Heads LGBTs win, Tails Christians Lose

[TitanTiger 20,509]

So, a Canadian Christian jeweler custom-made a pair of engagement rings for a lesbian couple, Nicole White and Pam Renouf, at their request. Later, when they found out that the jeweler personally opposes same-sex marriage, they went to pieces and demanded their money back. From the CBC’s report:

“They were great to work with. They seemed to have no issues. They knew the two of us were a same-sex couple,” White said.

“I referred some of my friends to them, just because I did get some good customer service and they had good prices.”

That was before one friend went in to purchase a ring for his girlfriend — and instead found a distressing sign.

It reads: “The sanctity of marriage is under attack. Let’s keep marriage between a man and a woman.”

The couple now believes the rings they ordered will have been tainted by having been fashioned by jeweler Esau Jardon’s hands, given what impure thoughts he holds in his mind. More:

Jardon said he won’t apologize for his beliefs.

“I feel really bad that [White] feels that we would in any way try to hurt or discriminate against her, but we will not retract from what we believe. I cannot say, ‘Well because you feel bad, I will stop believing what I believe,’” he said.

“When I walk on Church Street in Toronto, where I am right now, and I see [LGBT rainbow flags], and I see a lot of signs and a lot of things on public property, I don’t have a problem with them. I accept it. I chose to come to Canada… and we accept the whole package… I don’t discriminate against that, nor do I come and tell them to take them down. For the same reason, I ask to have the same respect in return, especially when it’s in my own business.”

But, after dealing with online bullying and threats, Jardon decided this week to refund the deposit to the couple:

“One of the reasons my family chose to move to Canada was the rights that it offered, the freedom of religion and freedom of speech, both of which at the time seemed to be very limited in Mexico,” he said.

“However, due to posting our religious beliefs, many people in Newfoundland want us to shut down business — that’s what they’ve been telling us.”

He said some threats came with names and others were anonymous.

“One of them states that ‘you better give them the money back or you will be very, very sorry,’” he said.

Let’s understand what happened here. This Christian jeweler agreed to custom-make engagement rings for a lesbian couple, knowing that they were a couple, and treated them politely. But when they found out what he really believed about same-sex marriage, even though the man gave them polite service, and agreed to sell them what they asked for, the lesbian couple balked, and demanded their money back — and the mob threatened the business if they didn’t yield. Which, of course, he did.

You understand, of course, that this is not about getting equal treatment. The lesbian couple received that. This is about demonizing a point of view, and driving those who hold it out of the public square. Just so we’re clear about that.

I bought some olive oil not long ago at a tiny grocery store owned by an Arab Muslim immigrant. If I find out that the merchant supports ISIS, am I entitled to declare my jug of olive oil tainted, and demand a refund? Is a fundamentalist Christian permitted to send her osso buco back to the kitchen if she discovers that homosexual hands cooked it? Of course not. Some delicate snowflakes are more delicate than others.

I’m sorry that Esau Jardon gave in to this intimidation, but I suppose if you are a small businessman, you have no choice once the mob turns on you. It does indicate, though, the next phase in the March of Progress. You must not only bake the cake, or arrange the flowers, or make the ring, you must hold the correct opinion when you do it.

http://www.theameric...tails-they-lose

[autigeremt 6,661]

Did anyone think these groups wanted "equality"? Get ready for revenge 2.0

[japantiger 4,051]

Everyone is equal; some are just more equal than others...

[cooltigger21 0]

Well it isn't surprising in the least. They were never interested in equal treatment. They want to force their belief on everybody else. Disagreement is not allowed. This is liberalism 101. It applies to everything not just SSM.

[AURaptor 1,126]

Thought Police to be called for in 3,2,1...

[DKW 86 7,439]

Everyone is equal; some are just more equal than others...

Bullseye... Said decades ago and never more relevant than today.

[Auctoritas 2,828]

Quick! Let's take one extreme example from another country and use that to justify our fear!

Seriously. I bet if you asked 100 LGBT individuals (or those that support equal rights for them) in the US (not Canada), you'd get 99 that say that this was really stupid. Me among them.

Well it isn't surprising in the least. They were never interested in equal treatment. They want to force their belief on everybody else. Disagreement is not allowed. This is liberalism 101. It applies to everything not just SSM.

And I suppose you'd like to assert that those on the Right don't do that either? Because I could point to several examples of conservative Christians attempting to coerce religious belief by violating the establishment clause.

It has nothing to do with liberalism. It has to do with human nature, especially in such an ideologically divided context in which we are living.

[cooltigger21 0]

Quick! Let's take one extreme example from another country and use that to justify our fear!

Seriously. I bet if you asked 100 LGBT individuals (or those that support equal rights for them) in the US (not Canada), you'd get 99 that say that this was really stupid. Me among them.

Well it isn't surprising in the least. They were never interested in equal treatment. They want to force their belief on everybody else. Disagreement is not allowed. This is liberalism 101. It applies to everything not just SSM.

And I suppose you'd like to assert that those on the Right don't do that either? Because I could point to several examples of conservative Christians attempting to coerce religious belief by violating the establishment clause.

It has nothing to do with liberalism. It has to do with human nature, especially in such an ideologically divided context in which we are living.

Here we go. Surprised it took one of you this long. This is liberalism period. It goes on in all aspects. What do you think the deal with Memories Pizza was all about? What do you think is the idea of making hate speech a crime is all about? Liberalism can't win on the merits of the argument so they force it through the judicial system. No christian has ever tried to set up a state religion which is what the establishment clause is all about. What about forcing people to pay for abortion coverage even if they oppose it. This isn't isolated. Religious belief is under a full scale assault from many different fronts.

[Weegle777 78]

Actually CT, religious belief isn't under attack, Christianity is. If I were a muslim, hindu, or buddhist, it would make me wonder why no one really opposes my religion and deity.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

So, a Canadian Christian jeweler custom-made a pair of engagement rings for a lesbian couple, Nicole White and Pam Renouf, at their request. Later, when they found out that the jeweler personally opposes same-sex marriage, they went to pieces and demanded their money back. From the CBC’s report:

“They were great to work with. They seemed to have no issues. They knew the two of us were a same-sex couple,” White said.

“I referred some of my friends to them, just because I did get some good customer service and they had good prices.”

That was before one friend went in to purchase a ring for his girlfriend — and instead found a distressing sign.

It reads: “The sanctity of marriage is under attack. Let’s keep marriage between a man and a woman.”

The couple now believes the rings they ordered will have been tainted by having been fashioned by jeweler Esau Jardon’s hands, given what impure thoughts he holds in his mind. More:

Jardon said he won’t apologize for his beliefs.

“I feel really bad that [White] feels that we would in any way try to hurt or discriminate against her, but we will not retract from what we believe. I cannot say, ‘Well because you feel bad, I will stop believing what I believe,’” he said.

“When I walk on Church Street in Toronto, where I am right now, and I see [LGBT rainbow flags], and I see a lot of signs and a lot of things on public property, I don’t have a problem with them. I accept it. I chose to come to Canada… and we accept the whole package… I don’t discriminate against that, nor do I come and tell them to take them down. For the same reason, I ask to have the same respect in return, especially when it’s in my own business.”

But, after dealing with online bullying and threats, Jardon decided this week to refund the deposit to the couple:

“One of the reasons my family chose to move to Canada was the rights that it offered, the freedom of religion and freedom of speech, both of which at the time seemed to be very limited in Mexico,” he said.

“However, due to posting our religious beliefs, many people in Newfoundland want us to shut down business — that’s what they’ve been telling us.”

He said some threats came with names and others were anonymous.

“One of them states that ‘you better give them the money back or you will be very, very sorry,’” he said.

Let’s understand what happened here. This Christian jeweler agreed to custom-make engagement rings for a lesbian couple, knowing that they were a couple, and treated them politely. But when they found out what he really believed about same-sex marriage, even though the man gave them polite service, and agreed to sell them what they asked for, the lesbian couple balked, and demanded their money back — and the mob threatened the business if they didn’t yield. Which, of course, he did.

You understand, of course, that this is not about getting equal treatment. The lesbian couple received that. This is about demonizing a point of view, and driving those who hold it out of the public square. Just so we’re clear about that.

I bought some olive oil not long ago at a tiny grocery store owned by an Arab Muslim immigrant. If I find out that the merchant supports ISIS, am I entitled to declare my jug of olive oil tainted, and demand a refund? Is a fundamentalist Christian permitted to send her osso buco back to the kitchen if she discovers that homosexual hands cooked it? Of course not. Some delicate snowflakes are more delicate than others.

I’m sorry that Esau Jardon gave in to this intimidation, but I suppose if you are a small businessman, you have no choice once the mob turns on you. It does indicate, though, the next phase in the March of Progress. You must not only bake the cake, or arrange the flowers, or make the ring, you must hold the correct opinion when you do it.

http://www.theameric...tails-they-lose

Conservative politics is the hope of Christianity and humanity?

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Actually CT, religious belief isn't under attack, Christianity is. If I were a muslim, hindu, or buddhist, it would make me wonder why no one really opposes my religion and deity.

I agree! I believe there is a political faction in this country that will stop at nothing in their attempt to replace the love of Christ with their own political ideology as the centerpiece of Christianity.

[WarTim 3,457]

Actually CT, religious belief isn't under attack, Christianity is. If I were a muslim, hindu, or buddhist, it would make me wonder why no one really opposes my religion and deity.

100% Correct!!!

[TitanTiger 20,509]

Quick! Let's take one extreme example from another country and use that to justify our fear!

Seriously. I bet if you asked 100 LGBT individuals (or those that support equal rights for them) in the US (not Canada), you'd get 99 that say that this was really stupid. Me among them.

I think you're kidding yourself if you think there's some vast difference in the culture and opinions of Canadian and American supporters of gay marriage on this matter. But I love to continuing use of The Law of Merited Impossibility. “It’s a complete absurdity to believe that Christians will suffer a single thing from the expansion of gay rights, and boy, do they deserve what they’re going to get.”

Conservative politics is the hope of Christianity and humanity?

Qué? Your question does not follow from anything I posted.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Quick! Let's take one extreme example from another country and use that to justify our fear!

Seriously. I bet if you asked 100 LGBT individuals (or those that support equal rights for them) in the US (not Canada), you'd get 99 that say that this was really stupid. Me among them.

I think you're kidding yourself if you think there's some vast difference in the culture and opinions of Canadian and American supporters of gay marriage on this matter. But I love to continuing use of The Law of Merited Impossibility. “It’s a complete absurdity to believe that Christians will suffer a single thing from the expansion of gay rights, and boy, do they deserve what they’re going to get.”

Conservative politics is the hope of Christianity and humanity?

Qué? Your question does not follow from anything I posted.

Funny, you cited a "conservative" source, not a Christian one. Are the two becoming synonymous? Any chance, any at all, that "conservatism" is corrupting Christianity?

[TitanTiger 20,509]

Funny, you cited a "conservative" source, not a Christian one. Are the two becoming synonymous? Any chance, any at all, that "conservatism" is corrupting Christianity?

It doesn't matter whether I quoted a conservative source, a Christian source or MSNBC. The issue was that this situation happened at all.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Funny, you cited a "conservative" source, not a Christian one. Are the two becoming synonymous? Any chance, any at all, that "conservatism" is corrupting Christianity?

It doesn't matter whether I quoted a conservative source, a Christian source or MSNBC. The issue was that this situation happened at all.

Rather convenient, a political opinion source for views that claim a religious basis. Who is really promoting the "war on Christianity"? Why? Are you being fooled? Used? Deceived? What do you see as the real motive here, righteousness or power?

[TitanTiger 20,509]

Funny, you cited a "conservative" source, not a Christian one. Are the two becoming synonymous? Any chance, any at all, that "conservatism" is corrupting Christianity?

It doesn't matter whether I quoted a conservative source, a Christian source or MSNBC. The issue was that this situation happened at all.

Rather convenient, a political opinion source for views that claim a religious basis. Who is really promoting the "war on Christianity"? Why? Are you being fooled? Used? Deceived? What do you see as the real motive here, righteousness or power?

You seem to want to discuss a different subject than the one I posted. I don't really care nor did I put forth anything on these matters you've brought up.

I'm simply pointing out a situation that illustrates that Christians really seem to be in a no-win situation here. To the point where you can't even actually provide the service asked for if you ever put anything out there that expresses your real views on the issue.

If you'd like to dig down on the questions you're so interested it though, you're welcome to start a new thread.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Funny, you cited a "conservative" source, not a Christian one. Are the two becoming synonymous? Any chance, any at all, that "conservatism" is corrupting Christianity?

It doesn't matter whether I quoted a conservative source, a Christian source or MSNBC. The issue was that this situation happened at all.

Rather convenient, a political opinion source for views that claim a religious basis. Who is really promoting the "war on Christianity"? Why? Are you being fooled? Used? Deceived? What do you see as the real motive here, righteousness or power?

You seem to want to discuss a different subject than the one I posted. I don't really care nor did I put forth anything on these matters you've brought up.

I'm simply pointing out a situation that illustrates that Christians really seem to be in a no-win situation here. To the point where you can't even actually provide the service asked for if you ever put anything out there that expresses your real views on the issue.

If you'd like to dig down on the questions you're so interested it though, you're welcome to start a new thread.

No need for that. My question to you is simple. Is this truly about Christians and Christianity or, is this really about conservatives and conservative politics. I think you just don't like the question. I can understand that. I'm not trying to make you mad.

[TitanTiger 20,509]

No need for that. My question to you is simple. Is this truly about Christians and Christianity or, is this really about conservatives and conservative politics. I think you just don't like the question. I can understand that. I'm not trying to make you mad.

It's about Christians and how they are to deal with this developing situation where their faith, gay marriage rights and being involved in the business world intersect. What do you do? Shut up about your beliefs altogether? Get out of the business world? Refuse to provide services at all for these weddings? Some combinations of the three?

I don't like the question. But it's because you seem to think anytime this issue is broached that this take of yours is all it boils down to.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

No need for that. My question to you is simple. Is this truly about Christians and Christianity or, is this really about conservatives and conservative politics. I think you just don't like the question. I can understand that. I'm not trying to make you mad.

It's about Christians and how they are to deal with this developing situation where their faith, gay marriage rights and being involved in the business world intersect. What do you do? Shut up about your beliefs altogether? Get out of the business world? Refuse to provide services at all for these weddings? Some combinations of the three?

I don't like the question. But it's because you seem to think anytime this issue is broached that this take of yours is all it boils down to.

You're right. I believe it has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with conservative politics and, the exploitation of Christians, the Church, and Christianity.

I am sorry if my opinion angers you. However, I believe you are promoting the "war on Christianity" and, I believe that "war" is about politics, not Christianity. I am not trying to tell you that I am right and you are wrong. I am asking you to think about it.

[TitanTiger 20,509]

No need for that. My question to you is simple. Is this truly about Christians and Christianity or, is this really about conservatives and conservative politics. I think you just don't like the question. I can understand that. I'm not trying to make you mad.

It's about Christians and how they are to deal with this developing situation where their faith, gay marriage rights and being involved in the business world intersect. What do you do? Shut up about your beliefs altogether? Get out of the business world? Refuse to provide services at all for these weddings? Some combinations of the three?

I don't like the question. But it's because you seem to think anytime this issue is broached that this take of yours is all it boils down to.

You're right. I believe it has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with conservative politics and, the exploitation of Christians, the Church, and Christianity.

I am sorry if my opinion angers you. However, I believe you are promoting the "war on Christianity" and, I believe that "war" is about politics, not Christianity. I am not trying to tell you that I am right and you are wrong. I am asking you to think about it.

It doesn't anger me. I just think it's BS. Or not BS all the time, but not applicable in nearly as many instances as you seem to believe.

I don't think it's about politics, other than the use of them to hammer people who don't concur with their opinion that gay marriage is super wonderful. And Christians are essentially damned if they do, damned if they don't. If you decline your services for a gay wedding, you get attacked for that. If you abandon the public square and the prophetic call to speak the truth, you compromise your faith. If you provide the services but let it be known that you hold to an orthodox Christian understanding of marriage and sexuality, then you still get the hate and attacks. I mean, this guy by the girls' own account was perfectly nice and cordial with them, helped them design and pick out the rings and everything. But because he had a sign somewhere in his shop (that they apparently didn't even notice before), his Facebook page is defaced, he gets threats and calls for boycotts and the lesbian couple demands their money back.

It seems as if the only acceptable way to handle it from the perspective of the culture at large is to either get out of the business world or completely keep your beliefs to yourself at all times.

[homersapien 11,427]

No need for that. My question to you is simple. Is this truly about Christians and Christianity or, is this really about conservatives and conservative politics. I think you just don't like the question. I can understand that. I'm not trying to make you mad.

It's about Christians and how they are to deal with this developing situation where their faith, gay marriage rights and being involved in the business world intersect. What do you do? Shut up about your beliefs altogether? Get out of the business world? Refuse to provide services at all for these weddings? Some combinations of the three?

I don't like the question. But it's because you seem to think anytime this issue is broached that this take of yours is all it boils down to.

You're right. I believe it has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with conservative politics and, the exploitation of Christians, the Church, and Christianity.

I am sorry if my opinion angers you. However, I believe you are promoting the "war on Christianity" and, I believe that "war" is about politics, not Christianity. I am not trying to tell you that I am right and you are wrong. I am asking you to think about it.

It doesn't anger me. I just think it's BS. Or not BS all the time, but not applicable in nearly as many instances as you seem to believe.

I don't think it's about politics, other than the use of them to hammer people who don't concur with their opinion that gay marriage is super wonderful. And Christians are essentially damned if they do, damned if they don't. If you decline your services for a gay wedding, you get attacked for that. If you abandon the public square and the prophetic call to speak the truth, you compromise your faith. If you provide the services but let it be known that you hold to an orthodox Christian understanding of marriage and sexuality, then you still get the hate and attacks. I mean, this guy by the girls' own account was perfectly nice and cordial with them, helped them design and pick out the rings and everything. But because he had a sign somewhere in his shop (that they apparently didn't even notice before), his Facebook page is defaced, he gets threats and calls for boycotts and the lesbian couple demands their money back.

It seems as if the only acceptable way to handle it from the perspective of the culture at large is to either get out of the business world or completely keep your beliefs to yourself at all times.

Being as gay people are perfectly normal humans - only with a different sexual orientation than the majority of us - and considering there are quite of few of them - even if they constitute only 3% of the population:

Do you really find it all that threatening to find out there's a few of their numbers that are just nutty?

You can take all of the examples of homosexual "hostility" to Christians you can find on the internet and together they don't merit the sort of fear you exude.

It's fine to highlight and harp on a particular example of a homosexual acting like an ass when confronted with Christian rejection. And I agree if this article is accurate, they were acting like a holes.

But IMO, to portray this as a generalized threat - much less war - on Christianity is little over the top, especially for you, as that's not your style.

Gays are not at war with Christianity. Hell a lot of them are Christian.

[homersapien 11,427]

Furthermore, I agree with ICHY that these reactions are more political than religious. The Christian may go into it with a religious perspective, but it's likely going to be received as political opposition.

That's what naturally happens when you mix religion with politics.

Not saying Christians don't have a right to bring their religion to politics, just don't cop a persecution complex about your religion when you get a political reaction from someone who perceives this as a political issue.

[TitanTiger 20,509]

Being as gay people are perfectly normal humans - only with a different sexual orientation than the majority of us - and considering there are quite of few of them - even if they constitute only 3% of the population:

Do you really find it all that threatening to find out there's a few of their numbers that are just nutty?

You know this isn't limited to just 3% of the population or even as subset of that. It's them plus their nutty supporters that will brook no dissent on this issue.

You can take all of the examples of homosexual "hostility" to Christians you can find on the internet and together they don't merit the sort of fear you exude.

It's fine to highlight and harp on a particular example of a homosexual acting like an ass when confronted with Christian rejection. And I agree if this article is accurate, they were acting like a holes.

But IMO, to portray this as a generalized threat - much less war - on Christianity is little over the top, especially for you, as that's not your style.

But gays are not at war with Christianity. Hell a lot of them are Christian.

I think it is part of a general pattern that's becoming more and more common. And that before it's even become legal nationwide. Whether it's getting a CEO fired, threatening a pizza shop and defacing their webpage, the photographer in NM, the bakers in Oregon, the florist in Washington, the Methodist church that owns a seaside pavilion in NJ, and the list goes on, there seems to be a growing problem with this. But these two and their supporters have taken it a further step. Not only must you provide the requested service, you must hold the right views while doing it or keep it to yourself.

I would think anyone with a liberalized view of free speech and religion would find this sort of thing more than just "stupid" or the work of some a-holes, but troubling.

Furthermore, I agree with ICHY that these reactions are more political than religious. The Christian may go into it with a religious perspective, but it's likely going to be received as political opposition.

That's what naturally happens when you mix religion with politics.

Not saying Christians don't have a right to bring their religion to politics, just don't cop a persecution complex about your religion when you get a political reaction from someone who perceives this as a political issue.

Well like I said, I don't agree that this situation was political.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Being as gay people are perfectly normal humans - only with a different sexual orientation than the majority of us - and considering there are quite of few of them - even if they constitute only 3% of the population:

Do you really find it all that threatening to find out there's a few of their numbers that are just nutty?

You know this isn't limited to just 3% of the population or even as subset of that. It's them plus their nutty supporters that will brook no dissent on this issue.

You can take all of the examples of homosexual "hostility" to Christians you can find on the internet and together they don't merit the sort of fear you exude.

It's fine to highlight and harp on a particular example of a homosexual acting like an ass when confronted with Christian rejection. And I agree if this article is accurate, they were acting like a holes.

But IMO, to portray this as a generalized threat - much less war - on Christianity is little over the top, especially for you, as that's not your style.

But gays are not at war with Christianity. Hell a lot of them are Christian.

I think it is part of a general pattern that's becoming more and more common. And that before it's even become legal nationwide. Whether it's getting a CEO fired, threatening a pizza shop and defacing their webpage, the photographer in NM, the bakers in Oregon, the florist in Washington, the Methodist church that owns a seaside pavilion in NJ, and the list goes on, there seems to be a growing problem with this. But these two and their supporters have taken it a further step. Not only must you provide the requested service, you must hold the right views while doing it or keep it to yourself.

I would think anyone with a liberalized view of free speech and religion would find this sort of thing more than just "stupid" or the work of some a-holes, but troubling.

Furthermore, I agree with ICHY that these reactions are more political than religious. The Christian may go into it with a religious perspective, but it's likely going to be received as political opposition.

That's what naturally happens when you mix religion with politics.

Not saying Christians don't have a right to bring their religion to politics, just don't cop a persecution complex about your religion when you get a political reaction from someone who perceives this as a political issue.

Well like I said, I don't agree that this situation was political.

Look at your source again. That is political whether you accept it, or not.