Is it time for a serious conversation about Gun Control?

[RunInRed 16,487]

1 minute ago, aubearcat said:

Red, the described destruction in that post seem to be overblown and false. While I suppose an AR could inflict that kind of damage, I don’t think a .223 round could blow a head or arm off.

We use a .223 red-tip round on patrol because it won’t over penetrate. The damage described in your post sounds more like an AK or SKS.  I do think a reasonable solution has to be made about firearms in America. There are several weapon platforms that are sold to the public that shouldn’t be. 

I'm more concerned with the quantity of output these weapons produce but cede your point.

[McLoofus 35,182]

11 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

Cold and stupid comment 

It's a perfectly valid comment. 

[Barnacle 9,064]

4 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

It's a perfectly valid comment. 

It's good satire, I'll say that.

[McLoofus 35,182]

10 hours ago, Proud Tiger said:

1. Get liberal hypocritical Hollywood to stop making so many guns blazing movies frequently by so many young people.

Asinine descriptors aside, you make a good point. Our country is fundamentally flawed in its guiding sense of morality. Janet Jackson's nipple- symbolically and literally the fountain of life for human beings- was more offensive than graphic depictions of murder. One time I watched the beginning of one of those uber-popular courtroom procedurals- we're talking prime time, when most kids are still very much awake- and the opening shot was of a murdered little girl's ankles with her underwear around them. That was okay to show at 9:00 PM but a nipple wasn't?

Not sure how much the two can be associated, but I'd love it if someone were to look into it. I know that my childhood kill-the-Russians fantasies were a lot more vivid after watching Red Dawn.

[McLoofus 35,182]

4 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

It's good satire, I'll say that.

Unsurprisingly, yours is a better way of making that point. 

[Barnacle 9,064]

36 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Unsurprisingly, yours is a better way of making that point. 

For pro-lifers, the two issues should strike similar chords. If abortion paints a dim picture of our society's value for human life, then so should school/mass shootings, etc.

Sure, there are mental health issues present - I don't think anyone on either side of the gun debate denies that. To me, these shootings are a consequence of our modern, materialist society. 

To quote one of my favorite movies: 

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy s*** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off."

We (as a society) forsook the traditional means by which we find purpose in our lives (family, community, even religion/absolute truth) for individual gain, wealth, pleasure and truth a long time ago. Granted, I'm painting with broad strokes here. There is a lot of compassion in this world. There is a lot of solidarity and charity and community. But, all you need to do is turn on the TV or flip through a magazine to see what our society values. Heck, we just elected a reality TV star whose entire persona was built upon an image of wealth, and success. During one episode of The Apprentice, the contestants toured his Manhattan Penthouse. In his bathroom, he had a GOLD TOILET. A f*****g GOLD TOILET. Something to strive for, right?

Chances are, no one stopped to talk to this kid. Likely, few people took sincere interest in him. He wasn't fitting into the mold, and he probably just got overlooked and labeled a "bad" kid with behavioral issues. Probably a lost cause. Apparently kids joked that he would do something like this. Its not like people didn't notice. Nothing to see here, moving along! Mental health problems? I'm sure he had mental health problems, but I promise you that kid has experienced a lot of neglect - and probably because his parents, or his teachers, or his peers were more concerned about their own pursuits than his well-being. I know I'm speculating. 

Anyway, I'm all for good gun-reform - but we all need to assume some level of personal responsibility for how we participate in our society, how we interact with others, how we treat our children, what we teach our children, etc. Gun reform may mitigate against the scope of these incidents, but each of us needs to be taking a long look in the mirror. Those are my thoughts. 

End rant. 

[AUFAN78 3,926]

19 hours ago, AUDub said:

Member of a white nationalist militia.

 

http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/02/15/florida-school-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-member-white-nationalist-militia-tallahassee-leader-say/341751002/

[AUDub 11,184]

Kind of strange that these militias would start claiming credit in the vein of ISIL, but I suppose anything is possible. 

[Barnacle 9,064]

3 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/02/15/florida-school-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-member-white-nationalist-militia-tallahassee-leader-say/341751002/

W.....T.....F....

[SaturdayGT 719]

27 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Asinine descriptors aside, you make a good point. Our country is fundamentally flawed in its guiding sense of morality. Janet Jackson's nipple- symbolically and literally the fountain of life for human beings- was more offensive than graphic depictions of murder. One time I watched the beginning of one of those uber-popular courtroom procedurals- we're talking prime time, when most kids are still very much awake- and the opening shot was of a murdered little girl's ankles with her underwear around them. That was okay to show at 9:00 PM but a nipple wasn't?

Not sure how much the two can be associated, but I'd love it if someone were to look into it. I know that my childhood kill-the-Russians fantasies were a lot more vivid after watching Red Dawn.

  Ya know, Ive come to change my stance a lot on the violence that is promoted in video games and TV and such. Its easy to consciously write it off as no big deal, but who knows how it it effects the subconscious of some that may be a little off. ...Im not ready to hang my hat on that and say thats whats going on, but I can no longer write it off anymore.

  Personally, what I think the biggest culprit in all of this is  are some of the prescription drugs they use to treat depression and such. I used to smoke, and the doctor prescribed me welbutrin(sp), which was supposed to help, but it was primarily for depression. I took it for a while and had to quit because for one, it made me feel like I was just a shell of myself...my sense of humor was gone, never laughed, and the biggest reason.....I kind of lost the ability to bite my tongue! It took away my discretion.  Now, I would have never gone on a shooting rampage on it, but I can see how some might get the thought to do it, but not have the proper ability to reason the thought away, especially on high doses maybe. Im a little surprised there is not much discussion going on about this.  Whats scary to me is, every time I go to get a physical, the doctor tells me they (Im assuming pharmaceuticals)  are pushing them to check for depression. Apparently I qualified because I may feel down a few times a year! They offered me a prescription which I laughed off.  All in all, its pretty  disturbing to me.  

   

[AUFAN78 3,926]

5 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Kind of strange that these militias would start claiming credit in the vein of ISIL, but I suppose anything is possible. 

Agree. So the militia leader claims Cruz participated in an exercise recently. With some of these groups, who knows what that even means? Shooting a few hogs among the palmetto?

And just because law enforcement has not found a connection does not mean there isn't one.

Just disappointing that AP and Popehat did not fully vet the story. Even Rachel Maddow questioned the legitimacy.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

11 hours ago, Proud Tiger said:

Speaking of our founders, we went over 200 years without a mass shooting. Only in the last 35 years or so have we had mass shootings. I'm very curious how you know what our founders' envisioned.The number of households having guns has gone down recently. Switzerland has one of the highest % of households owning guns of any countries and thay haven't had the problems we have had.

The Switzerland comparison isn't really valid though.  They have much tighter restrictions on being allowed to own a gun and even the military people who are issued them and keep them at home aren't issued ammunition to keep at home.  All the ammo is kept at the central arsenal. So you can literally have a handgun in your home and you aren't permitted (or able) to use it against an intruder because the gun is issued for national security purposes, not for self-defense.  They even instruct the people who have them to remove the barrel and keep it in a separate place from the rest of the body so that if someone broke in they'd have to locate and steal both parts for it to be worth anything.

They also have a national gun registry for every legally owned firearm in the country.

I don't think either of these things are proposals any NRA or 2nd Amendment advocate would be in favor of.  So I don't think the Switzerland comparison is accurate.

 

 

[aubearcat 2,138]

1 hour ago, RunInRed said:

I'm more concerned with the quantity of output these weapons produce but cede your point.

Indeed. I don’t really think that Aks, SKSs, and possibly all carbine style weapons such as ARsshould be made readily available to the general public. Those style of weapons aren’t really necessary for self defense. Some say it’s for fun or sport but in a limited comparison, I like to drive fast cars fast but I can’t because it just isn’t practical. As far as sporting goes, most hunting rifles hold only three rounds. 

[Barnacle 9,064]

1 minute ago, SaturdayGT said:

the doctor prescribed me welbutrin(sp), which was supposed to help, but it was primarily for depression. I took it for a while and had to quit because for one, it made me feel like I was just a shell of myself...my sense of humor was gone, never laughed, and the biggest reason.....I kind of lost the ability to bite my tongue! It took away my discretion.  Now, I would have never gone on a shooting rampage on it, but I can see how some might get the thought to do it,   

Sitting here talking to my wife about this - she's a clinical pharm. All anti-depressants come with boiler plate warnings about potential to impair judgment, increase suicidal thoughts, etc. There are long-standing concerns that anti-depressants can worsen depression in some individuals, but they haven't been proven in studies and are likely attributed to the underlying depression itself, not the drugs. So, a connection to these types of incidents is pretty attenuated. Now, medication without treatment of underlying mental issues is an issue you can run with, IMO. 

[AUFAN78 3,926]

http://hopelesslypartisan.com/the-nikolas-cruz-white-supremacist-fake-news/

[Strychnine 1,804]

46 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

The Switzerland comparison isn't really valid though.  They have much tighter restrictions on being allowed to own a gun and even the military people who are issued them and keep them at home aren't issued ammunition to keep at home.  All the ammo is kept at the central arsenal. So you can literally have a handgun in your home and you aren't permitted (or able) to use it against an intruder because the gun is issued for national security purposes, not for self-defense.  They even instruct the people who have them to remove the barrel and keep it in a separate place from the rest of the body so that if someone broke in they'd have to locate and steal both parts for it to be worth anything.

They also have a national gun registry for every legally owned firearm in the country.

I don't think either of these things are proposals any NRA or 2nd Amendment advocate would be in favor of.  So I don't think the Switzerland comparison is accurate.

 

As the biggest "assault weapons" enthusiast on the forum, I think I qualify as a 2nd Amendment advocate (not an NRA member).  I have no problem whatsoever with a registry of legal firearms.  In fact, I openly support it as part of a strategy to curtail illegal firearms.  Personally, I think a drastic improvement of our background check system is necessary, and that a national licensing system (with endorsements required for certain firearm types) plus registry would help tremendously.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Just now, Strychnine said:

As the biggest "assault weapons" enthusiast on the forum, I think I qualify as a 2nd Amendment advocate (not an NRA member).  I have no problem whatsoever with a registry of legal firearms.  In fact, I openly support it as part of a strategy to curtail illegal firearms.  Personally, I think a drastic improvement of our background check system is necessary, and that a national licensing system (with endorsements required for certain firearm types) plus registry would help tremendously.

I think yours is a minority position though.  Most of the time any such thing is suggested, all the scaremongers come out suggesting that a national registry is just the first step to gun confiscation.

[Strychnine 1,804]

Just now, TitanTiger said:

I think yours is a minority position though.  Most of the time any such thing is suggested, all the scaremongers come out suggesting that a national registry is just the first step to gun confiscation.

 

That brings us back to one of my earlier points about assault weapon bans; such proposals directly feed scaremonger hysteria.  Lost in the fury and noise are rational proposals (like I mentioned) that are more likely to be effective.  As for the scaremongers about firearm registry, they are always an amusing bunch to me.  For all their concern about the government knowing what firearms they have, they often buy them from dealers (with records), they have registered license plates on their vehicles, and they tend to carry around a phone that can be used to locate them precisely (and is also equipped with a microphone and camera that can be activated remotely).

The whole concept of gun confiscation is laughable as well.  The United States government does not have the resources to go round up everyone's firearms, and whoever enacted confiscation would be voted out before it could be completed.  If firearms were ever banned, there would be a grace period to turn them in lawfully.

[homersapien 11,447]

On 2/15/2018 at 11:43 AM, HVAU said:

This is exactly what I was thinking.  There have been prohibitive laws that emanated from the Federal government despite State policies.  What keeps this from happening with common sense gun control, in my opinion, is money.  The gun lobby has gone off the rails to protect the profits of gun manufacturers, and many legislators have gone with them to protect their campaign funds.

There is a Pandora's box scenario frequently posed, but we've got to start somewhere.  The other option is to just accept that we're a violent society, and, while people (children) are important to us, they're not important enough for us to try anything that might upset the political apple cart.

This.  ^^

There are other aspects that contribute to the problem - many cultural - but the most signifcant element is the mass merchandizing of firearms, particularly firearms that are clearly in the "military class" of weapons.  The NRA is the political arm of the firearms industry and exists solely to service their need for promoting and protecting this market.  (Suggesting reading: "Ricochet - Confessions of a Gun Lobbyist" by Richard Feldman)

A good, more recent, analogy  is the opioid crisis in which the manufacturers of these drugs lobbied congress to exempt them from investigation from the DEA into their practice of supply far, far more opioids than could reasonably required.

It's ultimately about money.  Cost to society be damned.

Of course this is just a manifestation of the greater problem with our system of government which is ultimately far more responsive to moneyed interests than it is to the general population.   Money corrupts politics, always has, always will.  And we are doing nothing to address that.  

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 hour ago, SaturdayGT said:

  Ya know, Ive come to change my stance a lot on the violence that is promoted in video games and TV and such. Its easy to consciously write it off as no big deal, but who knows how it it effects the subconscious of some that may be a little off. ...Im not ready to hang my hat on that and say thats whats going on, but I can no longer write it off anymore.

  Personally, what I think the biggest culprit in all of this is  are some of the prescription drugs they use to treat depression and such. I used to smoke, and the doctor prescribed me welbutrin(sp), which was supposed to help, but it was primarily for depression. I took it for a while and had to quit because for one, it made me feel like I was just a shell of myself...my sense of humor was gone, never laughed, and the biggest reason.....I kind of lost the ability to bite my tongue! It took away my discretion.  Now, I would have never gone on a shooting rampage on it, but I can see how some might get the thought to do it, but not have the proper ability to reason the thought away, especially on high doses maybe. Im a little surprised there is not much discussion going on about this.  Whats scary to me is, every time I go to get a physical, the doctor tells me they (Im assuming pharmaceuticals)  are pushing them to check for depression. Apparently I qualified because I may feel down a few times a year! They offered me a prescription which I laughed off.  All in all, its pretty  disturbing to me.  

Big pharma is absolutely one of the most evil and destructive mechanisms at work today. Greed in general is behind so many of our problems. Can't say my hands are clean, either. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 hour ago, Barnacle said:

For pro-lifers, the two issues should strike similar chords. If abortion paints a dim picture of our society's value for human life, then so should school/mass shootings, etc.

Sure, there are mental health issues present - I don't think anyone on either side of the gun debate denies that. To me, these shootings are a consequence of our modern, materialist society. 

To quote one of my favorite movies: 

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy s*** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off."

We (as a society) forsook the traditional means by which we find purpose in our lives (family, community, even religion/absolute truth) for individual gain, wealth, pleasure and truth a long time ago. Granted, I'm painting with broad strokes here. There is a lot of compassion in this world. There is a lot of solidarity and charity and community. But, all you need to do is turn on the TV or flip through a magazine to see what our society values. Heck, we just elected a reality TV star whose entire persona was built upon an image of wealth, and success. During one episode of The Apprentice, the contestants toured his Manhattan Penthouse. In his bathroom, he had a GOLD TOILET. A f*****g GOLD TOILET. Something to strive for, right?

Chances are, no one stopped to talk to this kid. Likely, few people took sincere interest in him. He wasn't fitting into the mold, and he probably just got overlooked and labeled a "bad" kid with behavioral issues. Probably a lost cause. Apparently kids joked that he would do something like this. Its not like people didn't notice. Nothing to see here, moving along! Mental health problems? I'm sure he had mental health problems, but I promise you that kid has experienced a lot of neglect - and probably because his parents, or his teachers, or his peers were more concerned about their own pursuits than his well-being. I know I'm speculating. 

Anyway, I'm all for good gun-reform - but we all need to assume some level of personal responsibility for how we participate in our society, how we interact with others, how we treat our children, what we teach our children, etc. Gun reform may mitigate against the scope of these incidents, but each of us needs to be taking a long look in the mirror. Those are my thoughts. 

End rant. 

The story of jihadists, skinheads, and just about every other "supremacist"/nationalist/hate group is one of a handful of sick, charismatic leaders and a LOT of disenfranchised young men. It's *always* young dudes who nobody loved and never fit in. 

IIRC, even the Columbine shooters were basically latchkey kids whose parents weren't really paying attention to them. 

Edit: Meant to offer agreement on the rest, too. I think even just replacing the simple struggle to stay clothed and fed with whatever it is we do now is problematic.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

22 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

The story of jihadists, skinheads, and just about every other "supremacist"/nationalist/hate group is one of a handful of sick, charismatic leaders and a LOT of disenfranchised young men. It's *always* young dudes who nobody loved and never fit in. 

IIRC, even the Columbine shooters were basically latchkey kids whose parents weren't really paying attention to them. 

Edit: Meant to offer agreement on the rest, too. I think even just replacing the simple struggle to stay clothed and fed with whatever it is we do now is problematic.

Lots of good points made in this thread but I guess one missing is that so many of our kids aren't being taught values like I was, especially the value of human life. I read this little thing and it brought home the point:

Student...."God why do you allow so much violence in our schools?"

God......"I'm not allowed in schools."

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

4 hours ago, RunInRed said:

Perhaps because I .... never mind.

Created the site? Back to the comment. That one would stand on the graves of victims, in jest, to state their political points is disturbing. 

But you're right, if you want this to be another TiggerDroppings site, then go ahead and post more stuff like that. Would certainly bring a larger crowd and detract competence. 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

3 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

I thought conservatives respected property rights?

I thought he, and you for that matter, would not go as far to stand on the graves of slaughtered children and jokingly poke at opposing political ideologies. Why shouldn't such a post strike a nerve you sicko?

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

3 hours ago, McLoofus said:

It's a perfectly valid comment. 

A perfectly insensitive and incompetent comment. Offers nothing of substance to the conversation. You're a reasonable guy, don't stoop to that low level.