Article "shut down the prayer"

[L I G E R 120]

I have no problem with us having a voluntary chaplain, but I do agree that all decisions Auburn makes with regards to its administration and football program should have absolutely nothing to do with spirituality.

Remove that non-starter and many of the  unqualified administrators and coaches, that otherwise would have no quantifiable reason for their current positions would no longer be employed by the university.

[Farmer Brown 2,391]

Every individual should have the right to free religious expression. Anyone should have the right to not participate in it. I worked as a chaplain in the Juvenile Justice System for many years. Every activity that was deemed "spiritual", was strictly voluntary. If they were not interested, I never pursued them. If they asked questions, then that was a different story, yet the institution had to allow those kids to express themselves spiritually if they so desired. If a Auburn player wants to participate, then he should be allowed to. If a player doesn't want to participate, he shouldn't have to. I bet that is exactly the way it is at Auburn.

[NoALtiger 3,850]

Ha, these guys again. Some people have entirely too much time on their hands. 

[clwn 336]

It's not forced on anyone. Sure no player has a gun pointed at their head saying "pray."  Sure some will argue about peer pressure which will be grasping at straws. What harm is it causing? Just seems so many, like this FFRF, are hilarious. Spend all their time on something they are against and don't believe in. What a waste of time. If they don't believe in any of it then why do they care? Spend your time not worrying about what others think or believe in. Always wanting to stir up problems. Sounds like usual demon work.

[gr82be 14,423]

3 minutes ago, Farmer Brown said:

Every individual should have the right to free religious expression. Anyone should have the right to not participate in it. I worked as a chaplain in the Juvenile Justice System for many years. Every activity that was deemed "spiritual", was strictly voluntary. If they were not interested, I never pursued them. If they asked questions, then that was a different story, yet the institution had to allow those kids to express themselves spiritually if they so desired. If a Auburn player wants to participate, then he should be allowed to. If a player doesn't want to participate, he shouldn't have to. I bet that is exactly the way it is at Auburn.

Very good post. Christians should live a life that makes others ask those questions you mentioned about what's going on in their life. If they do that then the opportunity to share is there. 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

This organization "legitimates" itself by threats of suit. Sometimes they prevail, other times they do not. It's a truly despicable tactic, but unfortunately it works for them. They will argue that Chette is "held out" as a public employee and thus there is a violation of the Establishment Clause. His name and auburn email address appear on the staff directory page at auburntigers.com. However, it only says he is the campus director for FCA and the state director for urban ministries for FCA. Arguments of fact would likely favor Auburn. I would expect generations of football players would give sworn statements on his behalf. If I was involved, I would not turn over one single document until FFRF's demand is followed by the signature of a Judge. Of course, this assumes FFRF files suit. 

[AuburnEagle79 2,165]

This is easy. Prayer still happens, if you don't want to be part of it, don't be. I don't see Malzahn to be a guy that would force Christianity on anyone. Ive sat behind him at church, so I know he'd love if all players shared his faith, but I doubt he's pushy. 

[PowerOfDixieland 3,226]

On 10/29/2018 at 8:31 PM, L I G E R said:

I have no problem with us having a voluntary chaplain, but I do agree that all decisions Auburn makes with regards to its administration and football program should have absolutely nothing to do with spirituality.

Remove that non-starter and many of the otherwise unqualified administrators and coaches, that otherwise would have no quantifiable reason for their current positions would no longer be employed by the university.

While I am a self professed Jesus freak (I love that Man), you are absolutley correct.  The problem as I see it is that it was a personal, private position that was leveraged by the former AD for his own gain.  The opportunity and hypocrisy it created cast Christianity in a horrible and stereotypical (milquetoast) light.  Praise God that component has been removed.

[jmcrosson 203]

This is ridiculous. If there was a form of “pray to play”, for sure current or former players/coaches would have talked about that by now. In our world today, there are plenty of religious sects, atheists, etc that can advocate for themselves within auburn without the “assistance” from a group of offense seekers in Wisconsin. Give me a freaking break. This is voluntary, and my gripe is that the Christians who want to practice their faith are having their rights to organize and practice infringed upon. Like, if atheists want to get together in Oolaga, TN (or insert random place), just once I’d love to see some Christian coalition try to shut it down because they’re offended....just to give them a taste of their own stupid medicine. 

[homersapien 11,367]

On 10/29/2018 at 11:26 AM, musicitytiger said:

In God We Trust, that’s how we do it down here.  How much do we all need to donate to enable the university to continue to tell this group to where they can go?

Any particular God, or all of 'em?

[CleCoTiger 1,957]

On 10/29/2018 at 9:53 AM, aubiefifty said:

if players are not being forced to pray i say let them have at it.

 

Dear John, 

As you know, we've been working real hard in our town to get prayer back in the schools. Finally, the school board approved a plan of teacher-led prayer with the children participating at their own option. Children not wishing to participate were to be allowed to stand out in the hallway during the prayer time. We hoped someone would sue us so we could go all the way to the Supreme Court and get that old devil-inspired ruling reversed.  

Naturally, we were all excited by the school board's action. As you know, our own little Billy (not so little, any more, though) is now in the second grade. Of course, Margaret and I explained to him no matter what the other kids did, he was going to stay in the classroom and participate.  

After the first day of school, I asked him, "How did the prayer time go?

"Fine."

"Did many kids go out into the hallway?"

"Two."

"Excellent. How did you like your teacher's prayer?"

"It was different, Dad. Real different from the way you pray."

"Oh? Like how?"

"She said, 'Hail, Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners...'"

 

The next day I talked with the principal. I politely explained I wasn't prejudiced against Catholics but I would appreciate Billy being transferred to a non-Catholic teacher. The principal said it would be done right away. At supper that evening I asked Billy to say the blessings. He slipped out of his chair, sat cross-legged on the floor, closed his eyes, raised his hands palms up and began to hum. You'd better believe I was at the principal's office at eight o'clock the next morning!  

"Look," I said. "I don't really know much about these Transcendental Meditationists, but I would feel a lot more comfortable if you could move Billy to a room where the teacher practices an older, more established religion.'" That afternoon I met Billy as soon as he walked in the door after school.

 

"I don't think you're going to like Mrs. Nakasone's prayer, either, Dad."

"Out with it."

"She kept calling God 'O Great Buddha...'"

 

The following morning I was waiting for the principal in the school parking lot.

 

"Look, I don't want my son praying to the Eternal Spirit of whatever or to Buddha. I want him to have a teacher that prays in Jesus' name!"

"What about Bertha Smith?"

"Excellent."

 

I could hardly wait to hear about Mrs. Smith's prayer. I was standing on the front steps of the school when the final bell rang.

 

"Well?" I asked Billy as we walked towards the car.

"Okay."

"Okay what?"

"Mrs. Smith asked God to bless us and ended her prayer in Jesus' name, amen -- just like you."

I breathed a sigh of relief. "Now we're getting someplace."

"She even taught us a verse of scripture about prayer," said Billy.

I beamed. "Wonderful. What was the verse?"

"Let's see..." he mused for a moment. " 'And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.'"

We had reached the car. "Fantastic," I said, reaching for the door handle. Then I paused. I couldn't place the scripture.

"Billy, did Mrs. Smith say what book that verse was from?"

"Third Nephi, chapter 19, verse 18."

"Third what?"

"Nephi," he said, "It's in the Book of Mormon."  

The school board doesn't meet for a month. I've given Billy very definite instructions that at prayer time each day he's to go out into the hallway. I plan to be at that board meeting. If they don't do something about this situation, I'll sue. I'll take it all the way to the Supreme Court if I have to. I don't need the schools or anybody else teaching my son about religion. We can take care of that ourselves at home and at church, thank you very much.  

Give my love to Sandi and the boys.  

Your friend,

 

Jack

[homersapien 11,367]

First, I don't get mixing football with religion, but if that's what some of the players want to do, and it's not sanctioned by the university, fine. 

But it seems to me having an official (Christian) team chaplain - pushes that line (regarding sanctioning), no matter how he's paid - certainly from an appearance standpoint.

And not to change the subject, but if we can have a team chaplain, we ought to damn well have a team sports psychologist. 

And we can pay him/her directly.

 

[homersapien 11,367]

On 10/29/2018 at 1:14 PM, Swamp Eagle said:

It's been well-documented that it is voluntary. Never will I understand people who organize armies against an enemy they don't believe exists.

 

The existence of churches and organized religious groups is hardly in doubt, by atheists, agnostics, or believers.  History tells us that churches with excessive influence and power can be malevolent entities to personal freedom, and freedom requires "constant vigilance".

Finally, implying they are attempting to characterize (your) God as the "enemy" is fraught with obvious dangers. In fact, it sort of proves my point.

[AUGunsmith 666]

Christians, the people who love freedom of religion as long as it's theirs 😂😂😂

 

 

[homersapien 11,367]

23 hours ago, AU64 said:

Amen there.....and just try to stand up to some professor with an anti-religion agenda and see what happens....

What happens?

[CleCoTiger 1,957]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

What happens?

You know. It.  It happens. 

(Didn't you see Tom Hanks in the now classic Forrest Gump? )

[homersapien 11,367]

On 10/29/2018 at 2:15 PM, ArgoEagle said:

We just need to pray that these heathen people will have a change of heart. They are attacking Christianity plain and simple. If the players choose to pray together voluntarily and are not forced or threatened to do so, then it shouldn't be an issue with outsiders. They are fighting a battle they are destined to lose and are their own worst enemies.

That also applies to many self-described Christians.

[AUFriction 1,179]

First of all, this should be in the political forum...

 

The issue is pressure to conform. If someone is leading a prayer and someone subscribes to a different religion or no religion, they may feel pressure to pray anyway at risk of being harassed for not doing so. 

I ran into a real life example of this. I used to work for a county agency (that I’ll leave anonymous), and they would pray before lunches and department parties. I had a Buddhist coworker who does not pray in the way that Christians do. She felt pressure to “fake pray” because she was concerned that she’s be ostracized if she didn’t. That said, being a devout Buddhist, she felt she was doing something wrong because she felt forced to participate in a Christian prayer.

I see both sides of the issue because there’s legitimate arguments to both sides. To deny the prayer is to restrict religious freedom. But to allow it in a government owned institution is establishing a religion.

[AUsince72 11,084]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Any particular God, or all of 'em?

In fairness, atheists denounce the idea of ANY god.

So, for this purpose, ANY god will do....right?  Or is this group only attacking Christianity?

Betcha if the players were actually REQUIRED to say "namaste", perform yoga, and pray to the princess of sand & water in order to get playing time, you'd never hear from this so-called "religious watch-dog group".

I know Christians get a bad rap, often due to other Christians that are gleefully pointed out by detractors, as hypocrites.  However, secular people groups conveniently overlook their own hypocrisy.

If these players & coaches are freely expressing their beliefs and not forcing anyone not if like mind to "have" to do so, then what should this group, or ANY other group care? 

So WHO exactly is forcing their will on others in this case?  Christian players & coaches expressing their beliefs protected by the Constitution or this "watch-dog group" trying to squash their rights?  Ironically hypocritical, huh...

EDIT:. Just adding, I'm only referring to THIS particular case.  As for "church & state" conversations beyond, each case has it's own nuances & discussions.  I'm not going there in this thread.

[alexava 6,973]

1 hour ago, CleCoTiger said:

 

Dear John, 

As you know, we've been working real hard in our town to get prayer back in the schools. Finally, the school board approved a plan of teacher-led prayer with the children participating at their own option. Children not wishing to participate were to be allowed to stand out in the hallway during the prayer time. We hoped someone would sue us so we could go all the way to the Supreme Court and get that old devil-inspired ruling reversed.  

Naturally, we were all excited by the school board's action. As you know, our own little Billy (not so little, any more, though) is now in the second grade. Of course, Margaret and I explained to him no matter what the other kids did, he was going to stay in the classroom and participate.  

After the first day of school, I asked him, "How did the prayer time go?

"Fine."

"Did many kids go out into the hallway?"

"Two."

"Excellent. How did you like your teacher's prayer?"

"It was different, Dad. Real different from the way you pray."

"Oh? Like how?"

"She said, 'Hail, Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners...'"

 

The next day I talked with the principal. I politely explained I wasn't prejudiced against Catholics but I would appreciate Billy being transferred to a non-Catholic teacher. The principal said it would be done right away. At supper that evening I asked Billy to say the blessings. He slipped out of his chair, sat cross-legged on the floor, closed his eyes, raised his hands palms up and began to hum. You'd better believe I was at the principal's office at eight o'clock the next morning!  

"Look," I said. "I don't really know much about these Transcendental Meditationists, but I would feel a lot more comfortable if you could move Billy to a room where the teacher practices an older, more established religion.'" That afternoon I met Billy as soon as he walked in the door after school.

 

"I don't think you're going to like Mrs. Nakasone's prayer, either, Dad."

"Out with it."

"She kept calling God 'O Great Buddha...'"

 

The following morning I was waiting for the principal in the school parking lot.

 

"Look, I don't want my son praying to the Eternal Spirit of whatever or to Buddha. I want him to have a teacher that prays in Jesus' name!"

"What about Bertha Smith?"

"Excellent."

 

I could hardly wait to hear about Mrs. Smith's prayer. I was standing on the front steps of the school when the final bell rang.

 

"Well?" I asked Billy as we walked towards the car.

"Okay."

"Okay what?"

"Mrs. Smith asked God to bless us and ended her prayer in Jesus' name, amen -- just like you."

I breathed a sigh of relief. "Now we're getting someplace."

"She even taught us a verse of scripture about prayer," said Billy.

I beamed. "Wonderful. What was the verse?"

"Let's see..." he mused for a moment. " 'And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.'"

We had reached the car. "Fantastic," I said, reaching for the door handle. Then I paused. I couldn't place the scripture.

"Billy, did Mrs. Smith say what book that verse was from?"

"Third Nephi, chapter 19, verse 18."

"Third what?"

"Nephi," he said, "It's in the Book of Mormon."  

The school board doesn't meet for a month. I've given Billy very definite instructions that at prayer time each day he's to go out into the hallway. I plan to be at that board meeting. If they don't do something about this situation, I'll sue. I'll take it all the way to the Supreme Court if I have to. I don't need the schools or anybody else teaching my son about religion. We can take care of that ourselves at home and at church, thank you very much.  

Give my love to Sandi and the boys.  

Your friend,

 

Jack

I knew a very real situation very similar to this with a man wanting to dictate the structure of the prayer and didn’t want a female teacher or administrator leading it. It was decades ago but so ugly there are devout Christians in the community who SUPPORT removing prayer from schools. 

[Swamp Eagle 5,134]

47 minutes ago, homersapien said:

 

The existence of churches and organized religious groups is hardly in doubt, by atheists, agnostics, or believers.  History tells us that churches with excessive influence and power can be malevolent entities to personal freedom, and freedom requires "constant vigilance".

Finally, implying they are attempting to characterize (your) God as the "enemy" is fraught with obvious dangers. In fact, it sort of proves my point.

Does it really make you feel better to say that? I'll digress and let you have your moment. 

[selias 2,398]

24 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

In fairness, atheists denounce the idea of ANY god.

So, for this purpose, ANY god will do....right?  Or is this group only attacking Christianity?

Betcha if the players were actually REQUIRED to say "namaste", perform yoga, and pray to the princess of sand & water in order to get playing time, you'd never hear from this so-called "religious watch-dog group".

I know Christians get a bad rap, often due to other Christians that are gleefully pointed out by detractors, as hypocrites.  However, secular people groups conveniently overlook their own hypocrisy.

If these players & coaches are freely expressing their beliefs and not forcing anyone not if like mind to "have" to do so, then what should this group, or ANY other group care? 

So WHO exactly is forcing their will on others in this case?  Christian players & coaches expressing their beliefs protected by the Constitution or this "watch-dog group" trying to squash their rights.  Ironically hypocritical, huh...

EDIT:. Just adding, I'm only referring to THIS particular case.  As for "church & state" conversations beyond, each case has it's own nuances & discussions.  I'm not going there in this thread.

As someone that's a fan of the FFRF, it's not only Christians they monitor. It may seem like it from a PR standpoint but, that has more to do with the demographics of those continually pushing for religion to be included in state-sponsored/sanctioned activities.

[JMassie11 1,610]

Has it physically hurt any of you personally? Has the prayer mentally hurt any of you? I can guarantee the answer to both is no. If you don’t like it don’t watch it. Plain and simple. 

[AUsince72 11,084]

3 hours ago, selias said:

As someone that's a fan of the FFRF, it's not only Christians they monitor. It may seem like it from a PR standpoint but, that has more to do with the demographics of those continually pushing for religion to be included in state-sponsored/sanctioned activities.

I can't speak to them beyond what I'm seeing here.  And I understand what you are saying about WHO is "pushing" for religion to be included.  

My two counters are merely this...

1) I've never read or seen any stories of any secular "religion watch-dog groups" standing up to other religions.  If they did, those on the left would "crucify" them.  In the US of A the only religion it's okay to attack is Christianity.  Any attack on a non-Christian religion is considered intolerance and bigotry by liberals & the media.  

2) As for Christians "pushing religion" into state-sponsored/sanctioned activities.  I actually agree that we (Christians) should not push for it to be included.  Jesus Himself said "render unto caeser, what is caesers".  I have no problem separating church and state.  However, many (like me) simply don't want to lose our right to pray or possess a Bible, wherever we may be.  I've heard of instances of kids in school being sent home for simply bringing their Bible and some other kid or parent complained.  Yet the kid with the Dio or Slayer concert T is perfectly okay.  Where's the fairness in that?  

My point... There are Christian hypocrites (and they will answer for that to God) but there is just as much hypocrisy from secular/athiest people as well, so NOBODY should be sanctimonious about it.  We CAN all get along.  

[selias 2,398]

5 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

I can't speak to them beyond what I'm seeing here.  And I understand what you are saying about WHO is "pushing" for religion to be included.  

My two counters are merely this...

1) I've never read or seen any stories of any secular "religion watch-dog groups" standing up to other religions.  If they did, those on the left would "crucify" them.  In the US of A the only religion it's okay to attack is Christianity.  Any attack on a non-Christian religion is considered intolerance and bigotry by liberals & the media.  

2) As for Christians "pushing religion" into state-sponsored/sanctioned activities.  I actually agree that we (Christians) should not push for it to be included.  Jesus Himself said "render unto caeser, what is caesers".  I have no problem separating church and state.  However, many (like me) simply don't want our right to pray or possess a Bible, wherever we may be.  I've heard if instances of kids in school being sent home for simply bringing their Bible and some other kid or parent complained.  Yet the kid with the Dio or Slayer concert T is perfectly okay.  Where's the fairness in that?  

My point... There are Christian hypocrites (and they will answer for that to God) but there is just as much hypocrisy from secular/athiest people as well, so NOBODY should be sanctimonious about it.  We CAN all get along.  

I'm feeling lazy and I just poured a whisky so I'm not going to go looking but, I've seen isolated cases where a secular group complained about a non-Christian religion. It's just not as common because of the demographics I mentioned.

Regarding your #2, I don't know of a reputable secular organization having a problem with individuals practicing their faith of choice on their time. I don't care if a public school teacher prays or carries a Bible. I do care if that individual uses access to a captive audience to proselytize.