season, Cotton Bowl victory

2007 85 scholarships (Saban has signed a 'full' class), UAT is again a D1 program. 10 wins?

If Saban, can't pull 10 wins out of this season or 10 out in 2008, 2009 will be 'hotseat' year.

[FootballFanatic 4]

you guys spent all off-season beating it into our heads that the first year of our new coaching staff was going to be a bad one. now that it's shaping up to be decent, we get the big question of "are we better off" and comparing CMS' next to last year of coaching to CNS' first year. would you guys be thrilled if AU announced tomorrow that CMS would be your new head coach, and he was bringing Rader as his OC? just the fact that you guys begged us to keep CMS around tells me how bad of a coach he is. now, i will give him this: he can develop a QB quite well. he might be a good assistant coach, but he is just not head coach material. i'm happy with where we are this season. albeit, we have lost to a team or two that we shouldn't have. i will also be pretty disappointed if we bomb next year. VERY disappointed actually. as someone else in the thread pointed out, the original question was pretty much rhetorical.

You consider a current 7-4 record with losses identical to Shula's regime to be a good season?

[runswithscissors 33]

you guys spent all off-season beating it into our heads that the first year of our new coaching staff was going to be a bad one. now that it's shaping up to be decent, we get the big question of "are we better off" and comparing CMS' next to last year of coaching to CNS' first year. would you guys be thrilled if AU announced tomorrow that CMS would be your new head coach, and he was bringing Rader as his OC? just the fact that you guys begged us to keep CMS around tells me how bad of a coach he is. now, i will give him this: he can develop a QB quite well. he might be a good assistant coach, but he is just not head coach material. i'm happy with where we are this season. albeit, we have lost to a team or two that we shouldn't have. i will also be pretty disappointed if we bomb next year. VERY disappointed actually. as someone else in the thread pointed out, the original question was pretty much rhetorical.

You consider a current 7-4 record with losses identical to Shula's regime to be a good season?

CMS was 4-9 his first season. he only had one season over .500. i said before the season began that i expected a 7-5 year (we're 6-4; should beat UL-Monroe, will probably lose to AU) so that looks to be on track, 8-4 at the very most, anything more and i would crap my pants. why is it you guys have been telling us to not have lofty expectations, then when we don't, you ask if we're pissed because basically we aren't 9-3 or something? as i said before the season started......it isn't going to happen overnight. coaches in their first year at a school generally get a pass the first year. ask this question again at this point next year and we will see.

[GalensGhost 0]

you guys spent all off-season beating it into our heads that the first year of our new coaching staff was going to be a bad one. now that it's shaping up to be decent, we get the big question of "are we better off" and comparing CMS' next to last year of coaching to CNS' first year. would you guys be thrilled if AU announced tomorrow that CMS would be your new head coach, and he was bringing Rader as his OC? just the fact that you guys begged us to keep CMS around tells me how bad of a coach he is. now, i will give him this: he can develop a QB quite well. he might be a good assistant coach, but he is just not head coach material. i'm happy with where we are this season. albeit, we have lost to a team or two that we shouldn't have. i will also be pretty disappointed if we bomb next year. VERY disappointed actually. as someone else in the thread pointed out, the original question was pretty much rhetorical.

You consider a current 7-4 record with losses identical to Shula's regime to be a good season?

CMS was 4-9 his first season. he only had one season over .500. i said before the season began that i expected a 7-5 year (we're 6-4; should beat UL-Monroe, will probably lose to AU) so that looks to be on track, 8-4 at the very most, anything more and i would crap my pants. why is it you guys have been telling us to not have lofty expectations, then when we don't, you ask if we're pissed because basically we aren't 9-3 or something? as i said before the season started......it isn't going to happen overnight. coaches in their first year at a school generally get a pass the first year. ask this question again at this point next year and we will see.

You can't use first year vs. first year. That's ludicrious. Need I rewind the tape and play the litany of excuses justifications for Shula's limited first year success? Short prep time. No spring training. Installing new offensive and defensive schemes in a month. Not his players. All the turmoil. Strippers. Champagne.

It's not far-fetched to consider 2005 vs. 2007. The schedules stack up almost exactly the same. It was Shula's third season on the job, giving him the benefit of the doubt for his first two years of learning the process. Saban is supposedly an experienced coach.

Which one of the games this season do you suppose Saban's coaching won where Shula would have lost? I can't think of any. So my question is, was Shula really doing about as well as can be expected given the situation? Saban certainly isn't doing any better....

[runswithscissors 33]

you guys spent all off-season beating it into our heads that the first year of our new coaching staff was going to be a bad one. now that it's shaping up to be decent, we get the big question of "are we better off" and comparing CMS' next to last year of coaching to CNS' first year. would you guys be thrilled if AU announced tomorrow that CMS would be your new head coach, and he was bringing Rader as his OC? just the fact that you guys begged us to keep CMS around tells me how bad of a coach he is. now, i will give him this: he can develop a QB quite well. he might be a good assistant coach, but he is just not head coach material. i'm happy with where we are this season. albeit, we have lost to a team or two that we shouldn't have. i will also be pretty disappointed if we bomb next year. VERY disappointed actually. as someone else in the thread pointed out, the original question was pretty much rhetorical.

You consider a current 7-4 record with losses identical to Shula's regime to be a good season?

CMS was 4-9 his first season. he only had one season over .500. i said before the season began that i expected a 7-5 year (we're 6-4; should beat UL-Monroe, will probably lose to AU) so that looks to be on track, 8-4 at the very most, anything more and i would crap my pants. why is it you guys have been telling us to not have lofty expectations, then when we don't, you ask if we're pissed because basically we aren't 9-3 or something? as i said before the season started......it isn't going to happen overnight. coaches in their first year at a school generally get a pass the first year. ask this question again at this point next year and we will see.

You can't use first year vs. first year. That's ludicrious. Need I rewind the tape and play the litany of excuses justifications for Shula's limited first year success? Short prep time. No spring training. Installing new offensive and defensive schemes in a month. Not his players. All the turmoil. Strippers. Champagne.

It's not far-fetched to consider 2005 vs. 2007. The schedules stack up almost exactly the same. It was Shula's third season on the job, giving him the benefit of the doubt for his first two years of learning the process. Saban is supposedly an experienced coach.

Which one of the games this season do you suppose Saban's coaching won where Shula would have lost? I can't think of any. So my question is, was Shula really doing about as well as can be expected given the situation? Saban certainly isn't doing any better....

with the guys CMS had on the 05 defense, i'm not shocked he won 10. a blind squirrel will find a nut once in a while. we're starting true freshmen on this year's team on both sides of the ball, running a MUCH more complicated defense, and not sure about how hard the offense is to learn. but you can't tell me the talent is about the same, you and i both know it is not true.

[WinCrimson 61]

Wincrimson you made an error. Bino Robinson was drafted and given a contract with the Lions. Madision plays for the steelers and started a few games for them last year

I knew Bino was drafted, but didn't know if he or Madison were still on rosters.

Either way, Saban would welcome both of them with open arms considering what he has now.

As for Galen's question on what games did Saban win for us this season? I think we would have stood a damn good chance of losing to Arkansas, Houston, and Ole Miss had Shula been on our sidelines. I highly doubt Tennessee would have been gripping their ankles, either.

[smokies 0]

Were you better going 5-6 in 1999 with Tuberville than 10-3 with Bowden in 1997? You know, same schedule and all...